only one side is seeking truth. the other side already "knows" they have it. nice that you are concerned with humility, but you can't lump atheists and fundamentalists based on motivation. their motivations are polar opposites.
Call it naive faith on my part, but I believe in the possibility of scientific redemption for all, even the most hard-core of fundamentalist nonbelievers.
And we come full circle, because if you generalise "Atheism" as - a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities; then why the concern of other people's beliefs? Why would an Atheist even care what another believes in? Yet, in every religeous debate; they jump at the chance to disprove God. It almost seems a passion in the sense. I would think if the term "I don't know and I don't care" is applied; then why the need to try and discredit those that have a deep love and admiration for their "God"? Let's dumb it down a bit... Let's say I tell you... You don't love your mom. How can you prove you love your mom? Could your idea of love be different than mine? Would that make you wrong if 100 people disagree with you?
I always heard it as "Satan's greatest trick was convincing the world that he (Satan) didn't exist." Meaning that those who don't believe in Satan are indirectly giving him their support. Of course, it could also be argued that religion's greatest trick was convincing the world that an invisible spirit was responsible for all of their bad actions...
I can't speak for other atheists any more than you can speak for all Christians, but for my part I have no problem with folks believing in god(s). We live in a world which, at a material level, has far more questions than solid answers. I don't blame anyone for seeking out stories that fill in the unknowns, if it gives them comfort and satisfaction. I also enjoy discussing all these questions (and the many answers that folks have found), hence my participation in these threads. I'll admit that it rankles a bit when friends or family members choose superstition over science in terms of their personal choices (such as holding onto magnets, crystals or relics when they are sick), but I can usually get over that. The only place where I start to have a problem with religious belief is if/when someone's spiritual beliefs start to dictate public policy that negatively impacts me or my family.
Very eloquently spoken. I am totally fine with this way of thinking. And I it can be said the other way around too. There are Christians that try and force feed their beliefs on "non-believers". I am personally against that as well. I think giving someone the opportunity to come to you in "Free Will" will give you the open pallet. It's much harder to try and get through to someone by making them become defensive right from the get go.
because coddling false certainty is potentially harmful for humanity. not that i expect christians to start suicide bombing or anything, but religious people who do cause harm are enabled by the social convention of not caring what other people believe religiously. my definition of love on an aesthetic level might be different from yours, but your fundamentalist religious belief is not a matter of aesthetics. you are making factual claims about objective reality. yahweh either exists or he doesn't as a matter of fact. evolution either occurred or it didn't. objective reality has no regard for anyone's opinion.
WOW, you aren't getting where I'm coming at yet again. You are completely generalizing all of Religion; just as I was trying to show you this generalization on your belief. How are you to judge one belief as being harful, when you have no idea what that belief is. You are completely wrong, and if you actually studied the true teachings of Christianity; you would know that this is far from it. There are extremists in every belief. An extreme patroit, liberal, conservative. Every belief has it. This is why you can't generalize it. And here you are, being myopic in my belief and fell right into my web. Do you even know why I posted this thread? I don't think you do. But you have proved why I decided to make it. I had a feeling you would come in at this tone. No you are force feeding your belief as fact; which you hold just as little claim to actual fact as one that has faith in Religion.
That may be true in some cases, but I have found that alienation and hostility between otherwise good, friendly people to be far more dangerous to humans in the short-term. Do you think that you can just forcibly bash the religious belief out of people with a big SCIENCE hammer? Humans just don't work that way.
Muslims are saying that around the world right now to the U.S. Torture and hi-tech war work in the short term, but they'll make a comeback once we run out of the big bucks.
i'm sure you're a nice enough person, but the fundamentalist belief you adhere to is in the business of inhibiting science and perpetuating social prejudices. when a bunch of people share this type of belief and act on it, it is overtly harmful. you are one. all i stated is fundamentalists and atheists have different motivations. any perceived tone to the conversation beyond that is your doing. the covert atheist comedian in you is coming out again.
Let me give you witness why I am a Christian... Why I have deep love for Jesus and the Hebrew God. My personal experience. First off, here is a little about myself. I was born in Portland, Oregon in 1973. My family was extremely rich at the time. In the 70's; my father was making 500k per year. That's no chump change. I was a spoiled rich kid, that was niave about everything. I was racist and felt anyone that wasn't living in Raliegh Park (70's was yuppieville) where below me. Then my father had a terrible business dealing and we went from that 500k income, to living off my father's disability from his tours in Vietnam. We had a 5,700 sq. ft house, to a 2 bedroom apartment in Clackamas. My brother was heavily addicted to crack coccaine. And what little money we did have, was stolen from him and used for drugs. I remember driving with my father to look for my brother almost every night. My father's arthitis was so bad, his doctor told him to find the dryest place to live, so he can relieve some of his pain. That's when things changed. That's when we moved to Southern California. We found a place called Lancaster, which had very little to no humidity. My brother was still heavily involved in drugs, and I started getting connected with a "Death Rock" or "Gothic" group of friends. We would do sayonces and try to do witch craft. I became heavily involved in drugs as well and even started dealing. I was 5'8" and weighed 115 lbs. That can tell you just how bad I had it. Anyways, my brother had this pastor that would keep visiting the house. He would ask him everyday to come to church with him. Of course my brother fought hard. One day my brother had an OD and was sent to the hospital. At the hospital, that pastor kept visiting him. When my brother went to jail (10 times at least), this very same pastor would visit him there. Finally my brother broke and decided to go to church. That was when things seriously changed. See this was when my brother accepted Jesus Christ as his savior. All of us saw the change in his attitude. He was on fire to spread the gospel to the world. I was still a "Death Rocker" that wore all black, painted nails, drugs, and cared nothing about God; but I saw this change in my brother. I decided to go to church with him; still in my Gothic attire. I remember going and saying to myself "Hey if they can't accept me like this, then they are a total contridiction". Do you know what? They welcomed me everytime I went. Once that happened, I told myself "Hey if they can accept me for who I am, I guess I will listen to what they had to say". So this was the ONLY thing that sold me. I used my imagination on the story of Salvation and this is what I came up with. Forget the torture Jesus went through to get to the cross. Forget being nailed to the cross, cause this has happened before and more horrible things happened to other people historically. What got me was that this perfect being that was without sin, had every sin from the first days of Adam to the end of days put on him. I just told myself... OMG, just my own sins put on someone else would be soooo hard to bare. Then I realized, OMG, why would he do this? Why do I even deserve to be forgiven? I realized it was because of LOVE. Because he loved us sooo much that he wanted to give us an out. See when God created man, he wanted to create man with a free will. He wanted man to love him without being forced. I see it like the reward when you truly love someone and that love is returned. It's way more rewarding than being some Rock star or NBA player that gets love just because he's famous or powerful. There is this purity in it. A romance.... So I have this deep love for Jesus and that will never change. The reason is because he changed my life and I will never forget the gift I received. NEVER...
i'm not intending to be hostile at all. if anything i was trying to be droll. apparently there's some carryover confrontationality from the other threads, but whatever. actually humans work exactly that way. it's just a very slow process.
Pertinent excerpts from Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World": "Have I ever heard a skeptic wax superior and contemptuous? Certainly. I've even sometimes heard, to my retrospective dismay, that unpleasant tone in my own voice. There are human imperfections on both sides of this issue. Even when it's applied sensitively, scientific skepticism may come across as arrogant, dogmatic, heartless and dismissive of the feelings and deeply held beliefs of others. And, it must be said, some scientists and dedicated skeptics apply this tool as a blunt instrument, with little finesse. Sometimes it looks as if the skeptical conclusion came first, that contentions were dismissed before, not after, the evidence was examined. All of us cherish our beliefs. They are, to a degree, self-defining. When someone comes along who challenges our belief system as insufficiently well-based - or who, like Socrates, merely asks embarrassing questions that we haven't thought of, or demonstrates that we've swept key underlying assumptions under the rug - it becomes much more than a search for knowledge. It feels like a personal assault. ... In the way that skepticism is sometimes applied to issues of public concern, there is a tendency to belittle, to condescend, to ignore the fact that, deluded or not, supporters of superstition and pseudoscience are human beings with real feelings, who, like the skeptics, are trying to figure out how the world works and what our role in it might be. Their motives are in many cases consonant with science. If their culture has not given them all the tools they need to pursue this great quest, let us temper our criticism with kindness. None of us comes fully equipped. Clearly there are limits to the uses of skepticism. There is some cost-benefit analysis which must be applied, and if the comfort, consolation and hope delivered by mysticism and superstition is high, and the dangers of belief comparatively low, should we not keep our misgivings to ourselves? But the issue is tricky. Imagine that you enter a big-city taxicab and the moment you get settled in the driver begins a harangue about the supposed iniquities and inferiorities of another ethnic group. Is your best course to keep quiet, bearing in mind that silence conveys assent? Or is it your moral responsibility to argue with him, to express outrage, even to leave the cab - because you know that every silent assent will encourage him next time, and every vigorous dissent will cause him next time to think twice? Likewise, if we offer too much silent assent about mysticism and superstition - even when it seems to be doing a little good - we abet a general climate in which skepticism is considered impolite, science tiresome, and rigorous thinking somehow stuffy and inappropriate. Figuring out a prudent balance takes wisdom."
