<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jul 20 2006, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I disagree. Jordan had a star player beside him in Scottie Pippen, and he had role players that could do their job. He had shooters like Steve Kerr, he had Dennis Rodman and Luc Longley rebounding and playing defense. He had a good team. Every player needs a good team for them to do well. Heck, even the Lakers team did better then the effort that Lebron's squad put up. I thought it was dominating enough when Lebron pulled ahead of the Pistons (best team in the League) when his team was playing like sh*t. Isn't that enough? You cant get past a 60+ win team like the Pistons if your team is playing like sh*t.</div>Sure Jordan had a star but LeBron's supporting cast isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Larry Hughes was even playing during the playoffs, probably not at 100% but it's better then nothing. LeBron has shooters in Damon, Flip and Donny he has rebounding and defense. The best in the league? Certainly not but they hold there own. At that time the Pistons weren't the "best team in the league", after game 5 everyone had Cleveland upsetting Detroit and everyone was saying it was a "major meltdown". The Cavaliers didn't play there best basketball in game 7 but you and me both know the Pistons had been struggling that entire series and could've lost that game just as easily as the Cavs. For the LeBron getting better comments, LeBron still has to work on his defense and range, hes not perfect yet and can definitely get better. Early in the season his decision making and play in clutch situations was very poor until he stepped up in the playoffs. I expect him to get better as does everyone else.
Yes but I was talking about the Pistons series, not overall. Look at the statistics for Lebron's supporting cast against the Pistons.Zydrunas Ilgauskus-11 ppg, 6 rpg, 47% shooting (below average for him)Drew Gooden-8 ppg, 6 rpg (below average for him)Larry Hughes-9 ppg, 3 rpg, 33% shooting, 33% 3 pt shootingFlip Murray-6 ppg, 3 rpg, 22% shooting, 17% 3pt shootingDonyell Marshall-8 ppg, 41% shooting, 37 3pt%Eric Snow-5 ppg, 3 apg, .400 percent shootingDamon Jones-3 ppg, 26% shooting, 25% 3pt shootingAnderson Varejao-9 ppg, 4 rpg (only player I felt played above expectations)Look at that. Add that on to the fact that Lebron was being doubled and tripled when he tried to drive. He had 0 help from his teammates. You cant beat the best team in basketball if your teammates are sucking, but yet he almost did. That's being dominate I think.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Living_Legend33 @ Jul 20 2006, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He could improve his defense, outside shooting, rebounding, and work on making his teammates better. He does a great job of those things now, but there is room for improvement. He's not Jordan yet.I didn't expect him to win, but I can't picture truly dominant players like Jordan, Shaq, or Kareem losing after being up 3-2. Only Jordan himself will tell you he was a much better player in the 90's than the 80's. He's said that before.Yeah, athletecism is all that matters. Skill has absolutely nothing to do with how good a player is. The pace is so much faster, which is why they score more points now than they did then. Oh wait, none of that is true. I guess it makes me retarded to believe that team basketball is better and harder to play than a bunch of athletic guys playing one on one for 48 minutes. The Mavericks, Suns, Spurs, and Pistons have success because they play as a team. They didn't have all the best athletes in the NBA. Yeah, Shaq is really tearing it up right now. Yao is also a tremendous defensive player that can shut anyone down. That's not even mentioning the other great centers like Brad Miller and Marcus Camby. The Center position sucks right now. I'm not saying a prime Walton would be better than a prime Shaq, but he'd be a lot better overall than the current Shaq, Yao, Camby, and Brad Miller.</div>Stop hating on Shaq. He still averaged over 18 and 9 in the playoffs. Last time i checked, those are just as good as waltons numbers over his career...as a matter of fact, shaqs worst playoff season ever is better than alot of bill waltons regular season numbers.....i dont want you to say i base everything on stats because how many times have u seen bill walton play? Also, it worked for the heat so obviously, Shaq didnt need to do all the work in order for them to win. And Yao would dominate Bill Walton. Yao is now the best center in the NBA. period
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jul 20 2006, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yao is now the best center in the NBA. period</div> He puts up better stats but dominance in the L is WAY better than statistics. Oh and in Game 7 of the Pistons Series....Lebrons teammates went 9/41 which should explain the whole team overall's bad peformance
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jul 20 2006, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>last time i checked Yao Ming does dominate. When both him and tracy where healthy, they killed</div>He's not dominant when he's stoppable. O'Neal is basically unstoppable and a ring machine, Ming hasn't been in the league long enough to compete at Shaq's level yet
Game 7 was pretty bad and theres no denying it, and yes CB I know they all played subpar but I want to show you a few good stats myself. On the Cleveland's three wins:Game 3: LeBron 21 points, Flip Murray 13 points, Anderson Varejao 16 points.Game 4: LeBron 22 points, Eric Snow 12 points, Anderson with 10.Game 5: LeBron 32 points, Z 14 points, Donny 14 points.Now you ask, what do these stats have to do with anything? Besides game 5 LeBron's teamates CARRIED him. Yes, he scored more but without everyone else averaging there 14's and 15's they would've lost. Game 7 is the biggest exception, Detroit let Cleveland shoot to try to win the game and they failed miserably. Also, LeBron was double teamed the entire series, not just that one game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 20 2006, 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He's not dominant when he's stoppable. O'Neal is basically unstoppable and a ring machine, Ming hasn't been in the league long enough to compete at Shaq's level yet</div>dude, you just said that shaq isnt looking to great yet. every player in the league is stoppable...he is tougher to stop than you think. if u watch basketball, you would know that he killed in the 2nd half of this season. he was nearly "unstopable"
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ Jul 20 2006, 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Game 7 was pretty bad and theres no denying it, and yes CB I know they all played subpar but I want to show you a few good stats myself. On the Cleveland's three wins:Game 3: LeBron 21 points, Flip Murray 13 points, Anderson Varejao 16 points.Game 4: LeBron 22 points, Eric Snow 12 points, Anderson with 10.Game 5: LeBron 32 points, Z 14 points, Donny 14 points.Now you ask, what do these stats have to do with anything? Besides game 5 LeBron's teamates CARRIED him. Yes, he scored more but without everyone else averaging there 14's and 15's they would've lost. Game 7 is the biggest exception, Detroit let Cleveland shoot to try to win the game and they failed miserably. Also, LeBron was double teamed the entire series, not just that one game.</div>LeBron's teammates carried him? No no sir... :no1:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 21 2006, 12:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>LeBron's teammates carried him? No no sir... :no1:</div>Your right sir, LeBron can average 80 points all by himself. Who needs teamates anyways.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jul 20 2006, 11:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>dude, you just said that shaq isnt looking to great yet. every player in the league is stoppable...he is tougher to stop than you think. if u watch basketball, you would know that he killed in the 2nd half of this season. he was nearly "unstopable"</div>What the hell are you talking about? Oh and nice try with the common "watch basketball" comment...I LIVE IN Houston pal, Yao put up great stats but he's NOT as dominant as Yao...Dominance > Stats...anytime And I love Yao...second best center in the league, but hes NOT as good as Shaq yet<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ Jul 20 2006, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your right sir, LeBron can average 80 points all by himself. Who needs teamates anyways.</div>Lol man, LeBron is the SOLE REASON the Cavs are even in the playoffs, dont say something like LeBrons teammates carried him when HEs the one carrying the Cavaliers, HES the one setting up his teammates, HES the reason there avaraging those points in the first place
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jul 21 2006, 12:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Stop hating on Shaq. He still averaged over 18 and 9 in the playoffs. Last time i checked, those are just as good as waltons numbers over his career...as a matter of fact, shaqs worst playoff season ever is better than alot of bill waltons regular season numbers.....i dont want you to say i base everything on stats because how many times have u seen bill walton play? Also, it worked for the heat so obviously, Shaq didnt need to do all the work in order for them to win. And Yao would dominate Bill Walton. Yao is now the best center in the NBA. period</div>Right, only I'm talking about a prime Walton. Not the one who's feet and ankles were shattered after a few years. I've seen probably 5 Walton games on Classic from when he played for UCLA and The Blazers. While that isn't as much as I've seen of Yao or Shaq, it is enough to let me know what kind of player he is. You make a good point about Shaq not having to do all the work in the regular season, but when he got to the playoffs he could've done a little more to help D-Wade. I think we'll all agree on that. :happy0144: I love how you say Yao would dominate Walton without ever having seen him play. I also love how you didn't even respond to any of my points about your rediculous assertion that the players now are better than the players from the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Yao is very good, in fact last season he was great. But he isn't going to just dominate a former MVP and Finals MVP with a championship ring. Those are a few things that Yao doesn't have, so try to show Walton and all the other players of the past little respect.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 21 2006, 12:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lol man, LeBron is the SOLE REASON the Cavs are even in the playoffs, dont say something like LeBrons teammates carried him when HEs the one carrying the Cavaliers, HES the one setting up his teammates, HES the reason there avaraging those points in the first place</div>I'll agree with you on the playoff comment but it stops there. He sets up his teamates but who shoots the ball and makes it in? Hes the reason they average that? You've got to be kidding me... He PART of the reason but the real reason lies within the player themselves. If not then why didn't LeBron setup his teamates in game 7? I mean LeBron is the reason they score right? Again, if his teamates don't score the 15's and 14 points per game the result is a loss.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ Jul 21 2006, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'll agree with you on the playoff comment but it stops there. He sets up his teamates but who shoots the ball and makes it in? Hes the reason they average that? You've got to be kidding me... He PART of the reason but the real reason lies within the player themselves. If not then why didn't LeBron setup his teamates in game 7? I mean LeBron is the reason they score right? Again, if his teamates don't score the 15's and 14 points per game the result is a loss.</div>Well duh...lmao, thats how a basketball game operates...if Shaq and co. werent to score 15 and + they wouldn't win neither...same with every team, one player can't bring the scoring load by himself, unless they're playing Toronto and his name is Kobe Bryant He did but they went 9/41, if you watched the game, his teammates were getting fair looks but it wouldnt go in so the defense was focused primarily on Lebron who brought the scoring load pretty much that game, his second man scored 10 Points and half of them were from the charity stripe...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 21 2006, 01:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well duh...lmao, thats how a basketball game operates...if Shaq and co. werent to score 15 and + they wouldn't win neither...same with every team, one player can't bring the scoring load by himself, unless they're playing Toronto and his name is Kobe Bryant He did but they went 9/41, if you watched the game, his teammates were getting fair looks but it wouldnt go in so the defense was focused primarily on Lebron who brought the scoring load pretty much that game, his second man scored 10 Points and half of them were from the charity stripe...</div>Yeah but there teamates didn't play <u>as well</u> in the games they won compared to the ones they lost. Yes LeBron is the leader but every leader needs his teamates to step up. I did bother watching the game and it was pretty sad in general but you can't say his teamates weren't as important as LeBron himself in all those wins.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>unless they're playing Toronto and his name is Kobe Bryant </div>Ha ha, good one :beerchug:It's funny how a topic can go from retired players who didn't win a ring to LeBron and how he played in the playoffs.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 21 2006, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He's not dominant when he's stoppable. O'Neal is basically unstoppable and a ring machine, Ming hasn't been in the league long enough to compete at Shaq's level yet</div>Unstoppable? Then why did he have 14 games out of 59 with either 15 or under points? Im pretty sure that IS stoppable..He gets into foul trouble quite a bit, and in some games he just gets into foul trouble and doesnt make an impact at all.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah but there teamates didn't play <u>as well</u> in the games they won compared to the ones they lost. Yes LeBron is the leader but every leader needs his teamates to step up. I did bother watching the game and it was pretty sad in general but you can't say his teamates weren't as important as LeBron himself in all those wins.</div>Lol thats kind of a dumb thing to say..LeBron IS the most important on his team...that's like saying "Euro Magic" was just as important as MJ in the championships because without his points they would've lost...ONE PERSON can't bring the scoring load by himself dude, understand that, I hope you aren't trying to argue that James isnt the most important neither. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Unstoppable? Then why did he have 14 games out of 59 with either 15 or under points? Im pretty sure that IS stoppable..He gets into foul trouble quite a bit, and in some games he just gets into foul trouble and doesnt make an impact at all.</div>Stats dont equal dominance..Tim Duncan is dominant, does he have the scoring title? Come with better reasoning than that.. and he averaged 20 for the whole season so I dont know what your point is
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 21 2006, 01:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lol thats kind of a dumb thing to say..LeBron IS the most important on his team...that's like saying "Euro Magic" was just as important as MJ in the championships because without his points they would've lost...ONE PERSON can't bring the scoring load by himself dude, understand that, I hope you aren't trying to argue that James isnt the most important neither.</div>Right and it takes a TEAM effort, how many times does LeBron score 30? Alot. How many times does Anderson score 16? Not to many. LeBron couldn't have done it without his teamates stepping up and playing better, since when is 22 points good for LeBron anyway? I think this debate is going in the wrong way and I feel kinda lost on what were talking about so i'll just leave it at that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ Jul 21 2006, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Right and it takes a TEAM effort, how many times does LeBron score 30? Alot. How many times does Anderson score 16? Not to many. LeBron couldn't have done it without his teamates stepping up and playing better, since when is 22 points good for LeBron anyway? I think this debate is going in the wrong way and I feel kinda lost on what were talking about so i'll just leave it at that.</div>Im a little lost too..i Just got in here out of nowhere, I didnt know where it even started..What was the original question at hand where James came into view ?
We're not talking about dominant. You used the word unstoppable. So I proved that Shaq is stoppable on offense.
