Player A (24 years old) 2.8 PPG, 3.7 RPG, .7 BPG, .553 FG%, 12.1 MPG - 11.8 PER Player B (23 years old) 4.3 PPG, 2.8 RPG, .3 BPG, .505 FG%, 10.0 MPG - 13.9 PER Those are rookie season stats.
A surprise! ;-) This begs the question that it might be OK to give up Asik in a trade, because guys like Gray are easy enough to find.
Since the question has been begged, I'll give my opinion. Anyone who actually watched both Gray and Asik play and believes that they're similar talents is a basketball idiot. This is not to say that I wouldn't consider trading Asik. However, if the Bulls FO traded him for someone like Devin Brown (the player the Bulls got for Gray), I would consider them basketball idiots as well.
In this case the statistical similarities are superficial. The types of minutes those guys got weren't comparable. Aaron Gray was a 12th man on a fringe team. Asik was a defensive anchor on the best defensive team in the league with the best record. Not even close. In this case, the fact that Asik's being talked about in trades and Aaron Gray never was is indicative of what kind of players they were. Asik's clearly not a franchise player, because those guys are not offered in trade talks. (At least not while they're on rookie contracts). However, he's always been the principal guy in the trades he's been mentioned in. No one ever gave a shit about Aaron Gray. That's why he's out of the league. I think Asik can have a 10 year career in the league, easy. Because he's limited offensively and excels at positional defense and protecting the rim his PER will probably always underestimate his true value. But Asik has effectively shut down Tim Duncan one-on-one and punked Dwayne Wade at the rim. Not too shabby. I really doubt the Bulls would feel very sanguine at the possibility of replacing Asik with Aaron Gray.
OK, I'll bite. Denny, please compare and contrast Gray and Asik in terms of their relative value to an NBA team. Thanks.
Gray Started a lot of games for us. He was also a big part of the Hornets making the playoffs and taking the Lakers to 6 games. They're both 12 MPG players on playoff teams. http://www.nola.com/hornets/index.ssf/2011/02/new_orleans_hornets_reader_com_40.html "1st off...the coaching staff has done a GREAT job with him this season. His feet and movements to the baskets have improved greatly...and it's more than just minutes in games. They have been working with him and shows.. Also he is becoming that 5 off the bench that we have been looking for a LONG time. Getting minutes is a blessing in disguise....what this team is NEEDING MOST is a decent 5 off the bench that can give you 5 to6 boards and 4 points game and have some presence on the defensive side. Gray has become that with good coaching and some minutes against some VERY good centers. having Okafor go down with minor injury for a few weeks has allowed the hornets to find their center off the bench for the playoffs. "This also allows Smith and Anderson to be more in the 4 position which is where they belong. This current emergence of Gray has me REALLY positive for the playoffs!" http://talksport.com/tm.asp?m=729001&mpage=1򱾪 Hornets Aaron Gray set to play Game 2 - 2011 NBA Playoffs Odds - Backup center Aaron Gray was having a solid game on Sunday against the Lakers -- 12 points on 5-5 shooting -- when he sprained his right ankle with 1:07 remaining in the fourth quarter. (Gray was a big part of the Hornets 36-28 Q4 in a win over the Lakers).
I think this is a fun comparison that yields a couple of insights. First off, reading the comments here, I think many of us have forgotten the start of the Aaron Grey era. He was Skiles' guy before Eddie Basden was Skiles' guy. I remember this because Grey was my guy, after Tyson Chandler was my guy, before Thabo Sefolosha was my guy, which was before Omer Asik was my guy, which was before Nicola Mirotic was my guy. (That's quite a run, huh?) Aaron Grey actually looked awesome in the preseason running up to his rookie year. The Bulls would dump the ball into him in the high post and he would thread passes to perimeter players. He looked to me like a legit NBA starter. Indeed, he actually started at the beginning of his rookie season (if memory serves, partially due to team injuries) before he was eventually kicked all together out of the lineup. So what do we take away: -- Tom Thibodeau did a great job of developing Asik this past season. Developing young bigs is excruciatingly difficult. We don't think of Thibodeau as a coach who develops talent, but he has fared better in his one year with the team than Skiles ever did. -- Centers have a bizarro value arc. They are intensely overvalued as young players, almost all of them struggle, and then they are undervalued when they become veterans. I think every one is still looking for the next Patrick Ewing. You can count on two hands the number of layups Asik made all season and shot like 55% from the free throw line. On the flip side, he was one of the better defensive centers at times and showed a willingness to finish with authority late in the season. At this point in his career that makes him a gem of trading piece, with teams hoping that he will show skills that he hasn't yet. If he has a bad second season he probably will have the value of a second round draft pick. -- I agree with Denny to an extent. Finding a player to take Asik's minutes wouldn't be that difficult. We should be able to find some hobbled vet to eat up the minutes. Asik's value comes from the fact that teams expect him to continue to improve, which I think is a reasonable expectation.
Peer review time. Please see the following thread: A-discussion-from-BBF.COM-What-to-look-for-in-a-coach?
SST, if Gray was "your guy," you should spell his name correctly. Actually, I claimed him as "my guy" on realgm. Despite all the insults heaped on Gray, I claimed that he was going to play a long time in the league and make a very nice living. Nothing has changed my mind on this. He's not much of an athlete, but he has some skills and you still can't teach players to be 7-feet tall. But c'mon...Asik is an entirely different beast. He has quickness and instincts that Gray can only dream about. Everyone was wowed by the Bench Mob's unbelievable defense. IMO, Asik was the key to it, particularly in the second half of the season. Over and over again, he just plain stopped opponents' offensive sets cold by being right where he was supposed to be at the critical moment, causing those opponents to kick the ball out and improvise with a short clock. Christ, it brought tears to my eyes sometimes. And you can ask just about any casual fan about Asik's offense and they'll tell you it sucks. That's why they call them casual fans. True enough, Asik doesn't score much and you don't run plays for him. However, Asik was 3rd among NBA centers in offensive rebounding %, and you know what, this is an important offensive skill...it, like, helps your team score more points. He also is a terrific screener/picker. If Asik and Gray were in this past draft, Asik would have easily been a lottery pick. Gray probably would have been an early 2nd-round pick instead of a mid 2nd-rounder (he was taken 49th overall in 2007). Put another way, Asik has a "specialness" about him that Gray simply doesn't.
Asik should only get ~12 MPG if Noah is healthy. If we didn't have him, a guy like Gray would be perfectly find as one of the guys to fill those minutes. Along with guys like Thomas and playing small ball lineups without a C at all. The point being if we want to get a top flight SG and the asking price includes Asik, I wouldn't hesitate.
Agree that Asik shouldn't be untouchable given that he figures to play only 12-15mpg. All I ask is that, if the Bulls trade Asik, that they get fair value for him...and that value is way, way beyond Gray.
