Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 22 2006, 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Very well said bro, I agree with it all except for the roster comment:<u>In 1999...</u>-David Robinson was STILL playing amazing, he was STIL the same defensive monster dude...he put up 16 and 10 which is better than anyone KG ever even played with-The whole squad had good role players...and they had Avery <u>In 2003...</u>-The Admiral was far past his prime but was still averaging 8.5 and 8, solid numbers but not "ADMIRAL" numbers...Parker was also putting up solid stats, basically the same as today but like a 2 PPG Boost, well because that was arguably Duncan's best season and Tony steadily got more touches...Manu is not at the level he is today, well because he barely took any shots that season, Duncan was the go to guy that season and although he still is, the scoring options are slowly becoming split and going different directions. And remeber Kerr? He could be called a Wally World type player but better shooter.And keep in mind KG had Sam and Latrell for ONE SEASON</div>I will give you that in 99, Robinson was still a good player. But who else did they have on that team that was good? They didnt have anybody else but role players that knew their role on the team. Sean Elliot, Mario Ellie, and Avery Johnson were the other 3 guys that rounded out the starting lineup. That is hardly a good starting lineup for a team that only lost TWO games the entire playoffs. They swept a team in Kobe and Shaq and only gaveup a 1 win to KG and the T-wolves in the first round, and 1 win to New York in the finals. That great success isnt because of Tim Duncan's teammattes. It is because of none other than Tim DuncanNow to 2003 when the Spurs won their championship and the Minnessota T-Wolves were eliminated by the Spurs. The T-wolves had at the center position, Michael Olowakandi who did nothing for them in the playoffs..i will give you that. But look at the other positions surrounding KG. At the point guard spot, you have an experienced PG in the playoffs who is coming off of a great season. He averaged 20 ppg in the regular season and also 7.3 assists.(he averaged 16 a game in the playoffs) He had a great season and he was the real guy that fueled this Minnessota team. At the 2 guard spot, you have Lutrell Sprewell. He averaged 17 ppg in the regular season and an astonishing 20 points per game in the playoffs. At the small forward spot, Wally got you 10 a night during the season and 11 a night in the playoffs.After looking at what i just showed you, you cannot tell me that SA had a better supporting cast than Minny did. It was simply that Tim Ducan had more drive, determination, and leadership skills than KG.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying he should have won it all in his first season with Cassell and Sprewell (which I think they would have made it to the Finals had Cassell not been injured in the WCF)... I'm saying he should have been able to lead a team out of the first round ATLEAST once WITHOUT Cassell and Sprewell (before they arrived in Minnesota) if he's as great a leader as everybody makes him out to be (i.e. media, fans, etc.). He's NOT a great leader... he can't carry a team on his back... and thus he is overrated as a leader.He had Marbury for three years... Szczerbiack for six-and-a-half years... he had Troy Hudson... Trenton Hassell... he's had some capable players around him, but he just doesn't demand the ball at the end of games, and that is what holds him back. I'm not questioning his skills or his will to win, but he's just not a great leader, can't carry a team on his back... and thus is overrated as a leader.If he is as GREAT a big man as people claim him to be, you would think he would be able to atleast get his team out of the first round atleast ONCE without Cassell and Spree.The only reason KG won that MVP in 2003-04 was because of Cassell and Spree. They were the reason that team made it as far as they did... not Garnett.</div>He can't, all his teammates have been way too inconsistent and he's never had a great role player that actually has done something in his career, other than the '04 Squad which was really only as a full that season. Robinson, Parker, Ginobli, Bowen > Sprewell, Cassell, Wally, or any player KG has ever played with for that matter. No single person has or can carry a terrible team far into the playoffs (besides AI )...not MJ, not Wilt, not Russell....and if anyone had it HARDLY EVER happens dude. Starbury..what can I say, he put up solid stats but the kid is a cancer, there's a reason HE HIMSELF has never been past the 1st round, you can't put players with absolutely no playoff experience at all and lower it to the expectation that KG will bring a playoff berth from that. Wally World is a one dimensional shooter, that's it, he's like another Kyle Korver, kid can shoot but no defense, plus he barely started as a Wolf, and when he did he made got an all star, he's an all star caliber player but he's not amazing considering the All Star game is mainly scoring points and that's it. Hudson started one full season and was pretty much unheard of ever since from injuries, setbacks...I'd hardly call him a great side kick neither, and Trenton...well he's decent but I'd hardly call him a great side kick neither, not up to par stilll with Tony, Manu, etc. Kind of like how you expect MJ to get to a championship without an allstar squad, or Bill Russell getting a ring without a lineup of Hall of Famers, face it dude, NOONE has really ever done it and KG has had ONE legitimate playoff squad with Sam and Latrell who aren't nearly as good as the playoff squads that Duncan has played with.The reason KG won the MVP was because of KG. He had better teammates who improved him, but don't give them the credit for everything, he had a 1 PPG boost from the year before, sh*t and I'd doubt those two could get to the playoffs with Kandi-Man in KG's position
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I will give you that in 99, Robinson was still a good player. But who else did they have on that team that was good? They didnt have anybody else but role players that knew their role on the team. Sean Elliot, Mario Ellie, and Avery Johnson were the other 3 guys that rounded out the starting lineup. That is hardly a good starting lineup for a team that only lost TWO games the entire playoffs. They swept a team in Kobe and Shaq and only gaveup a 1 win to KG and the T-wolves in the first round, and 1 win to New York in the finals. That great success isnt because of Tim Duncan's teammattes. It is because of none other than Tim DuncanNow to 2003 when the Spurs won their championship and the Minnessota T-Wolves were eliminated by the Spurs. The T-wolves had at the center position, Michael Olowakandi who did nothing for them in the playoffs..i will give you that. But look at the other positions surrounding KG. At the point guard spot, you have an experienced PG in the playoffs who is coming off of a great season. He averaged 20 ppg in the regular season and also 7.3 assists.(he averaged 16 a game in the playoffs) He had a great season and he was the real guy that fueled this Minnessota team. At the 2 guard spot, you have Lutrell Sprewell. He averaged 17 ppg in the regular season and an astonishing 20 points per game in the playoffs. At the small forward spot, Wally got you 10 a night during the season and 11 a night in the playoffs.After looking at what i just showed you, you cannot tell me that SA had a better supporting cast than Minny did. It was simply that Tim Ducan had more drive, determination, and leadership skills than KG.</div>Yeah....why are you trying to argue something I already acknowledged lol? Duncan is the better winner, I'm just saying KG has NEVER HAD any superstar teammates to work with like Duncan. In 2003, the Wolves were eliminated by the Lakers, I hope you mean the 2004 Playoffs where the Wolves got to the WCF, the Spurs also were eliminated by the Lakers that year...you can argue that squad did better but they were 5th in Offense for a reason, KG was scoring more, everyone on the team was scoring more, the Spurs were 16th in Offense that season too so that's not very unexpected..If you want to compare the '05 Spurs to the '04 Wolves then...A young guy vs. a guy past his prime...Latrell did better by .8 in PPG but Manu did better in just about everything including percentages, you can the two are just about equal in terms of defense too. Another young player vs. a guy past his prime...Tony Parker and Sam...Cassell did better on paper, Parker exceled in the Playoffs...Parker is also the FAR better defender. And put that in with one of the best defenders in the league against an injury riddled player. The Spurs concentration was Defense, the Wolves were more concentrated on Offense...and well Defense wins championships, which Duncan is ALSO better at Tim is the better player, but don't go off saying KG is a scrub just because he's never been past the 1st round WITHOUT a legitimate pair of playoff capable teams.
Re: Battle of the 21's I'll go with Garnett, just cause his post play is just so much more unstoppable. When i watch him it's like he'll never miss one of those turnaround fadeaways
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 22 2006, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He averaged 8.5 and 8...and I said he was CONSIDERED a profilic star...still, the Spurs were 6th on Offense and 3rd on defense...the Sixth man averaged 10 and 6....The team played great as a whole even though noone had an immediate impact because of their name.</div>Still, that isnt alot of help. But yet he still took them to the NBA Championship! Just trying to prove a point here, because you were talking about how little help KG has and had.
Re: Battle of the 21's I also like Garnett. I absolutely HATE comparing players by championships because all that means to me is that 1 of them ended up on the better team. Both players can score(Garnett has had the edge lately) and Duncan has a little edge on D, but Garnett is more versatile, rebounds better and passes better also. I admire Duncan's accomplishments in the postseason but the one year that Garnett got some decent teammates he went to Game 7, I think, of the Western Conference Finals. If they could have kept that team together I think they could have won a championship. Garnett has also been more healthy during his career. He's played almost 40 more games than Duncan the last 3 years.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 22 2006, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He can't, all his teammates have been way too inconsistent and he's never had a great role player that actually has done something in his career, other than the '04 Squad which was really only as a full that season. Robinson, Parker, Ginobli, Bowen > Sprewell, Cassell, Wally, or any player KG has ever played with for that matter. No single person has or can carry a terrible team far into the playoffs (besides AI )...not MJ, not Wilt, not Russell....and if anyone had it HARDLY EVER happens dude. Starbury..what can I say, he put up solid stats but the kid is a cancer, there's a reason HE HIMSELF has never been past the 1st round, you can't put players with absolutely no playoff experience at all and lower it to the expectation that KG will bring a playoff berth from that. Wally World is a one dimensional shooter, that's it, he's like another Kyle Korver, kid can shoot but no defense, plus he barely started as a Wolf, and when he did he made got an all star, he's an all star caliber player but he's not amazing considering the All Star game is mainly scoring points and that's it. Hudson started one full season and was pretty much unheard of ever since from injuries, setbacks...I'd hardly call him a great side kick neither, and Trenton...well he's decent but I'd hardly call him a great side kick neither, not up to par stilll with Tony, Manu, etc. Kind of like how you expect MJ to get to a championship without an allstar squad, or Bill Russell getting a ring without a lineup of Hall of Famers, face it dude, NOONE has really ever done it and KG has had ONE legitimate playoff squad with Sam and Latrell who aren't nearly as good as the playoff squads that Duncan has played with.The reason KG won the MVP was because of KG. He had better teammates who improved him, but don't give them the credit for everything, he had a 1 PPG boost from the year before, sh*t and I'd doubt those two could get to the playoffs with Kandi-Man in KG's position </div>I'm not saying Wally, Marbury, Hassell, Hudson, etc. are equal to what Duncan has/had around him... but they are CAPABLE players... they are players that KG should have been able to take past the first round. I'm not saying he should have won a championship or anything with those guys... but atleast win a playoff series! He couldn't do that! Face it... KG is a great individual player, but the dude is not a winner... he's not a leader... thus he is overrated in those areas.See, you're basically saying the same things as me, but disagreeing with me when I say that he is overrated as a leader because he cannot guide a team. The year they went to the WCF, he wasn't the biggest reason they went there... it was Cassell and Sprewell. They opened things up for KG... they took the responsibility (well, Cassell mainly did) of closing out games on the offensive end... which is something KG has never done consistently. He just doesn't demand the ball down the stretch like he should and close the games either with his scoring or passing. That's been the knock on him his entire career... that and the fact that he's not a winner.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigMo763 @ Jul 22 2006, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not saying Wally, Marbury, Hassell, Hudson, etc. are equal to what Duncan has/had around him... but they are CAPABLE players... they are players that KG should have been able to take past the first round. I'm not saying he should have won a championship or anything with those guys... but atleast win a playoff series! He couldn't do that! Face it... KG is a great individual player, but the dude is not a winner... he's not a leader... thus he is overrated in those areas.See, you're basically saying the same things as me, but disagreeing with me when I say that he is overrated as a leader because he cannot guide a team. The year they went to the WCF, he wasn't the biggest reason they went there... it was Cassell and Sprewell. They opened things up for KG... they took the responsibility (well, Cassell mainly did) of closing out games on the offensive end... which is something KG has never done consistently. He just doesn't demand the ball down the stretch like he should and close the games either with his scoring or passing. That's been the knock on him his entire career... that and the fact that he's not a winner.</div>Marbury has been on better teams than that T-Wolves team and hasn't done anything. Now HE is not a winner. And you're talking about Trenton Hassell? 6 points, 3 rebounds and 2 assists in 27.7 min are his career averages. Very impressive, yeah.... Troy Hudson's best season was when he averaged 14 points and 5 assists. That's not very good and in the rest of his career he wasn't even really close to that either. His next best season he averaged 3 less points and 2 less assists. :no1: Garnett has only had 1 decent team and he did well. It's pretty amazing that he even took some of the teams he's had to so many playoff appearances.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigMo763 @ Jul 22 2006, 06:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not saying Wally, Marbury, Hassell, Hudson, etc. are equal to what Duncan has/had around him... but they are CAPABLE players... they are players that KG should have been able to take past the first round. I'm not saying he should have won a championship or anything with those guys... but atleast win a playoff series! He couldn't do that! Face it... KG is a great individual player, but the dude is not a winner... he's not a leader... thus he is overrated in those areas.See, you're basically saying the same things as me, but disagreeing with me when I say that he is overrated as a leader because he cannot guide a team. The year they went to the WCF, he wasn't the biggest reason they went there... it was Cassell and Sprewell. They opened things up for KG... they took the responsibility (well, Cassell mainly did) of closing out games on the offensive end... which is something KG has never done consistently. He just doesn't demand the ball down the stretch like he should and close the games either with his scoring or passing. That's been the knock on him his entire career... that and the fact that he's not a winner.</div>Well, you see all of that'd be sensible if those "capable" players have ever EXPERIENCED SUCCESS in the playoffs...seriously, how can you even label them as capable when they've never been anywere in the playoffs in their own respective careers..solid players? Yeah...playoff capable? Maybe Starbury but he hasn't gotten past the 1st round in his whole career yet If you win an MVP the season you get to the WCF..dont you dare say it was mainly because of "Cassell and Sprewell"...KG WON a FRICKIN MVP that season man, don't even try ignoring it...he WON AN MVP, I don't care what you say, but if you win an MVP the season you finally get out of the 1st round, I'm going to give the most credit to the one that wins the "MVP" Award, not the person that helped him do it. Cassell did a whole lot for KG but your just going overboard by saying something like "they were the main reasons"....I DOUBT without KG that they could even get a playoff berth, KG was the most important on the team, KG was the one that mainly brought his team down the stretch to the WCF....Cassell was Robin.
Re: Battle of the 21's lets think for a second, MVP's: Tim 2 (consecutive) KG 1, Finals MVP's: Tim 3 KG 0, All NBA teams: Tim 8, KG 6, All Defensive Teams: Tim 9, KG 6. Oh, one more thing Timmy is just the fifth player in league history to earn All-NBA First Team honors in each of his first eight seasons joining Elgin Baylor (first 10 seasons), Bob Pettit (10), Larry Bird (9) and Oscar Robertson (9). I think that tells it all right there. Timmy for sure.
Re: Battle of the 21's Definatly Tim Duncan, he's a real post player. KG with all his skills never scored as much as he could have...I don't know if Garnett is a real leader...but he's just never had the teammates like Duncan has, not to take anything away from Duncan.
Re: Battle of the 21's Talent: KGOverall player, including every intangible like titles/MVP's/leadership: Tim Duncan, without question
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 22 2006, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well, you see all of that'd be sensible if those "capable" players have ever EXPERIENCED SUCCESS in the playoffs...seriously, how can you even label them as capable when they've never been anywere in the playoffs in their own respective careers..solid players? Yeah...playoff capable? Maybe Starbury but he hasn't gotten past the 1st round in his whole career yet </div>Iverson did it many times... Snow never went to the playoffs himself, neither did McKie, etc. If Kevin Garnett truly is one of the "greatest PF's of all time," then he SHOULD be able to SINGLE-HANDEDLY carry his team out of the first round.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If you win an MVP the season you get to the WCF..dont you dare say it was mainly because of "Cassell and Sprewell"...KG WON a FRICKIN MVP that season man, don't even try ignoring it...he WON AN MVP, I don't care what you say, but if you win an MVP the season you finally get out of the 1st round, I'm going to give the most credit to the one that wins the "MVP" Award, not the person that helped him do it. Cassell did a whole lot for KG but your just going overboard by saying something like "they were the main reasons"....I DOUBT without KG that they could even get a playoff berth, KG was the most important on the team, KG was the one that mainly brought his team down the stretch to the WCF....Cassell was Robin.</div>What you are not understanding is that Cassell and Sprewell ALLOWED KG to win that MVP award. They took the scoring pressure off of him. Cassell took the majority of clutch shots down the stretch of games, especially big games. They allowed KG to concentrate on areas other than scoring. They took so much pressure off of him that it allowed him to do other things on the floor.You are saying it yourself that the one time he had a good supporting cast, he did well, right? Well, then, what was the major difference between that team and the other teams that KG played on? Let me see... oh yeah, it was the supporting cast!Compare his stats from that season to the previous season. He only averaged about 1 more point per game, half a rebound more per game, and his assist numbers dropped by one a game. It's not like he made such a great statistical leap that he won the MVP because of that. He won it because of the Timberwolves' team success... and that brings us right back to the fact that Cassell and Sprewell were the difference in that aspect as well.So... yes, Cassell and Sprewell ALLOWED KG to win that MVP award... they were the reason the Timberwolves did as much damage that season as they did. You said it yourself... and if you deny that, then your entire argument is thrown out the window.
Re: Battle of the 21's Uhh....it was because he was too good in the first place to really raise his numbers. Every superstar, at least one in a good conference, needs help to win a championship. I'm not sure but did Michael Jordan do anything at first before Pippen? What if he NEVER had Pippen? And didn't KG have the same coach that took the best team in the league this year and ruined them in the playoffs....
Re: Battle of the 21's IMO, KG still hasn't proven anything come playoff time. The team he had with Cassell and Sprewell was good enough to win a championship, and HE should have been the leader, yet he wasn't. Both Spree and Sam led that team, he was the superstar player, and gave team energy (both of which he does on every single T-Wolves team), but didn't lead. That is what seperates him from AI, Kobe, Wade, and hell, even T-Mac, despite T-Mac never getting out of 1st round.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigMo763 @ Jul 23 2006, 07:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Iverson did it many times... Snow never went to the playoffs himself, neither did McKie, etc. If Kevin Garnett truly is one of the "greatest PF's of all time," then he SHOULD be able to SINGLE-HANDEDLY carry his team out of the first round.What you are not understanding is that Cassell and Sprewell ALLOWED KG to win that MVP award. They took the scoring pressure off of him. Cassell took the majority of clutch shots down the stretch of games, especially big games. They allowed KG to concentrate on areas other than scoring. They took so much pressure off of him that it allowed him to do other things on the floor.You are saying it yourself that the one time he had a good supporting cast, he did well, right? Well, then, what was the major difference between that team and the other teams that KG played on? Let me see... oh yeah, it was the supporting cast!Compare his stats from that season to the previous season. He only averaged about 1 more point per game, half a rebound more per game, and his assist numbers dropped by one a game. It's not like he made such a great statistical leap that he won the MVP because of that. He won it because of the Timberwolves' team success... and that brings us right back to the fact that Cassell and Sprewell were the difference in that aspect as well.So... yes, Cassell and Sprewell ALLOWED KG to win that MVP award... they were the reason the Timberwolves did as much damage that season as they did. You said it yourself... and if you deny that, then your entire argument is thrown out the window.</div>Iverson did it because Iverson is god ...and plus one of a billion times do you see someone do that..the GOAT of the game couldnt even do it. Yeah..that's what good teammates are supposed to DO bro, the Wolves big success was partly because of his teammates but also KG is a huge part man...they were the intitiators...KG was the do'er. And what the hell are you saying here lol? KG played on ONE Team..Well yeah....how many MVP do you see given out to players who are on lottery teams? Like said, the teammates are a HUGE part of his success but ultimately it was all KG..They ENABLED KG to do better and really unleash himself, that's what they did but KG was the one getting the MVP, KG was the one doing the most damage...if it wasnt for KG the Wolves wouldnt even be in the WCF bro..and Im not arguing that Hes better than Duncan..just the fact that saying that he's terrible teamwise is perishable and doesnt work..
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='His Greatness' post='122475' date='Jul 23 2006, 09:50 PM']Yeah..that's what good teammates are supposed to DO bro, the Wolves big success was partly because of his teammates but also KG is a huge part man...they were the intitiators...KG was the do'er. [/quote]Wait, can you please stick to one story. Anyway, now you're saying that their success that season was partly because of his teammates? So then if KG carried that team, then why couldn't he do it before without Cassell and Spree? The fact of the matter remains that they took so much pressure off of KG that it ALLOWED him to do everything else: rebound (which he always does anyway), defend, and score when he wants to. Most of the time when Minnesota NEEDED a basket down the stretch... who did they look to? Cassell... not KG. As Nitro said, KG was NOT the leader of that team... Cassell was the leader. KG simply was the "superstar," and thus he won the MVP that season. I'm saying compare that '03-04 T'Wolves team to the other T'Wolves teams he played on... Wait, so if his teammates (i.e. Cassell and Sprewell) had a huge part in his success, how in the hell is it ultimately KG who did it all? That makes no sense. Yes, KG was the one who went out there and put up 24, 14 and 6 a night, but compare that to previous years and it's not THAT much better. What's the difference? Cassell and Spree... they provided veteran leadership... they provided offensive help... they provided clutch play... If you think that KG would have led that team to the WCF without Cassell and Spree, then you're crazy. Hell, they would've been a 4-8 seed if it weren't for Cassell and Spree. Ultimately, Cassell and Spree were the reasons why the Timberwolves had so much success that season, and they were ultimately the reason why KG was able to go out there and win that MVP award. Don't believe me? Then why hasn't KG been able to reproduce that success without those two (before or after)? OK, and you're just saying the same exact thing I'm saying, but you're disagreeing with me? I'm not saying that KG didn't deserve that MVP award, because quite frankly he did. I'm saying Cassell and Spree ALLOWED KG to go out and do his thing... which is EXACTLY what you said in that bolded statement above.Yes, if it wasn't for KG the Wolves wouldn't be in the WCF that year... but if he didn't have Cassell or Spree, would Minnesota have been in the WCF? If KG REALLY was the driving force behind that team... then why didn't they win the WCF when Cassell was hurt? If KG really is such a great leader, team player and winner, he should have been able to carry that team for atleast one damn series, right? I'm not saying he's a terrible team player... I'm saying he is OVERRATED in terms of leading a team, being a winner, and a clutch player. He has ALWAYS shied away from taking shots down the stretch of games. That's why Cassell was so valuable to that team in 03-04. That has been the knock on KG his whole career.
Re: Battle of the 21's Umm, yeah BigMo, they helped him. That's what happens when you have good teammates and EVERY superstar needs some help to win. That's the only season he had good help and that is when he went far. If you take Duncan's best teammate away from him every season he won then he wouldn't have won anything during his career. Superstars need teammates to help them. Kobe and Shaq had eachother, same with Wade and Shaq. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Kareem and others. Bird had a great team. If you give KG another really good player like those guys have had then he wins a few too.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ArizonaFan @ Jul 23 2006, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Umm, yeah BigMo, they helped him. That's what happens when you have good teammates and EVERY superstar needs some help to win. That's the only season he had good help and that is when he went far. If you take Duncan's best teammate away from him every season he won then he wouldn't have won anything during his career. Superstars need teammates to help them. Kobe and Shaq had eachother, same with Wade and Shaq. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Kareem and others. Bird had a great team. If you give KG another really good player like those guys have had then he wins a few too.</div>I understand that... and I'm not arguing it. I'm saying that he is overrated as a leader. You can't get out of the first round for what, seven straight years? Yes, he was young at first, but still... SEVEN years? Yeah... the guy is really a winner. I'm saying that Cassell and Spree were the reasons KG was able to do his thing and win that MVP award. THEY were the reasons the Wolves went that far... not KG, and you guys are admitting that without realizing it. You keep saying that KG NEEDED good teammates to win, right? So... that's admitting that he COULDN'T win by himself, thus he is not a winner unless he had the right teammates. What happened when he had the right teammates? He won the MVP, and they went to the WCF.What's the common factor on EVERY T'Wolves team since KG came into the league? It's KG!What's the difference between that '03-'04 team and the rest of the T'Wolves teams? Cassell and Spree!It's not that hard to piece together.Want another piece of evidence? Just look at the '04-'05 season. KG's production dropped (barely), Cassell's production dropped, and so did Spree's. Yes, Cassell didn't play in that many games, but hey, if KG was really the biggest reason for Minnesota's success and their run deep into the playoffs the season before, why didn't he reproduce that the following year despite the drop in production from Cassell and Spree?
Re: Battle of the 21's I'm saying that EVERYONE needs teammates to win, just like KG. Switch Duncan and KG's teams around and I guarentee that KG would have won more championships. I'd like to see Duncan try to pass the first round with those teams. I doubt he would.When did the Spurs win that first championship, just wonderin? If it was '99-'00 then the next year when Robinson was gone then Duncan's stats dropped(barely) It's called a coincidence. His stats went down this year too when Ginobli did a little worse. Just a coincidence.
