scientists don't think it would have happened by chance. that's the point. they think (among other possibilities) there could have been a selection-type system already in place (natural self-replicating crystals or something similar) that led to greater and greater complexity being selected over a long period of time, similar to how evolution works. scientists DON'T argue that a bunch of molecules somehow organized themselves into life by "blind chance". that's simply propaganda - something creationists misprepresent in order to validate their straw man statistical improbability arguments. if by "their views" you mean scientists expect to someday find a natural explanation rather than supernatural, there is a mountain of evidence for that. that evidence is that they have ONLY found natural explanations for everything else that has EVER been explained in all of human history. there are no major mysteries involved in getting from the big bang to molecules. that's very well understood.
Gonna say something; but I want your debate with Oden without me involved. But I seem to remember that in the Big Bang; it really wasn't an explosion; but rather expansion? That part confused me.
Cool. I think God is the mastermind behind life. I guess we're both operating on "faith" now, right? I meant by their views because there is no reason to believe in abiogenesis, especially given the evidence we have for a Creator. Very well understood, yet no one was there to observe it, verify it, or duplicate it. Amazing how we know so much about our precious universe
That's partly true. http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles/probability-life For example, the simplest theorized self-replicating peptide is only 32 amino acids long. The probability of it forming randomly, in sequential trials, is approximately 1 in 1^40, which is much more likely than the 1 in 1^390 claim creationists often cite. Though, to be fair, 1^40 is still a very large number. It would still take an incredibly large number of sequential trials before the peptide would form. But remember that in the prebiotic oceans of the early Earth, there would be billions of trials taking place simultaneously as the oceans, rich in amino acids, were continuously churned by the tidal forces of the moon and the harsh weather conditions of the Earth. In fact, if we assume the volume of the oceans were 10^24 liters, and the amino acid concentration was 10^-6M (which is actually very dilute), then almost 10^31 self-replicating peptides would form in under a year, let alone millions of years. So, even given the difficult chances of 1 in 1^40, the first stages of abiogenesis could have started very quickly indeed.
You are going with the "unknown". That is a theory that hasn't had evidence to back up that theory. So we get to toss out the unimaginable now? Okay God exists just because!
thought we were talking about the odds of a cell forming randomly, but yeah the key there is you have self-replicating molecules at work.
That's what I thought. Wanted to be clear. Too many people think of it as an explosion. I think of it like you described. Still doesn't change my opinion on thermal dynamics though. But I will leave you two to debate.
unlike you scientists don't claim to know what happened, so no. as i said they expect to find a natural explanation for abiogenesis because it would fit a very well established pattern, but they are wide open to evidence to the contrary if it emerges. verify what? the big bang is verified beyond all reasonable doubt by the CBR. hubble has directly observe gravity collapsing gas clouds into stars. we've verified that stars can cook heavy elements and directly observed their spectra in the expulsion gas of supernovea. we can create our own molecules from elements in labs. not much of a gap for god in those processes. as long as you are going to god-of-the-gaps it up you're better off asking "where did the laws of nature come from"? : )
His math is wrong. It assumes that only 2 atoms can combine for form a molecule per Planck time. The number is more like 1x10^80 x 1x10^80 just for combinations of 2 atoms. And that blows his whole 1:40,000 out of the water.
Alright, wiseguy, where DID the laws of nature come from? YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THAT! [video=youtube;lq65hlbxdmk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq65hlbxdmk[/video]
I already asked this question (why is the speed of light 186,000 miles/sec?) The answer is that it's "precision" for some unexplained reason.
LMAO! Dude seriously? You have two atoms equaling 1 living organism. You are seriously reaching here. There is about 40,000 atoms on the tip of a pencil. All you did was make it even harder to imagine.
Exactly. According to you, it would take 40,000 planck times to make the tip of a pencil. It would take 1 planck time if all the atoms were lined up right.
"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" -Feynman
Yep, and if you believe the universe is from the "Big Bang"; that remains the biggest mystery, eh? I mean all was heavily compacted in the first self replicating molecule; no?
And still isn't even close to the probability to the "mathematical probability" of the first living cell. In comparison, and even then not even close. "Hey I was on the beach and I dug up some sand. I took the sand home and just felt the need to study just one of them. I couldn't believe that that spec of sand under the microscope actually had my name on it?!?! What are the chances?!?!" --- Mags
