<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He also outweighed opponents by a ton, and was lightyears ahead of the competition in terms of athelticism.</div>Actually, you're describing Shaq. Shaq was just as heavy, and very athletic. He was ahead everybody as well. No one could stop him, basically.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>There was also no 3 second rules</div>Wrong. That was instituted in 1936, way before Wilt's time. And if you're talking about the defensive three seconds, that was instituted only 5 years ago, after the bulk of Shaq's prime was played.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq is the far more talented player, more agile, yet also larger and stronger. If they played 1 on 1, or were put on 2 teams with same level of talent on each team, Shaq would win each time.</div>You're wrong there as well. Wilt had huge athleticism. In fact, he was (I believe) the only player ever to block Jabbar's sky hook.He played as a guard for the Globetrotters, and could dribble as well as any guard.
[quote name='Hang Eleven' post='123413' date='Jul 24 2006, 10:28 PM']Actually, you're describing Shaw. Shaq was just as heavy, and very athletic. He was ahead everybody as well. No one could stop him, basically.[/quote]Shaq had to play other 7ftr's like Hakeem, Duncan, KG, Yao, Ewing, Robinson, etc... Wilt's only competition was Bill Russel. Everyone else was a 6'9'' white boy with no strenght or athleticism. Oops, my bad. Wilt had athleticism, and I acknowledged that, but Shaq has a 30 inch jump, overpowers EVERYONE, and weighs more. And I said more agile, not necassarily more athletic. Shaq has that amazing spin move, and better footwork in paint (this is due to far better coaching and natural evolution of game). And I believe Shaq is only player in NBA to ever take down a whole hoop like he did (which he did twice). And Shaq can do a 360 dunk, has a 30 inch jump, outweighs and has more power than Wilt, and didn't have all the benefits Wilt had with FAR less competition, faster paced games (like 130PPG was the average), and no complex defenses where any player can be slowed down greatly like Shaq had to go through.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq had to play other 7ftr's like Hakeem, Duncan, KG, Yao, Ewing, Robinson, etc... Wilt's only competition was Bill Russel. Everyone else was a 6'9'' white boy with no strenght or athleticism.</div>Ya, only guys like Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar played in Wilt's day. It's not like they actually were any good, oh no.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hang Eleven @ Jul 24 2006, 09:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ya, only guys like Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar played in Wilt's day. It's not like they actually were any good, oh no.</div>Don't forget Bill Russell.EDIT:I didn't realize that Nitro said Russell
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hang Eleven @ Jul 25 2006, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ya, only guys like Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar played in Wilt's day. It's not like they actually were any good, oh no.</div>Bob Pettit- 6'9'', 215lbs (skinnier than Kobe/T-Mac)Dolph Schayes- 6'8'', 215lbs (think LeBron's height, with T-Mac/Kobe's weight)Walt Bellamy- 6'11'', 245lbs (think Dwight Howard-ish size), but only 20PPG and 16RPG, which was only all star numbers back thenNate Thurmond- 6'11'', 235lbs (15PPG, 15RPG)Willis Reed- 6'10'', 240lbs (19PPG, 13RPG)Kareem- 7'2'', 265lbs (by the time he came to NBA, Wilt was on the decline with only 20PPG)Now all of them are the best of the era, yet Wilt was 7'2'', 275lbs. Outside of Kareem, there was no one who matched Wilt physically, or even came close. Hell, Bill Russel, the other dominant big man of the era, was only 6'10'', 220lbs (think T-Mac-ish height and weight). And once again, the games were faster paced and scoring was way over 100PPG, there was no athelticism or strength amongst players to be found (not to mention the huge physical advantage of Wilt's huge body and wingspan), and no complex defenses to help slow down a player like Wilt. All of these things are the reasons Wilt was so dominant. Now you look at Shaq, with more 'chips, more finals MVP's, and amazing numbers (24PPG, 12RPG, 58% shooting, and 3APG to Wilt 30PPG, 22RPG, 54% shooting, 4APG). Not to mention he had to deal with amazing defenses in the 90's, a much slowed down game, far more competition, yet still has more rings, finals MVP's, and overall more successful career (IMO).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Bob Pettit- 6'9'', 215lbs (skinnier than Kobe/T-Mac)Dolph Schayes- 6'8'', 215lbs (think LeBron's height, with T-Mac/Kobe's weight)Walt Bellamy- 6'11'', 245lbs (think Dwight Howard-ish size), but only 20PPG and 16RPG, which was only all star numbers back thenNate Thurmond- 6'11'', 235lbs (15PPG, 15RPG)Willis Reed- 6'10'', 240lbs (19PPG, 13RPG)Kareem- 7'2'', 265lbs (by the time he came to NBA, Wilt was on the decline with only 20PPG)Bill Russell- Wilt Chamberlain- 7-1, 260Now all of them are the best of the era, yet Wilt was 7'2'', 275lbs. Outside of Kareem, there was no one who matched Wilt physically, or even came close. Hell, Bill Russel, the other dominant big man of the era, was only 6'10'', 220lbs (think T-Mac-ish height and weight).</div>Hakeem Olajuwon- 6-10, 255Tim Duncan- 6-10, 248Kevin Garnett- 6-11, 220Yao Ming- 7-6, 300Ewing- 6-9, 240Robinson- 7-1, 235Shaquille O'Neal- 7-1, 300That's the list of guys Shaq played against. I've added Wilt to your list. Now, I've done the math (you can check it if you want), and Wilt outweighed the guys he played against (including Russell) by an average of 25 pounds. Then, I calculated Shaq -- 50 pounds. And that's calculated with Shaq weighing only 300 pounds -- he actually weighs about 320 at least now, and even more in his prime. So, actually, Shaq would have had more of an advantage than Wilt did.
First of all Wilt weighed 275lbs, check his NBA.com bio.Secondly, as the game has progressed, so have the training techniques. All those players are far more athletic and have far less body fat % than the players Wilt played against. Also, as I said, defenses are far more complexed nowadays. Teams were averaging well over 120PPG or so when Wilt played, but in '90's it was below 100PPG. There has never been a player that attracted as much attention in paint as Shaq has/had.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>First of all Wilt weighed 275lbs, check his NBA.com bio.</div>And Shaq, according to his NBA.com profile, actually weighs 325 pounds. I used his basketball-reference.com profile. If you recalculate it using their real weights then it would still be almost the same.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Secondly, as the game has progressed, so have the training techniques. All those players are far more athletic and have far less body fat % than the players Wilt played against.</div>So if Wilt had those training techniques, he would be even more athletic than Shaq now.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Also, as I said, defenses are far more complexed nowadays. Teams were averaging well over 120PPG or so when Wilt played, but in '90's it was below 100PPG. There has never been a player that attracted as much attention in paint as Shaq has/had.</div>Not in the least. Wilt was double-teamed, triple-teamed, whatever. And his opponents were much rougher with him than would be allowed today. He was so big that the refs actually ignored fouls against him so he wouldn't become unstoppable.
1) You're comparing that to players that he faced back then, the best players. But look at the other "average" players he faced, like those skinny little white boys. There was no contest.2) But he'd also have to face tougher one on one defense/help defense, etc...3) I never said he wasn't doubled. But nowadays you can take a player out of the game with defense. Every team in the LA era would have defenses set up just to stop Shaq, special zones that payed 100% attention to every move Shaq made. And again, players are much stronger and quicker these days, so you aren't getting through a triple team as easily as Wilt could against unathletic, weak players. Back in the day of Wilt they didn't have those kind of defenses, just if he got the ball in paint go and help.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>1) You're comparing that to players that he faced back then, the best players. But look at the other "average" players he faced, like those skinny little white boys. There was no contest.</div>But if you look at the average players that Shaq played against, you also see that they had even more of a disadvantage than the players you listed like Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, etc.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>3) I never said he wasn't doubled. But nowadays you can take a player out of the game with defense. Every team in the LA era would have defenses set up just to stop Shaq, special zones that payed 100% attention to every move Shaq made. And again, players are much stronger and quicker these days, so you aren't getting through a triple team as easily as Wilt could against unathletic, weak players. Back in the day of Wilt they didn't have those kind of defenses, just if he got the ball in paint go and help.</div>I'll repeat myself. The zone defense was institued in the 2002 season. That was when Shaq was thirty, and the bulk of his prime, and his huge stats, were over with. So, that wonderful 30/14 season was done with the same rules that Wilt had, if not less stringent.Granted, the faster pace of the 60s somewhat inflated the stats. But they were going no faster than, say, the Suns of lats season or the one before that. And how much are their stats inflated. Some, but not a huge difference. 50 points is still 50 points, and regardless of the pace, that is far above anything Shaq can do, even if Shaq had played in that era.
Yes, but not like in the '60's. All those players, physically, can SOMEWHAT deal with Shaq. There was still defenses that could really slow down Shaq. Not necassarily a zone defense, but defenses which whenever Shaq touched the ball he was double teamed whenever he got with 5-7ft from hoop, and there was always an eye on him. Yes, they did play faster paced than Suns. It is no wonder that most great player that era grabbed 14-16 RPG to go along with 20PPG. Most games were over 120PPG, and it allowed for tons more oppertunities. Less athletes, less strength training (most didnt even do weight lifting), and defenses that were far less complex to go along with less defensive knowledge amongst players is reason Wilt was so dominant. Realize, that is nothing to take away from Wilt, he was a phenom. But I feel Shaq had to deal with more obstacles, yet still was just as dominant considering different tempo of game, and he won 4 'chips and was more successful.I'm done with this, but good debating though. It's a really hard one to debate because of them playing in such different eras.
Id give the edge to shaq simply because he played a more players closer to his height and size. Wilt was great from wat i hear and read but i have to give it to shaq
I must say, Wilt had some crazy post moves. He was also a great passer and a dominant on the boardss. I think he's game wouldn't regress alot, he'd still be the best C of this generation.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Jul 25 2006, 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Has anyone even watched Wilt in his prime extensively?</div>I have. Anybody who thinks Shaq is even close to Wilt is just crazy. Wilt would own Shaq any day of the week. Wilt Chamberlain played his whole career with 3 or 4 guys hanging on him all the time. And that was when refs were tough and didn't call anything. Wilt Chamberlain had far more weapons that Shaq can dream of. Wilt can shoot the fallaway, the finger roll(Wilt made that shot, not George Gervin) and the turn around jumper. Wilt Chamberlain was an EXEPTIONAL ahtlete and had amazing quickness and stamina. Whens the last time Shaq played 48 minutes? Wilt AVERAGED 48.5 for a season. Compared to Wilt, Shaq rebounds like a panzy. Wilt averaged 27 rebounds(Shaq's career high is 28) per game AS A ROOKIE, in a faster, tougher and much more physical league than this slow crap we have today. Speaking of which, Shaq can't even keep up in today's game, he wouldn't stand a chance in Wilt's time when EVERY team averaged MORE than 110 points per game. Wilt Chamberlain would DOMINATE todays soft ass league and would smack the s*hit out of Shaq and his peeps. Shaq may be great in today's league, but that's just because Wilt Chamberlain isn't alive to show us what greatness REALLY is about. Last but not least: The NBA tried countless times to change rules in order to slow Wilt. Yet he STILL dominated the game.so no, Shaq isn't good enough to hold Wilt's jock.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michael Bryant @ Aug 11 2006, 06:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have. Anybody who thinks Shaq is even close to Wilt is just crazy. Wilt would own Shaq any day of the week. Wilt Chamberlain played his whole career with 3 or 4 guys hanging on him all the time. And that was when refs were tough and didn't call anything. Wilt Chamberlain had far more weapons that Shaq can dream of. Wilt can shoot the fallaway, the finger roll(Wilt made that shot, not George Gervin) and the turn around jumper. Wilt Chamberlain was an EXEPTIONAL ahtlete and had amazing quickness and stamina. Whens the last time Shaq played 48 minutes? Wilt AVERAGED 48.5 for a season. Compared to Wilt, Shaq rebounds like a panzy. Wilt averaged 27 rebounds(Shaq's career high is 28) per game AS A ROOKIE, in a faster, tougher and much more physical league than this slow crap we have today. Speaking of which, Shaq can't even keep up in today's game, he wouldn't stand a chance in Wilt's time when EVERY team averaged MORE than 110 points per game. Wilt Chamberlain would DOMINATE todays soft ass league and would smack the s*hit out of Shaq and his peeps. Shaq may be great in today's league, but that's just because Wilt Chamberlain isn't alive to show us what greatness REALLY is about. Last but not least: The NBA tried countless times to change rules in order to slow Wilt. Yet he STILL dominated the game.so no, Shaq isn't good enough to hold Wilt's jock.</div>Seriously, wilt was a man among children. He's length added to his moves and explosiveness was unstopbbale. And it's true, wilt had some crazy moves.
Wilt's records are one of the most overrated things in basketball. Put Shaq up against 6'8 skinny white guys every night without the 3 second in the KEy rule and he would flat out dominate too. The 2000 Shaq was the greatest individual player I have ever seen in one season. Shaq against 6'8 skinny white guys without 3 seconds in the key rule = 100 PPG for Shaq. This was where it was illegal for defenses to throw multiple guys at one player too.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq up against 6'8 skinny white guys every night without the 3 second in the KEy rule and he would flat out dominate too.</div>First of all, as I have stated in previous posts, there was already a 3-second rule in effect. Secondly, regardless, Wilt always had two to three guys hanging on them.Did you, by any chance, read any of the previous posts? I said all this before.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diesel @ Aug 12 2006, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wilt's records are one of the most overrated things in basketball. Put Shaq up against 6'8 skinny white guys every night without the 3 second in the KEy rule and he would flat out dominate too. The 2000 Shaq was the greatest individual player I have ever seen in one season. Shaq against 6'8 skinny white guys without 3 seconds in the key rule = 100 PPG for Shaq. This was where it was illegal for defenses to throw multiple guys at one player too.</div>Have you ever watched Wilt? You obviously haven't. I'll break it down for you, shaq' offensive movesjump step then that one handed hookback up and shoot or dunkWilt on the other hand had some crazy post moves. He's footwork was amazing, he could hit turnarounds with ease something shaq has never shown. He's turn around fingeroll is something shaq has never done. Wilt's athletiscm combined with his moves would make sure he'd dominate the league. Just think of him as a better version of Hakeem, hakeem screwed shaq over and shaq even admitted this. Shaq would not be able to Guard wilt because wilt is much more agile then him and would confuse him.So no, don't comment on stuff you know nothing about. Shaq is not better than wilt because he's not the offensive force wilt was and wilt was a superior passer and defender. Over the past couple of days i've been watching wilt and i'm sorry but his better than shaq.Stop the bias and accept what wilt is the greatest center ever. I'm a staunch supporter of laker shaq and i'm sorry but he is not better than wilt. Actually, he isn't close.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hang Eleven @ Aug 12 2006, 01:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First of all, as I have stated in previous posts, there was already a 3-second rule in effect. Secondly, regardless, Wilt always had two to three guys hanging on them.Did you, by any chance, read any of the previous posts? I said all this before.</div>No I didn't read any of this actually. Are you 100% sure that the 3 second rule was in effect in Wilts dominant years? Maybe it is the lane which was waytttt smaller back in Wilts time I'm thinking of. There was no offensive goal tending rule either in his time. two-three guys hanging on him? That wasi llegal defense back in the day buddy.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Have you ever watched Wilt? You obviously haven't. I'll break it down for you, shaq' offensive movesjump step then that one handed hookback up and shoot or dunkWilt on the other hand had some crazy post moves. He's footwork was amazing, he could hit turnarounds with ease something shaq has never shown. He's turn around fingeroll is something shaq has never done. Wilt's athletiscm combined with his moves would make sure he'd dominate the league. Just think of him as a better version of Hakeem, hakeem screwed shaq over and shaq even admitted this. Shaq would not be able to Guard wilt because wilt is much more agile then him and would confuse him.So no, don't comment on stuff you know nothing about. Shaq is not better than wilt because he's not the offensive force wilt was and wilt was a superior passer and defender. Over the past couple of days i've been watching wilt and i'm sorry but his better than shaq.Stop the bias and accept what wilt is the greatest center ever. I'm a staunch supporter of laker shaq and i'm sorry but he is not better than wilt. Actually, he isn't close.</div>Have YOU ever watched Wilt? Your 15 dude. All you know are those Classic games they show on NBA TV and crap. Don't act like you experienced it. That sh*t pisses me off. Who cares how many moves you have? As long as you get the job done. 4 titles being the best bigman in the middle. Wilt couldn't win until he had several hall of famers on his team AND this was when there was only 12 teams in the league. How do you know Shaq wouldn't be able to guard Wilt? Have you personally seen them both battle head to head? I think not. Dude the 2000 Shaq was arguably the most unstioppable offensive force to ever see the NBA. Imagine the 2000 Shaq going up against some 6'8 tall skinny white guy every night. Just imagine it. Take your time with it too. Shaq would f*cking slaughter him."I put Shaquille ahead of Wilt. Chamberlain didn't have enough titles. But he had enormous numbers and that's part of greatness." - Kevin LougheryI'll trust him before some guy on the internet.
