http://www.insidebayarea.com/tim-kawakami/ci_18179859?source=rss Then there is the matter of getting the right deal for Ellis, who is due $11 million in each of the next three seasons. After checking with a few NBA sources, two teams kept coming up -- both with the combination of potential interest and the right roster pieces to intrigue West and the Warriors. They were: Chicago, which might have been a big-time perimeter scorer away from pushing Miami to the brink in the Eastern Conference finals. Would the Bulls think about Luol Deng for Ellis? Could the Warriors sweeten that offer? And Memphis, West's old team, which has Rudy Gay at a huge salary and which offered O.J. Mayo for Ellis in the recent past.
I anticipate the immediate reaction to the idea of getting Ellis would be "where's the defense?" And it'd be difficult to give up a two way player like Deng. I honestly like Deng and think he's as good a character guy as there is. He plays hard and manages to put up between 10 and 20 almost every night. That said... The "where's the defense" question was asked about CJ Watson, too, and he turned out to be a pretty good defender in Thibs' scheme. I see Deng as a PF in a SF body. He is a strong rebounder and a good shot blocker, etc. He's got mediocre handles at best. Deng and any combination of our SGs are a terrible fit on the wings. None of them are ball handlers or can really create their own shots. Add in Noah who's not a very good offensive player and Deng's deficiencies are really exposed. Ellis and Rose would easily be the top back court in the league, at least offensively. Defensively, not so much. The bottom line is if you triple team Rose now, Deng is not going to make you pay. If we had Ellis and you triple team Rose, Ellis will make you pay and dearly. Without Deng, we'd be playing Brewer and Korver at SF. Brewer is a fine defender and tall enough, and a VERY efficient scorer. He's not the 3pt shooter Deng is, nor will he give us as many points. Though Ellis should make up for the difference and whatever Bogans gave us and then some.
Oh yeah, people wonder where we can get the significant upgrade at SG. It's certainly not going to be free, but this is how it could be done.
I would miss Deng's D for sure. Monta can create and can score. We will still need A SF. Do we start Brewer?
Chad ford Chat Joe (NYC) What is more likely for the Bulls this offseason: minor tweaks or major changes? Are they just going to look to add a 2 guard in free agency or could we see a big trade this summer? (Carlos Boozer for Ben Gordon? Boozer and change for Elton Brand and Andre Iguodala? Anything?) Chad Ford (1:26 PM) I think everyone agrees the Bulls need another scoring option at the two. Problem is how to get it. Their picks are probably too late in the draft to get an impact player in Year One. Not much cap flexibility. They want to keep their core together of Rose-Noah-Boozer. Luol Deng is the trade bait. Just not sure he's goign to get you a lot back in return. Lots of speculation they could be after Ellis, but I think they're looking for a shooter. Wouldn't be surprised if they moved up in the draft. They really like Klay Thompson.
Deng for Monta Ellis is a lateral move right? So the real question becomes, who do you get to replace Deng. I would want a better 3 than Brewer. If you could find some way to acquire both Ellis and Iguodala (which would require including Boozer in some kind of three way) than I'm on board. That's not going to happen though.
I think it's a huge upgrade. Ellis scores more than Deng and Bogans and maybe Korver combined. You get roughly the same defense as Deng from brewer, and in his starter role with Utah, he was only 3-4 PPG less than Deng.
I'm actually surprised you guys consider this. Monta is probably "better" but Deng is damn well rounded and a great fit with Thibs it seems. Plus its nice to have a big ass defensive minded SF when you're in playoff series against LeBron, Melo, Pierce, etc. As a W's fan I would probably want a little more than Deng but it wouldn't take much extra to get it done. Then again isn't Deng getting like 11 mil/year to be a glorified role player? Monta and Rose seems like a disaster defensively. Two absolute freaks of nature in terms of quickness and explosiveness. But Rose got some heat for not having mentally committed to defense against the Heat. Monta has zero discipline on defense (great ballhawk but it costs him a lot of the time). Would Rose have to guard SGs? One of them has to guard Wade, Joe Johnson, Jason Richardson, etc.
Eh. He's scores 6.5 points more than Deng which is a distinct upgrade. He's definitely a better scorer. Both players have been plagued at times by injuries. Nonetheless, both players are workhorses who can play a ton of minutes. Both players can shoot the three, but are not three point shooters. Ellis has clashed at times with coaches and his teammates in a way that Deng hasn't. Deng is clearly a better defender. Neither shoots free throws as well as they should. I'd put both in that border line all-star category where, in they could make the team if they put together a very good year. But it's really all about the Heat, isn't it? What's the better match up, Ellis and Brewer (or a shooting guard upgrade) v. Deng and Bogans (or a shooting guard upgrade). I think the "upgrade" portion of the equation controls. Deng and Stephen Jackson is better than Ellis and Brewer. Deng and Stephen Jackson v. Ellis and Iguodala? I'm not sure where that shakes out. I'm not opposed to the move -- I just think you have to keep an eye on a second move which frames the acquisition of Ellis. And you have to worry about an Ellis Rose tandem defensively.
82games.com says opposing PGs had a 13.2 PER against Rose. Ellis was 2nd in the NBA in steals. Opposing SGs had a 15.9 PER against Ellis, which is slightly worse than average but not terrible. The article also mentions that GS might have to sweeten the deal. Maybe Reggie Williams or Al Thornton.
The reverse is true, too. Who was guarding Deng when LeBron was guarding Rose? Mario Chalmers? I note Deng shot 6-17 in game 5. If that's not a match up that should easily favor Deng, what is?
Didn't watch much of that series but probably Wade or Mike Miller? Why wouldn't they just put Chalmers/Bibby on one of your impotent SGs? Makes more sense all around.
Wade gets to rest against a guy like Bogans and is free to double team whenever. Miller? Yeah, maybe it was him on Deng, but he's a far worse defender than Ellis.
Okay. We're way past the point where we equate steals with good defense, right? We also don't believe that Rose's defense was the primary reason that point guards had a 13.2 PER against him. Rose is fine on defense. He funnels players in the right direction, doesn't take silly risks, and occasionally makes a big play. It seems to me Rose's defense is hampered by the fact that he can't afford to body up on opposing PGs and risk foul trouble. The primary reason PGs don't fair well against Rose though is because the Bulls' defensive schemes, not his on the ball defense. As to Ellis, one more thing that we need to mention is that his stats are inherently inflated to some extent by the Warriors' run and gun style of play. They are only behind Denver, New York, Houston and Phoenix in terms of the total number of points scored in their games. I think Ellis would be very likely to score twenty points a game on the Bulls, which would be a huge addition, but Deng scores 17.5.
Rose can't take a play off, drawing at least a double team away from the play, by passing the ball to Deng. The Warriors have a lot of offense, so it's not surprising they score a lot of points. It worked for them against us: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2011020509 Ellis, Warriors beat Bulls 101-90 Monta Ellis(notes) scored 33 points, Curry had 23 and the Golden State Warriors smothered Rose defensively to snap Chicago’s six-game wining streak with a 101-90 victory over the Bulls on Saturday night. Consider how Rose and Deng can combine for 56 points. Rose 40 + Deng 16?
Yeah, but Golden State also was tied with New York in giving up the most points, which was a stat the Bulls were good at. My point is that some of that is attributable to not being good on offense but playing at a fast pace.
A big no on this one. You can't give up one of the few guys who can effectively guard LBJ and still get 20 points for somebody like Monta. People, the bulls only struggled in one series all year offensively. They are going to be better next year without trading anybody. Miami only outscored the bulls by 12 points in 5 games.
+1 I know what Denny is thinking since he prides PPG over everything else, but have no idea what Chad Ford is thinking. Besides Denny, who could have watched the playoffs and seen Deng play 43 mins per game and think he is trade bait. He and Rose are the locks of locks.
Deng scored 20 in one of the four losses to Miami. He failed to score 20 in 3 of the four losses. LeBron scored 28, 35, 22, and 29 in those wins. You cannot score fewer points at every position and win games, no matter how good the players are defensively. In the Lebron/Deng match up, in the losses the differential was 15-20 points in LeBron's favor. You have to make up those points somewhere, or you lose. It's not coming from Noah or Bogans (who actually make the hole deeper), so it's up to Rose and Boozer to outscore Wade and Bosh by 15-20 combined. Tall order. Granted, the bench can make up some of the difference, but rotations are much shorter in the playoffs and the stars play 40+ minutes. I don't pride PPG over everything else, but I do think if you are going to play multiple 1-way players, the lack of scoring will be a team's ultimate downfall. When you trot out 3x 1-way defensive players against a team, opponents only have to work hard at one end of the court. To make Wade chase someone around on defense so he's tired on offense is good for our defense. Getting the ball in the hands of a capable 2nd ballhandler who can run a 4-on-3 or 4-on-2 offense with Rose double or triple teamed is something that would make teams reconsider those double and triple teams. Deng is a fine player, but he's not that kind of player. As the Heat series wore on, the announcers repeatedly asked where the Bulls were going to get scoring from, outside of Rose. They see it, too.
