Define awesome...it certainly didn't get us back into the FA market any quicker....it didn't bring any significant players our way....I'm sure reinsdorf liked it b/c insurance payed some of Jerome James contact.....does that make it awesome?
I think you're confusing the deals. Bulls got Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Cedric Simmons, and Shannon Brown for Ben Wallace, Adrian Griffin and a second rounder. I think the move gave the Bulls both financial flexibility and a talent upgrade. Drew Gooden actually was fine in his time with the Bulls. Shannon Brown would have been a nice bench player to hold on to.
ESPN is reporting that the Warriors and Sixers are discussing a trade with Monte Ellis and Andre Iguodala as the centerpieces. Usually teams don't trade players at the same position for each other, but this one seems to make a lot of sense for both teams.
SST, I was reacting to the assertion that history shows that the Bulls FO (Pax/Garpax admin) doesn't know what it's doing. That's where the question of competence comes in. Personally, I think most NBA GMs are competent. Obviously, some have more resources to work with than others. I also believe that few, if any, are geniuses. Examine most GM's track records on trades, FA signings and drafts and you'll find hits and misses. We're just too close to our team and magnify each decision. My guess is that it's much the same in other cities. I mean, consider our discussion of the '04 draft. We're still lamenting that the Bulls took home Gordon rather than Iguodala with the #3 pick. I can't help but wonder how fans of the other teams that passed on Iggy in favor of players like Shaun Livingston, Josh Childress and Rafael Araujo feel about their GMs. For that matter, the Bulls got Deng at #7 by trading their '05 pick to the Suns. That pick turned out to be #21 overall. I mean, what idiot did that trade, right? Well, the Suns' GM that year was Bryan Colangelo and he won the damned Exec of the Year award the following season (also won it in '07). Hits and misses. When I look at the decisions of any GM, I ask myself the question, "What were you thinking?" As long as there's some sound thinking behind the decision, I'm probably going to be OK with it. With the exception of the VDN hire, his disposability notwithstanding, I feel like I could follow the thought process behind the Paxson administration's decisions. As for raising the bar, most of the Bulls discussion here and elsewhere is now focused on becoming better than the Heat, which to most translates to winning a championship(s). That's a pretty high bar and I'm completely on-board with it.
I don't know where anyone has EVER called our management incompetent. You're putting up a strawman and arguing about that. Management is about making huge profits, and good basketball decisions are trumped by greed. For these reasons, and a 13 year history of moves based upon "fiscal flexibility," it's fair to be dubious. Reinsdorf has said he'd pay for a championship, but we've never paid the LT in those years, and I don't see it happening. That's a serious handicap to winning it all.
Sorry, I obviously misunderstood. Interesting manifesto and certainly one others adhere to. I don't happen to be one of them. There have simply been too many examples where JR allowed money to be spent when he could've kept it in his pocket. Still, there is the case of never having paid the Lux Tax. No sense arguing it. That one's out there until it's not.
I guess I should have been more clear. They don't know what they're doing when it comes to picking which of their players to keep, given that signing them means LT. Or building championship teams. Or building perennial contenders.
Bumping Paxson up to VP seemed like a good idea. His original vision of core 4 of average players leading us somewhere meaningful was very flawed. He fell in love with those nice, average players and if Gordon and Deng didn't crush him by demanding big $$$ he might still be of that mindset. It seems like somewhere after the Deng / Gordon situations that Gar took on more of a role and we started behaving like a normal NBA team again. Getting very, very lucky with getting #1 pick saved the franchise from likely many more years of mediocrity. That being said, have to give them credit for picking Rose over Beasley.
They turned Hughes into James and other stuff. Gooden played less than 60 games and then we turned him and Nocioni into Brad Miller. We never had cap space until Wallace's contract expired. Maybe all these deals were singles but "awesome". Brown played 6 games with the Bulls and they decided not to resign him. Meh....
From BlazersEdge: he Warriors and representatives for Monta Ellis are working cooperatively to see if a trade to a contending team can be arranged, a deal that would likely happen around the NBA draft later this month, a person with knowledge of the discussions told CBSSports.com. "It’s pretty hot," the person familiar with the talks said. The Trail Blazers, Lakers, Hawks, Bulls, and 76ers are among the teams expressing the most sincere interest, league sources said Thursday. A possible deal between Golden State and Philadelphia involving Ellis and Andre Iguodala is a "50-50" proposition at the moment, a person with knowledge of those talks said.
I'd trade non-core pieces for Monta, but none of our big 4. That probably means we wouln't get Monta if I was GM.
It's hard to tell where Pax ends and Gar begins, but I'm inclined to agree with this. Pax has plenty of basketball knowledge, and seems to have a good eye for talent. That said, he doesn't seem to have the emotional makeup of a GM. The fight with Vinny, the rants in the locker room when the Kirk/Deng/Ben team was underperforming, etc. He's probably best in an advisory role. As for the competence of our management, I really don't have much new to mention. I tend to use the "what were they thinking?" heuristic like Transplant when evaluating moves. Too often I think fans discount the huge role dumb luck plays in the process. The preference of one guy over the other, one guy going here and not there, etc. The level of luck and lack of complete information we have as fans ultimately discloses more about the fans making the judgments than it does the front office IMO.
I gotta tell ya, I've been posting on boards like this for over a very long time and this is the first time I've seen that word used...nice. Very well said and completely agree.
http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/29914237 Ellis would be interested in a trade to the Bulls, who have previously expressed interest in him. But a person with direct knowledge of Chicago's offseason discussions refuted the notion that the Bulls have had recent contact with Golden State about the electrifying guard. ... Ellis, a prolific scorer who may not fit long term in an undersized backcourt with Stephen Curry under defensive-minded coach Mark Jackson, would be a good fit for a playoff-contending team seeking an additional perimeter scorer and penetrator to take some of the load off its primary scorer.
Wow! That sounds just like us! Then again there are all those glowing quotes from Deng's head coach and teammates about how he's so important to the team to consider.
It does sound just like us, which is part of the attraction of getting a guy like him or even Ben Gordon. The plus would be a much tougher team for opponents to guard. The minus would be smurf back court and for Ellis, the loss of Deng. Don't get me wrong, I do really like Deng, and were fortunate to have him. It's just our team needs at least one of SF or SG who can dribble, score in bunches, and make defenses guard him at 3pt line and beyond. Noah is no outside threat. Boozer and Gibson aren't really either. Bogans and Brewer aren't either. IMO, the ideal front court guy to match with Deng is Aldridge. Deng's strong rebounding makes up for LMA being a little soft. And LMA is a really good outside shooter and go to kind of guy. Plus they're both good 2 way players. Ideally, we'd get a guy like Ellis and keep Deng. I would strongly consider Noah for Ellis, but Noah is BYC.
Nice post. Laid it out very well. I happen to believe that the negatives you stated outweigh the positives in the Deng-for-Ellis trade, but it's a "some like chocolate, some like vanilla" thing.
Something to consider is that a team with Brewer at SF and Ellis at SG isn't a drop off on D at SF, should only be a 4-5 point loss in scoring at SF, but would give us a full time dominant offensive player to pair with Rose. If we could get Kevin Martin, it would be about as good, but no smurf back court. And to be fair to Gar, the plan was to sign Joe Johnson, and we would be in the finals had that happened.
1) The assumption that Brewer replacing Deng on defense at SF would be a defensive wash is a leap of faith I'm not anxious to make. 2) Brewer is a key (maybe THE key) to the "Bench Mob's" ridiculous defensive effectiveness. 3) With Deng finally developing a somewhat reliable 3-point shot, I'm not sure I can go back to reading all the posts about how our SF's inability to spread the defense is the root cause of every conceivable offensive woe. I understand the basis for your 4-5 point offensive dropoff assumption, but in this particular case, I think you're being optimistic from a team perspective. Another concern I have is kind of an ironic one. Coming into the season, a major knock on Deng was his durability. It's almost universally accepted that the main reason the Bulls surprised the NBA world this year was Rose morphing into a true superstar. Credit is also given to the addition of defensive genius Thibodeau. I'd add Deng playing over 3,200 minutes to the list. He was an indispensible part of the starting unit, the Bench Mob and the finishing unit. The Bulls survived the extended absences of Boozer and Noah. I'm not sure that they could have survived an extended Deng absence. In the end, we see this one differently because we value Deng differently. This was brought home to me when you said that you'd easily prefer Rudy Gay to Deng. For me, it's also a very easy decision...except I go the other way. Yes, Gay is more athletic and a more prolific scorer, but I don't think he's near the basketball player Deng is.
