Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ArizonaFan @ Jul 23 2006, 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm saying that EVERYONE needs teammates to win, just like KG. Switch Duncan and KG's teams around and I guarentee that KG would have won more championships. I'd like to see Duncan try to pass the first round with those teams.</div>Let's not play the "if KG had Duncan's supporting cast, etc., etc." game, because those kinds of things can go on forever. In reality... KG never got out of the first round until he got Cassell and Spree. Coincidence?Look at the '01-02 season... FIVE players averaged double figures in PPG that year (compared to only four in '03-04). KG put up 21 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists a night. Szczerbiak put up 19 points, 5 rebounds and 3 assists a night. Billups put up 12 points, 3 rebounds and 5.5 assists a night. Joe Smith put up 11 points, 6 rebounds and 1 assist a night. Terrell Brandon played in only 32 games, but he put up 12 points, 3 rebounds and 8 assists a night in those games. What happened in the playoffs? They got swept in the first round. So much for KG raising his game after a 50-32 season, right?Let's take a look at the Spurs three championship runs:1998-99: Duncan put up 21 points, 11 rebounds and 2 assists a night, while Robinson added 15 points, 10 rebounds and Sean Elliot added 11 points, 4 rebounds and 2 assists a game. What a great supporting cast! 2002-03: Duncan put up 23 points, 13 rebounds, and 4 assists a game, with Parker adding 15 points, 3 rebounds and five assists a night. Stephen Jackson put in 12 points, 3 rebounds and 3 assists a night, and Malik Rose put up 10, 6 and 1.5 a night. Robinson added a solid 8 points and 8 rebounds a game. Better than what KG had to work with, but similar to what he had in 03-04... why couldn't he win then?2003-04: Duncan put up 20, 11 and 4 a night. Parker put up 16, 4 and 6, with Ginobili adding 16, 4 and 4. What a GREAT supporting cast! Any player who fails to make it out of the first round for SEVEN straight years is not a leader in my eyes. He doesn't raise his level of play in the post season... The fact remains that he only got out of the first round when he had Cassell and Sprewell... so it is common sense that they played a HUGE part in that success, and were more valuable to KG than KG was to them.I'm not saying KG sucks, because he is one of my favorite players, and he is arguably the most versatile player in history... but he is no leader, and he is no winner.
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='BigMo763' post='122533' date='Jul 23 2006, 10:43 PM']Wait, can you please stick to one story. Anyway, now you're saying that their success that season was partly because of his teammates? So then if KG carried that team, then why couldn't he do it before without Cassell and Spree? The fact of the matter remains that they took so much pressure off of KG that it ALLOWED him to do everything else: rebound (which he always does anyway), defend, and score when he wants to. Most of the time when Minnesota NEEDED a basket down the stretch... who did they look to? Cassell... not KG. As Nitro said, KG was NOT the leader of that team... Cassell was the leader. KG simply was the "superstar," and thus he won the MVP that season.[/quote]GO READ what I said before putting words in my mouth, I didn't say they had no part in it because only fools would say such a thing. KG CARRIES his squad right now, they MAY NOT BE SUCCESSFUL, but any dope with NBA Knowledge can say easily that KG carries his team, HES the reason there even IN the playoff hunt, KG is the reason the Wolves aren't a 0-82 team. And Cassell and Sprewell enabled Garnett to defend? And to score? Wait, I thought Cassell and Sprewell didn't really help him statistically: Get outta here, telling ME to stick to one story Oh and to say Garnett isn't a leader is f'n absurd, sure Cassell was the clutch player and the Point Guard but Sam was there for ONE SEASON, he didnt lead them emotionally NOR on the court neither. I said KG was the main reason that KG got the MVP, and there's a line between SUCCESS and INDIVIDUAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS, pal. There was no statistical boost because what Cassell and Sprewell REALLY DID was enable KG to do better and help them win, he never had any legitimate teammates before that were ACTUALLY WINNERS. The MVP was awarded to KG because the Wolves were arguably the best team and he was arguably the best player that season, to win one you need another thing which is exactly what came to KG. And you don't really get it do you, they MAY have enabled KG to finally be able to win for the team but KG was doing the work. When a player wins an MVP...who get's the most credit? The COACH who planned the gameplay and how the players would play, OR the PLAYER who DID the work on the court? The MVP isn't awarded to the coach....he wasn't able to because BEFORE THEM HE NEVER HAD ANY LEGITIMATE PLAYOFF Players, or PLAYERS in general Again, they masterminded everything for him but KG was the one doing the damage on the court and beating teams to a pulp, not Cassell and Sprewell, that's why HE won the MVP, not Sam or Latrell. Because ultimately the team worked as a SQUAD, its like a puzzle, when one piece is missing its not complete, and most importantly Cassell was the one running the offense because he's the point, they had frickin Hoiberg starting at the 1...who the hell is gonna win against a high caliber team when you have noone on your team and especially a scrub for a PG...And I never argued KG as a winner because clearly he's not, I'm ARGUING that the dude IS a leader and not a terrible team player, he's had a legitimate squad for ONE YEAR and they went to the WCF...in there ONE YEAR together. The DAMN GOAT OF THE GAME couldn't even bring his team past the 1st round by himself and he was arguably one of the best winners of all time, so don't even expect Garnett to have better expectationns. He's not overrated at all because he's not known for it lmao...so don't say he's OVERRATED when he's not even known for any of those characteristics at all. Aside from the fact that he doesnt really hit clutch shots, you can't really find a negative in his career that's HIS fault.Oh and for the record, KG has hit 5 game winners these past 3 season, Cassell: 0
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='His Greatness' post='122662' date='Jul 24 2006, 02:13 AM']GO READ what I said before putting words in my mouth, I didn't say they had no part in it because only fools would say such a thing. [/quote]And you need to go read my post and tell me where I said that you stated "they had no part in it." Before telling others to read their own posts, why don't you actually read them first? OK, when did I say he doesn't carry his team right now? Never... I said he can't SINGLE-HANDEDLY CARRY HIS TEAM PAST THE FIRST ROUND OF THE PLAYOFFS. Again... read before you respond. First of all, Cassell was there for TWO seasons, not just one. Also, if you don't think Cassell was the veteran leader in that lockerroom, then you are "f'n absurd." Anybody who followed that team knows that Cassell was the leader in the locker room, and he was the general on the floor. KG might have been their "emotional" leader (and Cassell wasn't far behind in that category), but Cassell was the one who directed everybody on the floor... he was the one who was the leader in the locker room. Don't believe me? Well, if you actually followed the team that season, you would have read the numerous times when KG even admitted that Cassell was the leader of that team, whereas KG was just their superstar player. Once again, read before you respond. I said that KG by all means deserved that award. But what YOU are FAILING to COMPREHEND is that I have been saying all along that CASSELL AND SPREE <u>ENABLED</u> KG TO GO OUT THERE AND DO THE THINGS HE DID. You also agree with me in that aspect, as evident by the bolded statement in the preceding quote. Again, you have been "disagreeing" with me all along, but every reason you have given basically supports my argument. Yes, he might not have had capable teammates in previous years (I dispute that), and he finally got out of the first round with Cassell and Spree, correct? Then it is logical to go ahead and say that Cassell and Sprewell were the BIGGEST reasons for KG's success that season, and thus the team's success. Once again... you're essentially saying the same thing I am saying: Cassell and Spree enabled KG to become the MVP that year. Yes, KG did the work, but who spread the defense and allowed him to do that? Yep... you guessed it. It's just like this year's Heat team. Shaq attracts so much attention that allows Wade to attack the rim without being double and triple teamed all the time... then you have the shooters on the outside (well, the people that are supposed to be shooters anyway), and the game is so much easier for Wade and everybody else. That's the same way the Spurs work... Duncan opens up so many opportunities for everybody else. Cassell and Spree spread the floor (along with Wally when he was playing, and Hassell) so that KG wasn't double and triple teamed all the time. If teams doubled (or tripled) KG, Cassell and Spree made them pay with outside jumpers. Anybody who has any NBA knowledge could see that... but apparently, you didn't. And the GOAT only failed to do it two or three times before he was paired with Pippen... Garnett failed to get out of the first round SEVEN times. Their is a HUGE difference. Not to mention that Jordan only had three years of NBA experience... and Garnett with 7 years still couldn't get out of the first round? Please... that's a horrible comparison. Once again, please read before you respond. I'm not saying he is overrated as a player... I'm saying he is overrated as a leader.OK, he's not "known for those characteristics at all?" And what characteristics might you be speaking of? Leadership? Well, then you're argument is thrown out the window. Winning? Again... he's not a winner. Clutch play? Again... he just doesn't demand the ball down the stretch of games like a SUPERSTAR is supposed to do.So there is nothing negative in his career that is HIS fault? Yeah... right. I guess all those years he was good enough to take his "incapable" teammates to the playoffs with 45-50 win seasons, but he couldn't do it to win 3 (or 4) more games to advance past the first round? Face it... KG NEVER raised his play during the playoffs aside from the '03-04 season. It's not his fault that he couldn't get past the first round? It's not his fault that he had "incapable" players around him? Well, remember, great players are supposed to make their teammates better... I guess KG missed the boat on that one too, right? Again, KG is one of my favorite players, and he is arguably the most versatile player to ever play the game, but he is not a good leader... he is not a winner... and he just can't put a team on his back and take them out of the first round. If he can take a team out of the first round without Cassell and Spree... I will give him his props, but that has yet to be seen.
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='BigMo763' post='122699' date='Jul 24 2006, 04:38 AM']And you need to go read my post and tell me where I said that you stated "they had no part in it." Before telling others to read their own posts, why don't you actually read them first?[/quote]Well when you said: That alone implied that you think that I MEANT he had no part in it, note the emphasis put on the "partly"...then saying for me to stick to one story, it implied that BEFORE I said they had no part in it...It wasn't a direct statement, but that was what you ever implying. AND AGAIN, like said, I said NOONE (again BESIDES AI), has "single handledly" EVER brought their team past the semis...you name me AT LEAST 10 players who HAVE brung their team PAST the 1st round with absolutely noone reliable on their roster, THEN I will bow down and just accept a loss. First of all, Sam was playing there for ONE SEASON, KG actually played with that roster and WAS WITH THE Wolve's organizaiton his WHOLE CAREER, Not Cassell NOR Sprewell are going to even jump in and take his spot as leader out of no where in one season. For god's sake, he leads them on the floor BECAUASE HE'S THE POINT GUARD..duh, that's what the job of a 1 Guard is, Run the offense, but defensively none other than Garnett led that squad. I don't remember anything with KG saying that at all and if he was he was probably referring to the offense or something. Give me a source... 1988, Scottie came to the Bulls after getting drafted...the Bulls have been stuck in the 1st round for three straight years with MJ..that year MJ would go on to win the MVP Award and the DPOY but they FINALLY advanced out of the 1st Round...is it logical to say something moronic like SCOTTIE was the main reason for MJ's success when HIS numbers decreased? Is it LOGICAL to say that Scottie is the main reason for the Bull's success when MICHAEL was the one that grabbed the MVP? F*ck no. Latrell and Sam MAY have brought the Wolves over the hump, but they in no shape or form are "the main reason". Seriously, an MVP beats out anything you can throw at me by a mile. Spread the defense? Aside from a 1 Point increased in PPG, KG had virtually the same season before statistically..he may have played better a tiny bit individually but the Latrell and Sam contributed more to the TEAM than to KG. KG just finally had more lenient teammates and overall made the team better and he worked with better players and utltimately it lead to a better record. One Amazing Player=Good 1 Amazing Player+2 Great Players=Even better. No sh*t, but the comparison works if your going to use Sprewell+Cassell as the Pippen factor, KG had DIFFERENT Second mans just about every other year and NONE of them were even great besides the duo of Sam and Latrell. Would MJ be able to bring his team past the 1st round with the sh*t KG had to put up with? I doubt it. Would KG be able to bring his team past the 1st round with the teammates MJ was eventually gifted with? I HIGHLY concieve it. Would KG be able to bring his team past the 1st round with ANY of the other "contenders" teammates? I HIGHLY conceive...and that's all what sets KG apart from everyone else with a ring or consistent playoff success. No sh*t, your comprehension off again? I said he's not overrated FOR THOSE SPECIFIC TRAITS because he's not KNOWN for them Lmao, you just listed all the characteristics which I just declined that he didn't possess....by the way, being clutch doesn't make you a superstar neither, Karl Malone is arguably the greatest PF ever and he consistently choked in the clutch, he wasn't a leader neither, nor is he known for "winning" (no championship)...he ALSO never brought his team past the semis until playing with the most pure PG Of all time and (probably the 2nd best ever) in John Stockton who FAR surpasses Latrell and Cassell combined. KG is known for his versatility, his defense, his consistency and his GAME in general, anyone with NBA Knowledge would know that..and if you even had to ask me what he's "known for"..then clearly you dont have any. Doesn't raise his play? He plays virtually the at THE SAME LEVEL IN THE POST SEASON as when he's in the Regular Season, especially against better teams. Truth is, his teammates are subpar through the whole season and he can't bring his team to .500 alone and that carries on to the playoffs. And yeah, not his fault that he didn't have any playoff capable players, its the Timberwolves fault. And noone can turn scrubs into superstars, there either SUPERSTARS or BAD PLAYERS. Thin line, and by your logic Barkley is a terrible player because he never "made his players" to the best they can be and ended up never wining a championship. The thing is, your either GIFTED with great teammates or your not, which KG wasnt...and for the record, Brandon had his best season in Minnesota, Wally had an allstar in Minnesota but isn't doing nearly as good as in Boston, Troy Hudson had his best season in Minnesota, Rasho had his best season in Minnesota, Latrell has seen the most success in his career in his two seasons in Minnesota than when playing 11 seasons with other teams, and ALL these players were key players in just about every season with KG.. He IS a good leader, He's leading his team right now and what he's doing for his team is paramount, they may not be a WINNING TEAM but he IS a good leader and to say otherwise is downright ridiculous. He sure as hell is a good leader but a good leader with bad teammates dont match pal.
Re: Battle of the 21's His Greatness- You keep saying he is a good leader, but he is not. He keeps his team average, but that's about it. He's a superstar player, but never shows up in crunch time, and has never propelled team out of 1st round with his leadership (Sam and Spree did that for him, like Sam and Cuttino did it for Brand). Every championship and series the Spurs have won has been due to Duncan's leadership and better play than during regular season.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 24 2006, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>His Greatness- You keep saying he is a good leader, but he is not. He keeps his team average, but that's about it. He's a superstar player, but never shows up in crunch time, and has never propelled team out of 1st round with his leadership (Sam and Spree did that for him, like Sam and Cuttino did it for Brand). Every championship and series the Spurs have won has been due to Duncan's leadership and better play than during regular season.</div>Duncan is a better leader, no doubt, but you can't turn your "average" teammates into "superstars" right on out, noone can bro. He's a superstar player cursed with a terrible teammates, those like Tim Duncan are more fortunate Yeah, he doesn't show up in clutch but neither did Malone, who was arguably the greatest PF ever, Malone wasn't much of a leader neither. Leadership is leadership, but putting leadership INTO a zone with Wining is a no-no, especially if you have teammates like Garnett does. Give him 1 or 2 seasons with Foye and we'll see REALLY how his leadership pans out.
Re: Battle of the 21's He's had very good teammates in the past. Hell, for awhile Wally was averaging 20PPG or around that area, and players like Troy Hudson were solid. With a player the magnitude of KG, he should have been out of the 1st round. If Paul Pierce did it with a 20PPG guy in Walker, if AI did it with a bunch of defensive player, if T-Mac pushed #1 seeded Pistons to 7 games with a team crappier than KG, if Kobe did the same thing, if LeBron did it, if Wade did it in his rookie season, etc....then KG should have done it once in over 10 years.Yes, Duncan was blessed with a great franchise, but no doubt he molded Parker and Ginobli into superstars. Garnett didn't do that with Spree and Sam. And I think with 3 'chips, 3 finals MVP's, 2 regular season MVP's, consistently the top PF in the game, Duncan has become the greatest PF the game has ever seen.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 24 2006, 09:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He's had very good teammates in the past. Hell, for awhile Wally was averaging 20PPG or around that area, and players like Troy Hudson were solid. With a player the magnitude of KG, he should have been out of the 1st round. If Paul Pierce did it with a 20PPG guy in Walker, if AI did it with a bunch of defensive player, if T-Mac pushed #1 seeded Pistons to 7 games with a team crappier than KG, if Kobe did the same thing, if LeBron did it, if Wade did it in his rookie season, etc....then KG should have done it once in over 10 years.Yes, Duncan was blessed with a great franchise, but no doubt he molded Parker and Ginobli into superstars. Garnett didn't do that with Spree and Sam. And I think with 3 'chips, 3 finals MVP's, 2 regular season MVP's, consistently the top PF in the game, Duncan has become the greatest PF the game has ever seen.</div>He's had very good teammates in the past ON PAPER, Marbury, Billups, Wally, etc, but NONE of them have ever even been near a playoff themself, Hudson was good but KG actually really played one full season with him starting and that's the season where they would get eliminated by a much better Lakers team wiith MUCH more talent, and like said, Wally sucks, the dude is a pure shooter and that's really it, and he's nowhere up to par with guys like Peja, Kyle, etc. (at shooting), sure Wally provided some shooting but he didn't support in any other area whatsoever and coudlnt help KG much with his inability to pass and do other things, plus the dude on defense isn't really that good. He's a good shooter that spreads the defense out more, but you can't even call him a guy you can win a championship with, Pierce did it with a versatile Walker who can do alot of things and consistently led the league in 3PTers, would KG be better off with Walker than Wally? Of course. Tracy has never gotten out of the 1st round neither in his whole career, and although Kobe HAS gotten past the 1st round before you can't say he's done it by himself, so far without Shaq, no Semis, no WCF's, no rings, so don't put him in that situation. James pretty much did it but he did with a pretty good bigman that can beat out Wally, Terrell or any other teammate IMO...besides Starbury who ALSO has never been past the 1st round his whole career. And Dwyane didnt do it, in his rookie season he was the third scoring option...THIRD, plus that squad had EJ and Lamar leading the pack...the only exception I can give it to would be Iverson, and maybe LeBron..Well it would be kind of hard to model Cassell and Sprewell when they were ALREADY VETS with a polished game....training a puppy is easily but changing the tendecies of an adult dog isn't.
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='His Greatness' post='123412' date='Jul 24 2006, 10:26 PM']He's had very good teammates in the past ON PAPER, Marbury, Billups, Wally, etc, but NONE of them have ever even been near a playoff themself, Hudson was good but KG actually really played one full season with him starting and that's the season where they would get eliminated by a much better Lakers team wiith MUCH more talent,[/quote]He still had some good teams, and if KG was a very good leader and not just a superstar big man, he could have gotten them out of the 1st round in at least one of those 10+ years. He also had Ricky this year, and still nada (yes, by the time he arrived they had no chance, but they weren't any better). You c n't expect Wally to be a superstar, but he is a VERY solid 2nd option, and was an outside shooter to compliment KG's inside presence. Pierce got to ECF and out of 1st round more than once with Walker, so while Walker may be better than Wally, it doesn't show much that pierce got so far more than once while KG never got anywhere in 10+ years. T-Mac has shown more in the playoffs than KG ever has. 30/7/6 last year vs Mavs in playoffs (along with hitting GW). Not to mention when they pushed #1 seeded Pistons to 7 games. And Kobe did more this past year vs Suns in terms of leadership than KG ever did in playoffs. GW, morphing himself into a new role, and also ahving a 40pt game and almost willing team to victory if it wasn't for a bad Kwame Brown play which left Tim Thomas an open three. Z was never out of 1st round either, and Hughes didn't show up. Bron did what KG never did, and did it in quite a fashion. In playoffs Wade was THE man. Lamar never got into playoffs before, and Jones wasn't amazing. Wade hit GW shots, and totally dominated and led team to a near upset over #1 seeded Pacers in second round. You bet Shaq saw that in wade before joining. Not to mention Wade's heat swept Wizards when Shaq was out for 3 games, and single handedly beat Mavs this year in the Finals while Shaq was getting 13PPG. That is why KG doesn't get the same benefit TD does, Sam and Spree were already all stars before joining Wolves. TDmodeled Parker and Ginobli into who they are, which shows his leadership even more. You always hear people say how great of a player KG is and he has so much heart, but never that he is a great leader. He couldn't do it with Steph, Billups, or Wally (who he couldn't get a good relationship going with).
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='Nitro1118' post='123438' date='Jul 24 2006, 09:58 PM']He still had some good teams, and if KG was a very good leader and not just a superstar big man, he could have gotten them out of the 1st round in at least one of those 10+ years. He also had Ricky this year, and still nada (yes, by the time he arrived they had no chance, but they weren't any better).[/quote]Good teams? Would you stop saying that? He's never had a GOOD TEAM really until one season where he played with Cassell and Sprewell who arent even up to par and on the level as other championship contenders in the L. A leader is a leader, but winning is another thing. KG IS a leader, not a winner (which isnt eternally his fault). And how many championships have been won with PURE SHOOTERS alone? He was a solid 2nd option but I'd rather have Wally World as my third option since all the kid can pretty much do is shoot. He's been out of the 1st round twice with Walker and ONLY with Antoine, can you get that? Walker > Sczerzbiak..oh and not to mention Antoine has actually PLAYED WITH CONSISTENT second man, every year on out KG has had to play with just about a differnt sidekick. Sure that's a great performance but is it better than KG bucketing 32 and grabbing 21 in the playoffs practically winning the game for them? And yeah he pused them to the last game but who cares? Dont bring McGrady into the argument when HE HIMSELF has never been past the 1st Round, period, I dont care how welll he did. KG with "above average" teammates turned the Timberwolves into the best team in the league (regular season anyways..). That's why I said "maybe LeBron"..but honestly, who do you think is better, Zydrunas or Wally, Hudson, Brandon and Billups (when he sucked). Still your missing the fact that KG HAS been to the WCFs...WCF+Good Teammates > Semis+Average Teammates...even as much as I like Bron.. But did he BRING the Heat there? NO sir, he was the THIRD option all through the season and didn't start taking over "as the man" until the Semis came around which they would end up losing anyways. And Shaq was gone for 2 games which they won together (the first two), and then Dwyane would end up taking over..Dwyane undoubtedly has achieved more in the playoffs in his 3 years than KG's 11 though, I give him that.. Duncan started out playing with Future HOFer David Robinson which ultimately helped his game out alot...I've also already acknowledged the fact that Duncan was a better leader bro so there's no need for me to dispute that...and Starbury is a cancerous player, Billups sucked in Minnesota and sucked everywhere else until he got to Detroit, and Wally..well I already acknowledged him..
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='His Greatness' post='122711' date='Jul 24 2006, 06:44 AM']Well when you said:That alone implied that you think that I MEANT he had no part in it, note the emphasis put on the "partly"...then saying for me to stick to one story, it implied that BEFORE I said they had no part in it...It wasn't a direct statement, but that was what you ever implying. [/quote]Um, no, that is not what I was implying. I was implying that before you stated and implied that Cassell and Sprewell played a HUGE part in the T'Wolves success that year. Don't deny that, because later on in that same post you say it again. Once again, please read before you respond. First of all, look at the rosters KG has played with... look at the teams he led to 50-32 records or what not, and tell me he has NEVER had reliable players around him. Please... he has had enough players around him to ATLEAST get out of the first round. Wally is capable... Stephon back in those days was capable (putting up 17 and 8 a night), so was Chauncey Billups although he was fairly young, as was Joe Smith, etc. KG HAS HAD CAPABLE TEAMMATES. I agree that he hasn't had the same caliber teammates as Duncan has had... but KG has had enough help around him to atleast get out of the first round. If KG can lead his teams to the playoffs with those "incapable" teammates, why can't he carry those "incapable" teammates for three more victories and get out of the first round? Please... I would LOVE to hear the answer to that question. Are you 100% sure Sam played there for only one season? Well, I guess the official statistics on NBA.com are lying, right? http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sam_cassell/index.html Um, if you even followed the '03-04 team at all, you could see that Cassell was the leader. That was KG's team, and KG was the best player, but Cassell was the leader. Who was the one providing guidance to players on that squad, including KG? It was Cassell! Cassell took players aside and helped them out, gave them pointers, and he did that to KG as well! Please, before you make boneheaded statements about KG being the leader of that team, please actually follow that team the entire year. ANYBODY could see that Cassell was their leader. THAT WAS THE REASON HE WAS BROUGHT IN, otherwise what else did he offer that their other point guards didn't? CASSELL PROVIDED VETERAN LEADERSHIP. You have either be blind not to see that, or you just didn't follow Minnesota that season. Um... in case you didn't notice... Scottie WAS the reason Michael had that much success in his career. Do you think Michael would have won six championships without Scottie, or that Scottie would have won six championships without Michael? Hell no... Micheal probably would have won atleast one or two titles, but defintiely not six without Scottie. So, before you start typing and trying to prove a point with that argument, look at it again and you'll realize two things: 1) how idiotic and contradictory your argument sounds, and 2) that you proved my point. Thank you for proving my point. Re-read that quote and you'll realize that you once again proved my point while trying to argue another. So, Wally Szczerbiak wasn't his second option for five straight years (not sure of the exact figure at the moment)? Hm... again, please look things up before just saying random sh*t. Yes, I do believe MJ would have taken the "crap" KG had around him out of the first round. Would KG have won with what MJ had around him? Probably... but that is what separates KG from other superstar players. KG doesn't raise the play of the players around him, whereas other superstars do. That's the difference between KG and guys like AI, LeBron, Kobe, DWade, Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, etc. And don't even try to argue against it, because your entire argument has been based on your belief that KG never had any good teammates around him. Well, if he truly is a superstar, he should make his teammates better, shouldn't he? Ouch... Do you realize how stupid you sound trying to say I'm an idiot with that statement? If you believe he is not known for those traits, then why in the hell are you arguing with me when I say he is overrated in those areas? If you believe he isn't known or given credit for those traits, then I really don't see what you're arguing when my entire argument is based on my opinion that he is given too much credit in those areas. Once again... you're the one with the comprehension problem, not me! :happy0144: Yes, I have absolutely NO NBA knowledge, when many posters here would say I'm one of the smartest posters here. Good one! Second, I never asked you what KG is known for... I asked you what traits you felt he "wasn't known for." Again... that comprehension problem of yours is creeping up.Third, if you truly are so superior to me in "NBA knowledge," then you would have known that Malone entered the league one year AFTER Stockton did, and thus he never played without Stockton until he signed with the Lakers in '03-04. Ouch... I guess that NBA knowledge of yours didn't help you out there either buddy. :happy0144: Fourth, I have been saying all along that KG is better than Duncan if you're comparing head to head skill... but if you take into account all the winning and intangibles, then Duncan wins hands down (which you agree with). So... if you didn't realize that despite me saying it over and over again, who is the one with the reading and comprehension problems? Not me... Holy sh*t! I should just stop debating with you after reading that bolded statement! You're denying the fact that he doesn't raise his play in the playoffs, but then you go ahead and say that he plays at the same level in the post season that he did in the regular season?! :HAHAHA: Holy sh*t! In case that little hamster in your head took a break, if somebody plays at the same level in the playoffs as they did in the regular season... guess what? THEY DIDN'T RAISE THEIR LEVEL OF PLAY! :HAHAHA: Good one, genius. Also, last time I checked, KG did take his team above .500 a few times, buddy. Go look it up. Third, my logic is that KG doesn't make his teammates better nor is he a good leader because he has never won a first round series without Cassell and Sprewell. According to that logic, Barkley DID make his teammates better, and was a leader. Why? Oh, let's see... I guess that trip to the NBA Finals must of slipped your mind, right?Another thing, you're just becoming stupider and stupider by the minute, because anybody with a brain can see how idiotic your argument is sounding, and that you're just throwing sh*t out there without thinking. You're arguing that KG had bad teammates, but then you go ahead and tell me that Wally was an all-star, etc., etc., and then you expect me to believe you when you say KG never had anything good to work with? :HAHAHA: Wow... I guess you probably failed every persuasive paper you're ever had to write, correct? Excuse me, "pal," but weren't you the one who just stated that KG is not known for his leadership? So then how is he a good leader? The fact is that he isn't a good leader! He's a superstar player, but he is not a good LEADER! I never knew that leading your team to a bad record makes you a good leader!I honestly feel like I'm debating with five-year-old retard here. Seriously, my dog could formulate and present his argument better than you are! I mean, half of the sh*t you are saying doesn't make logical sense, and the other half just supports my argument! Jeez... save yourself and just quit now before you are added to the "BigMo made me look like an idiotic retard" list. Oh wait, it's too late...
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='His Greatness' post='123487' date='Jul 24 2006, 11:34 PM']Good teams? Would you stop saying that? He's never had a GOOD TEAM really until one season where he played with Cassell and Sprewell who arent even up to par and on the level as other championship contenders in the L. A leader is a leader, but winning is another thing. KG IS a leader, not a winner (which isnt eternally his fault). [/quote]Every year KG made the playoffs he's had a GOOD team.Not a great team filled with all stars, but a solid 2nd option who is better than Kobe had this year or AI has had many years, and solid role players like Hudson. In order to be a GOOD leader, you have to lead your team somewhere. Except for first round knockouts for over a decade, he hasn't led team anywhere. Say what? The whole team wasn't pure shooters. Wally is a pure shooter, but considering how much attention KG recieves, he got open shots, and knocked them down. That is a solid 2nd option. Yes, and Antoine's numbers, in terms of PPG, were similar to Wally's. KG had Wally for quite a few years, and role players who were decent enough to where the superstar should get team out of 1st round at least once in a decade. He AVERAGED 30/7/6, KG had that one good game. As a leader without above average teammates (save last year, but they brought a Mavs team that was ON FIRE with Avery Johnson as coach to 7 games). And KG's teammates weren't just above average, they were fantastic. I'd take Sam, Spree, Wally, and that T-Wolves team over the Spurs and Parker/Ginobli/Finley. Billups didn't just wake up one morning and become good and finals MVP-caliber, he was put into a team with great leadership that showed him to thrive. KG obviously couldn't give that kind of leadership (same with Starbury, Ricky hasn't gotten any better, and KG and his 2nd option Wally couldn't get along). And KG didn't just have "good" teammates. Spree brought Knicks to finals in 1999, Sam has 2 rings and every team he goes to becomes gold (look how good Clips were this year, 1 game from WCF). He had Wally, a fantastic shooter, and other very good role and bench players. KG wasn't the leader of that team, he was the best, but not the leader. He didn't bring them there, but he was the emotional leader in both rounds of playoffs and physically played amazingly. And Shaq was out 3 games in the Washington series, not 2. Yes, it did help his game and molded him into becoming a leader, your point?Marbury isn't cancerous. Hell he almost brought Suns that one year to a near upset against SA in playoffs. KG, being a "leader" should have been the ying to his yang, and been the one to get things together and get past 1st round.
Re: Battle of the 21's Before I even begin to mutilate this post let me foremost say the majority of your whole reply were ignorant baiting tactics.[quote name='BigMo763' post='123491' date='Jul 24 2006, 10:42 PM']Um, no, that is not what I was implying. I was implying that before you stated and implied that Cassell and Sprewell played a HUGE part in the T'Wolves success that year. Don't deny that, because later on in that same post you say it again. Once again, please read before you respond.[/quote]Hey dullard, before you even put things in my mouth like that, go back and find one post of mine in this f*cking thread where I even said LET ALONE implied anything about them "being a huge part", even so, don't take PARTLY and HUGE out of context, and here's something to "refresh" your memory since it seems as if you severly suffered traumatic amnesia before replying: Care to continue, bozo? Oh, we'll let's recollect, shall we? <u>Seasons KG led his team to over 50 wins:</u> 2004, 2003, 2002, 2000. Well the fact that he can lead so many inadequate teams to 50 win teams in the Western Conference is impressive, but the only LEGIBLE TEAM that was presumed to even make it past the 1st was THE '04 Squad. Why can I say that? Well, 2003-Hudson/Wally, 2002-Billups-Wally, 2000-Brandon/Sealy. Now let me ask you an outright candid direct question, one to one, and DONT let the debate bias your answer neither. HONESTLY, when you think AMAZING Sidekicks, "Average" players, HOW MANY TIMES does Troy Hudson shoot up? How many times does Wally shoot up? How many times does Terrell Brandon and Malik Sealy shoot up in that head of yours? And dont even JUMP at the Billups one because he sucked in Minnesota and nowhere near the Chauncey he is today. All those seasons he had <u>nobodies</u>, SCRUBS, well the only exception would be Wally but how many people even KNEW that he was in the All Star game - how many people even KNEW who Terrell Brandon, Malik Sealy and Troy Hudson are? I would LOVE to hear the answers. Oh and here's a newsflash for you, pal: The playoffs are harder than the regular season, if his teammates can't even pull through don't expect him to carry the entire team through the f*cking playoffs, seriously. Guess I was too quick to type, I forgot to put in for "the full season". Oh, so it was GARNETT'S Team, but CASSELL led the team? And providing guidance and giving pointers is the most generic bullsh** I've ever read on this board, any f*cking veteran player can come in and do it and your acting as if Garnett never "gave his teammates" pointers, as if he "never guided his team"....and for the record Cassell is the DAMN POINT GUARD, he's SUPPOSED to give guidance to his players so they could fit into the offensive scheme he would play in Minnesota, no Point Guard can come into an entirely different team and sit around and do nothing with giving no directions whatsoever. And Cassell isn't a big enough "bonehead" to sit on the sidelines during practice and not talk to his teammates and give pointers so don't even type up that customary bullsh** again when just about every veteran point guard flowing into a new system does the just about the same things. That was Sam's first season in Minnesota, NO PLAYER can come in and consequently take KG's team who's been their his entire career, not Sam, not Steve, not Allen. He WAS? He was PART of it but that's borderline moronic saying he WAS the reason for MJ's success and his amazing career, not to mention the teams that the duo would eventually be put on. And do you think Sammy+Latrell would be even NEAR the WCF's without KG? Hell no, they'd be a damn near lottery team. Do you think Scottie and the Bulls could get all the titles without Michael Jordan? Well maybe...NOPE, NONE. And before I send this off, we WERE on the same page, but it seems like your on a kindergarden book and I'm 10 grades ahead of you...and then to go on to say I was contradictory you must've gone Mexican... If you were reading, I said just about every year, Wally would be the only exception, he ONLY STARTED Full Seasons as KG's second man for TWO YEARS which was 2001 and 2002 (which is when he would go on and become an allstar). Read what I said about SECOND MAN/Sidekicks, and then go look it up before saying "random sh*t". And you HONESTLY believe that Michael Jordan can bring a team that consists of no name teammates to at LEAST a Semi? He couldn't do it with Oakley, I doubt he'd be able to do it with Troy Hudson as his second man . Oh and "raising the level" of your teammates ISN'T equivalent to having "good teammates", Mr. NBA...You CAN make your teammates better but that doesn't make them amazing, Einstein . And to even state something like "KG doesn't raise the play" of his teammates is damned near ridiculous..do you KNOW how many players would DIE to play with KG? Do you KNOW how many players would LOVE the pressure taken off of them because of the level of play KG brings? Do you KNOW how many players did had career years with Garnett? For god's sake, when your playing with a player at HIS caliber ESPECIALLY when your a f*cking big man with the defense he draws and his passing abilities, playing better is almost impossible... Do you realize how stupid you sound trying to say that I'M the idiot with that statement? Let me decipher this for you since your brain must've gone fishing...When your overrated and given too much credit that means your KNOWN for a specific individual feature. I BELIEVE that he isn't known in those areas and you are underrating him, meaning he's "underrated" in your ethic according to me....YOU THINK he's OVERRATED in those areas (which apparently he isn't) which means you think too much credit is given and then he's obviously noted for those certain component...Get it now, pee wee brain? And again, you're the one with the comprehension problem...not me :happy0144: ...it's proven.. 1) Not me2) Don't make me correct you on YOUR OWN post...BigMo in the post before: Tell me BigMo, WHERE in that sentence at all did you even make an indication for me to tell you what he is "not known for"...lmao, at least get your OWN posts corrected if you want to debate.3) Funny how you choose to ignore the fact that Malone was never really a winner, a leader, or a clutch superstar, yet he's renowned as one of the greatest Power Forwards this league has seen, and when I say "play" with someone (no homo), I meant for Stockton to ACTUALLY START, Stockton never really began STARTING and getting legitimate minutes until his 4th season in NBA, he never got FULL time to really achieve anything with Malone until Karl's 3rd season in the NBA, and UNTIL Stockton began playing as the 1 Guard for Utah, Karl never even got out of the 1st Round. 4) I was never comparing head-to-head skills bro At the level KG is playing he doesn't even NEED to increase his play, he's playing at the best level possible for him, I think even YOU can agree with the way he plays in the regular season, what happened to KG being the "most talented" PF in the game individually?I wasn't speaking on a specific season, buddy.Third, according to that logic, Charles has never been to the Finals (nor won one) without Thunder Dan OR Cedric, FURTHERMORE, NONE of those players in that roster had their best year or "got any better" PLAYING with Charles...you can't say the same thing about Garnett. Fourth, like I said AGAIN, making someone "better" doesn't make them "amazing", buddy, and the ONLY NOTABLE THING that goes against the "bad teammates" argument would be Wally getting an allstar, so don't even try to imply that I wholly "contradicted" myself, besides, Wally DOES suck, the kid can shoot and that's it, not to mention NUMEROUS players have already acquired an allstar but aren't really even amazing in reality...AND Sczerbiak is a prime example of a player that played better with KG, I doubt the kid would be able to score the way he did with KG in Boston. You don't need to be "known" to be the uniform of a "certain characteristic", pal. Oh and I consider a player who's been the cornerstone of his team and stuck with the franchise throughtout his ENTIRE career, and to basically carry his team on his back for just about every season...I consider him a good leader. And ONCE AGAIN, Leadership and Winning aren't the same things, and weren't YOU the one that just stated IN THIS POST that KG led his team to over 50 wins several times? And I honestly feel like I'm debating with an 8 Year old moron with English as a second language. Seriously man, I think I've made myself crystal clear here and I hope you'd be able to comprehend this time...and nothing "supported" your argument, we might've been on the same page on a few things, agreeing with a few things but nothing "supported" your argument. And do yourself a favor and just disconnect your computer and the internet for that matter so any more severe humiliation is kicked your direction...oh wait, it's too late ...Btw, love the avatar, I wonder who made it :g:
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 25 2006, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He's had very good teammates in the past. Hell, for awhile Wally was averaging 20PPG or around that area, and players like Troy Hudson were solid. With a player the magnitude of KG, he should have been out of the 1st round. If Paul Pierce did it with a 20PPG guy in Walker, if AI did it with a bunch of defensive player, if T-Mac pushed #1 seeded Pistons to 7 games with a team crappier than KG, if Kobe did the same thing, if LeBron did it, if Wade did it in his rookie season, etc....then KG should have done it once in over 10 years.</div> This is where I disagree. Wally has been the only real consistant good player Kevin Garnett has had. Troy Hudson is one of the worst defensive guards in the NBA and is a streakshooter at best. Other than Wally the Wolves have been a rotating door of averageness and Wally has been the only draft pick in the last handfull of years to stick around and make an impact. I agree that KG is not a great leader and that a lot of it is his fault...but to say he's had very good teammates...no.
Re: Battle of the 21's Where did GOOD teammates hit you man? For god's sake, the only "good" teammate that even COMES TO MIND when you look at KG is Starbury, who he had in his rookie years but still cancerous, and Wally, well who isn't that good. HOW many times does your mind say, "OH, Troy Hudson is awesome, OH TERRELL BRANDON is so good." So KG DOES improve his teammates now? Come on, I was speaking on Wally as his Second man, and he's only played as wholly the sidekick for TWO years bro. In terms of PPG, that doesn't tell the whole story, Walker is MUCH BETTER than Wally and isn't one dimensional like him and you cant even tell from how many Points they earn as a factor to "whos bettter"...seriously man, you wouldn't say Jamison is better than Duncan would you? Bibby better than Billups? Al Harrington better than AK47? Wow..ok? Good for him? It was a great peformance but he played in SEVEN games, not 23, not 16, SEVEN, I wonder how he would do if he had gone longer but HES NEVER BEEN PAST the First Round regardless so dont feed me this about him pushing the team, the point is hes never been past the 1st round, period...and if you want to play the sympathy game I could say just about some of the same things about Garnett too. And are you serious? And that was Garnett's FIRST TIME playing with the pair and the second season a huge piece was out, so they couldn't function normally and get to the WCFs and do what they did, Duncan (as a natural better leader) has had time to develop with the two....and if you can ask who would I take NOW? Ginobili+Parker surpasses Sprewell and Cassell...come on.... I guess playing on a team with veteran Nick Van Exel was bad? Playing with Mighty Mouse was bad? He's played behind several of these veteran point guards and was never that good..and he WOKE up one morning on a gifted Pistons team with an amazing player in just about every position. Hm....A terrible Wolves team with one amazing player or an amazing Pistons team with just about the best defense and one of the best lineups in the L...give me the Pistons for 1, Scott...He had STARBURY in his BEGINNING YEARS when KG HIMSELF was just beginning..how the hell could you ask him to already begin developing players when HIMSELF hasn't began "developing" either? And he had Ricky for like one half of the season, and honestly do you THINK Wally would even become an allstar without Garnett? and Wasnt it you that said yourself that he improved Wally? Bro, do you KNOW how many players did their BEST in their career with KG? Come on..As for Latrell, "leading" a team..nice try pal, he was like the 2nd or 3rd option on that team, it was on a roster with future HOFer Patrick Ewing and Allan Houston (someone with one of the finest shooting this L has seen since Miller..) and Latrell's last 3 seasons as a Knick? Nowhere in the playoffs, and that's when he would eventually take the helm and ALSO when Ewing would go to another team...coincidence with the failure? I dont think so. Its good that Sam has two rings but neither has won them as the man...you can argue that these two are good, and YES they've seen success in the playoffs, but there not anywhere above "good", that's when I draw the line. And funny how you can mention Wally as a fantastic shooter but cant even realize for every good he has at least 3 bads..he's had SOLID role players, yes, but they were all total nobodies, seriously how many people have heard of Troy Hudson? Lmao, you can question his leadership too but for a player to stick to the Wolves like he has and to carry his team through just about every obstacle...THAT's leadership bro, you can question it on how you want since he's never been past much but he possess leadership, and also leading that '04 squad like he did..the dude IS a leader, NOT a winner, dont get it twisted. This whole debate is about bringing your team to the playoffs and PAST the 1st round and such, and Dwyane never even took the helm until the semis so dont say he was the ultimately "leader". And the Washington series was 4 games in a sweep, Shaq was absent Game 3-4 Point: KG never had the benefit Duncan had, he was put on a team where HE was the leader, Duncan got to learn from The Admiral himself. Lol man he IS cancerous, for example, he went to the nets in '99, year before they would make the Playoffs, his whole run with the Nets, nothing, and when he would leave, the year after? NBA Finals..year after that? NBA Finals, again..and Kidd had to work with JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING that Starbury did. Not enough? Team after (the Suns), before he came they were at the Semis, this is with STAT, Matrix and Joe Johnson, when he got there they went to the First Round...once...and that's it...and again, right after he leaves, Two WCF's in a row. The Knicks would be like the only one you can argue, but they've sucked just about this whole century besides the beginning and late 90's when Starbury was elsewhere. And he ALMOST brought the Suns somewhere..but did he? I love these situations that you bring with the "almost", but ALMOST doesnt work. And Garnett WAS a leader, but not even Jordan can see success with what KG worked with.
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='His Greatness' post='123711' date='Jul 25 2006, 01:06 PM']Where did GOOD teammates hit you man? For god's sake, the only "good" teammate that even COMES TO MIND when you look at KG is Starbury, who he had in his rookie years but still cancerous, and Wally, well who isn't that good. HOW many times does your mind say, "OH, Troy Hudson is awesome, OH TERRELL BRANDON is so good."[/quote]He's ALWAYS had solid role players, and a very solid 2nd option in Wally. We are comparing him to TD, one of the greatest PF's of all time, so I expect in a 10 year span for KG to lead at least one of those good teams to the 2nd round. And good doesn't mean being an all star, good as in LeBron's Cavs of last year. May not be upper level talent, but good enough. And you do know from 1999-2005 the T-Wolves never had a season with below 47 wins? Most of them were 50 win seasons? With records like that, it baffles me he couldn't get them out of the 1st round ONCE outsid eof the Sam and Spree year.This past year- Wally (20PPG, only played half year), Ricky (20/5/5, only played half year), Marcus (12/5/3, half year), Mark Blount (10PPG, 5RPG, half year), Troy Hudson (10PPG, 3 APG), Trenton (10/3/3), Rashad (8/2/2), and Marko (8/3/3)....yes, not a great team, but was good enough to get into playoffs. Even with Ricky, a better 2nd option than Wally, should have made them a better team, but he didn't (19-20 when Wally left, 33-49 at season's end). 2004-2005- Had Wally, Spree all year, Sam for 60 games, Trenton, Eddie Griffin, Troy Hudson, etc....that team should have also made playoffs.2002-2003 he had Wally (17PPG), Troy (14PPG), Rasho (12PPG), and solid bench with Anthony Peeler, Kendall Gill, Joe Smith, Marc Jackson, and Gary Trent....more than enough to do well in playoffs. Yes they had to face Lakers, which sucked, but still.2001-2002- Wally (19PPG), Chauncey (13PPG, 6APG), Terrel Brandon (12.5PPG, 8APG), Joe Smith (11PPG), Rasho (9PPG, 7RPG), Anthony Peeler (9PPG), and Gary Trent (8PPG).....MORE than enough to get a fantastic seed in playoffs and win.2000-2001= Terrel Brandon (15PPG, 8APG), Wally (14PPG), Anthony Peeler (11PPG), LaPhonso Ellis (9PPG, 6RPG), Chaincey (9PPG, 4APG), and Felipe Lopez (7PPG, 3RPG).....definately a very solid team around arguably the best player in league, definately enough to past first round. He has been his sidekick since 2001-2002, when he averaged 18PPG. 17PPG next season, etc... I NEVER said he was better than Walker. But considering KG has the inside locked down, the perfect sidekick for him is a great shooter (Wally is always around 50% shooting). Wally gives that to him. The 2 are a near perfect pair. Is Wally the best 2nd option? Hell no. Is he a good 2nd option that many teams would love to have to compliment their big man? You bet. You can't play the sympathy game the same way that you can with T-Mac. T-Mac had one true year where he had a decent team (his best year, 32PPG on great FG %, around 6 RPG and 5 APG), but his 2nd option was traded halfway through the season (Mike Miller). That left his 2nd option as Drew Gooden, and while they pushed #1 seeded Pistons to 7 games (which T-Wolves, who never had to play a #1 seed in the '00's, and were always in 3rd or 4th yet ALWAYS lost). And with the Rockets, like T-Wolves against Lakers in 2002-2003, it was an almost impossible matchup to win (although they did push them to 7 games, T-Mac had amazing performance, hit a GW, so outside of KG's one year out of 1st round, T-Mac has shown me more).Garnett didn't need to develop 2 veteran and proven players like TD had to. And I would take Sam and Spree of 2003-2004 over Parker/Ginobli now. He never sucked on T-Wolves. I showed you above in his last season he was actually damn good, and very comparable to his first season or 2 in Detroit. He started coming into his own with age and experience, like most players do. Of course players have done their best around KG, and that is to be expected when you are playing with a 22-23PPG, 14RPG guy. He didn't make Wally better, but because of the positions they each played, it allowed Wally to flash his brilliance. Both Sam and Latrell will never be the "man", but will always be leaders because of their experience and fantastic play. Sam was an ALL STAR the year he was with KG, and had seasons equal to it statistically when he was with other teams (but wasn't noticed because team wasn't as good as T-Wolves). Latrell was the best player on the Knicks team that went to the 'chip, and has always been in upper teens in scoring, and around 4RPG and 4APG. Both are better than good.Latrell was the FIRST option on that Kick team. Ewing was a solid 15/10, but was on the decline and played only 60 games. Latrelll average same amount of PPG as Allen, but had more RPG and APG.Allen, like Wally, was the shooter, and Latrell was the all around great SG. He was the best player on that team.If you want to be a successful leader, you have to win at least once in over 10 years. He may be a leader, but not a good leader, so I don't understand the point of arguing it. Sam and Latrell are the better leaders. Not better player, but better leaders. That, and their play, is what amde that T-Wolves team so good. Marbury never had a healthy K-Mart, didn't have RJ, didn't have Kerry Kittles (injured), no Todd or Jason Collins, and KVH only played half the season in 2000-2001. When he arrived with Suns, they were MUCH better. The next season, Amare was out msot of the season and they just had bad luck with injuries.With Knicks, when he arrived they were much better and made playoffs. After the first year, they brought in Jamal Crawford, a player I can agree on being cancerous.Once again, I am not fu*king arguing the Steph is a better leader than KG, but he is not cancerous. KG was a leader, and he never got teams farther than Steph ever did. Hell, Steph's Knicks weren't very good, and his first year with Suns was Amare's rookie season. He has never had season after season of solid players built specifically for him to shine like KG has, so it's not fair.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He's ALWAYS had solid role players, and a very solid 2nd option in Wally. We are comparing him to TD, one of the greatest PF's of all time, so I expect in a 10 year span for KG to lead at least one of those good teams to the 2nd round. And good doesn't mean being an all star, good as in LeBron's Cavs of last year. May not be upper level talent, but good enough. And you do know from 1999-2005 the T-Wolves never had a season with below 47 wins? Most of them were 50 win seasons? With records like that, it baffles me he couldn't get them out of the 1st round ONCE outsid eof the Sam and Spree year.This past year- Wally (20PPG, only played half year), Ricky (20/5/5, only played half year), Marcus (12/5/3, half year), Mark Blount (10PPG, 5RPG, half year), Troy Hudson (10PPG, 3 APG), Trenton (10/3/3), Rashad (8/2/2), and Marko (8/3/3)....yes, not a great team, but was good enough to get into playoffs. Even with Ricky, a better 2nd option than Wally, should have made them a better team, but he didn't (19-20 when Wally left, 33-49 at season's end). 2004-2005- Had Wally, Spree all year, Sam for 60 games, Trenton, Eddie Griffin, Troy Hudson, etc....that team should have also made playoffs.2002-2003 he had Wally (17PPG), Troy (14PPG), Rasho (12PPG), and solid bench with Anthony Peeler, Kendall Gill, Joe Smith, Marc Jackson, and Gary Trent....more than enough to do well in playoffs. Yes they had to face Lakers, which sucked, but still.2001-2002- Wally (19PPG), Chauncey (13PPG, 6APG), Terrel Brandon (12.5PPG, 8APG), Joe Smith (11PPG), Rasho (9PPG, 7RPG), Anthony Peeler (9PPG), and Gary Trent (8PPG).....MORE than enough to get a fantastic seed in playoffs and win.2000-2001= Terrel Brandon (15PPG, 8APG), Wally (14PPG), Anthony Peeler (11PPG), LaPhonso Ellis (9PPG, 6RPG), Chaincey (9PPG, 4APG), and Felipe Lopez (7PPG, 3RPG).....definately a very solid team around arguably the best player in league, definately enough to past first round.</div> Yeah...Rasho Nesterovic, Felipe Lopez, LaPhonso Ellis, Anthony Peeler, Gary Trent, Kendall Gill and Eddie Griffin...those are some very good players...unfortunatly you left off Dean Garrett....another stud.
Re: Battle of the 21's They aren't great players, but played well with KG, and many of those teams should ahve gotten out of the first round (every year they were in either 3rd or 4th seed, it is pretty astonishing they couldn't get past first round 1 of those years). And that is just half the decade, the other half, the late 90's, was much of the same.
Re: Battle of the 21's This is SO far past the Duncan comparison that his name only pops up a few times and we're its more of a GARNETT A GOOD LEADER OR NOT thread, but still, none of these teams were "good", they might've been "above average" (like LeBron's) but NEVER good besides the '04 Squad which isn't even as great as other championship contenders. And yes I DID know that but did you know playing in the playoffs is 10x harder than the regular season? ESPECIALLY when KG is in the Western Conference and LeBron had to face the frickin Wizards in the 1st...and dont be ridiculous neither, a BETTER RECORD doesn't necessarily mean a better playoff...The Heat wasn't 1st Seed but look at what happened this season for them..And yeah, ALL those numbers look great but does it prove that KG had great teammates? NUMBERS ALONE dont mean amazing teammates man, sure they looked good on the paper, but you need to take the GAMEPLAY and the other intangibles into hand, for every good they had they had a con, and things like stats don't tell the whole story, I can so EASILY dig up other stats on players to try to make them look like they weren't worthless if I wanted to, too, but I'd rather see what else you have to say before just ending that part of your theory. Well yeah I already acknowledged that..but, once again, for just about EVERY POINT that Wally buckets, he gives up 2 more in the other end, I'd rather have a defensive guy for Garnett than a one dimnesional pure shooter..offense is WAY easier to teach than Defense. And sure the Pure Shooting compliments Garnett but is it what HE SHOULD be working with? Oh and what happened to Garnett not making his teammates better but Wally having his best season with him? For the type of player Wally is (one dimensional shooter with nothing else to give), I'd rather have a Ginobili or a Parker type player..not to mention KG MOLDED Wally into what he is, Garnett MADE Sczerbiak, although he'll never be that good you can't ever say Garnett doesn't make players better. And well, if KG canNOT bring the Wolves out of the playoffs this season, I'll call myself and ***hole and just quit the site. Oh my god man, you shouldn't even elaborate on that anymore, the TMac case was DISMISSED, we're talking about GETTING PAST the 1st and TMac has YET to do that, so don't try to extend any more information in that situation. Are you serious man? THOSE two players were OUT OF THEIR PRIME, still playing well but way out of their age and aren't as good as Ginobili and Parker who are just as good (if not better) and are only on the rise...not to mention Ginobili is probably just as good as Latrell on defense (if not better, and I take the flopping as a huge plus on defense even if its a cheap ass way to play ). Yeah he played "pretty damn" good, averaging 10.9 and 4.4 in Minnesota...gee, if he did any better he can surpass TROY HUDSON! Yeah, that guy was simply AMAZING for the Wolves..Wow this whole paragraph is a total contradiction of your whole theory, players played their best with KG YET he doens't make them better? And well, if a player has better stats with someone, becomes BETTER with someone, guess what? HES PLAYING BETTER WITH THEM. Come on, I know your a smart guy but I think you should even be able to figure out something like this. Oh I hope you aren't implying that Latrell was MORE of a leader than Garnett, he was never the leader werever he was except for maybe a few years in California where the was no leadership or talent there anyways. I can't argue Sam's leadership because everyone knows he has it but he was NO leader in Minnesota like you guys think he is...and right Cassell had his ONLY ALLSTAR playing with KG (AND at 33)..so much for KG not making players better ...and Latrell was NO godamn leader in New York when f*cking PATRICK EWING was there...come on don't say anything ridiculous like that, when Patrick, a guy who has been the damn EPITOME, the REPRESENTATIVE of the Knicks franchise for like the whole 80's to 2000...Latrell was a SIDE DISH, Ewing was the obvious main dish..He was? Is that why Ewing and Allan Houston would take more shots and get more touches? Seriously, EWING was the main option on the team and until he left, the first option was entirely questionable. And would you not call Latrell an "all around SG"? He was never an amazing playmaker or an amazing rebounder though just because he was better than Houston at those certain things.No you don't, Charles Barkley never won a ring in his entire career and for the level he was at with the teams he was on, he never got a ring, and was ALSO never called a winner in his entire career, same with Malone. And yeah, Garnett did win, in 2004 ..it seems like you ignored that entire year in this post because he was playing with Sam and Latrell...and dont call Latrell a better leader neither.. Stephon played with KMart his rookie year with 70 games, I guess him becoming on the All NBA Rookie 1st Team isn't enough, Kittles was never an amazing player neither but Stephon DID get to play with Kittles in the half season in '99 and 2000...I think he was injured in 2001....and oh no! He didn't get to play with Jason Collins or Todd MacCullough, yeah, those guys would've ENTIRELY improved his run in Phoenix...and he DID have RJ, but he didn't start really until the season after, and still this does NOT improve the fact that he's never been past the 1st round neither..And yeah..they were SO much better from a 53-29, 51-31 records to a 36-46, 44-38, 29-53 season records....from one of the best defenses to a moderate defense....yeah, so much better man. Yeah man, they got SOO much better when Stephon only played there half the f*cking season and they'd get sweeped by the Nets in the 1st round anyways...he made them SOO much better when Stephon had to take the role as the main person and when Allan played 20 games they would go 33-49...and when Houston retired in '06 when Stephon entirely had to play as the 1st man they woud be one of the worst teams in the L...I admit, Stephon probably made them a bit better (especially in this year keeping them from like losing all the games), but this guy IS in fact a cancer..never made a damn Semi in his career neither...He DID, once again your ignoring that he DID get to the WCF..and Steph's SECOND year was Stat's rookie season....and oh, so I guess playing with KG HIMSELF is not enough, playing with KMart, KVH, Kittles and RJ isn't enough...playing with Amare, Matrix, and Penny Hardaway isn't enough...seriously, he's had MORE than enough players to get past at LEAST the 1st round man..
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='His Greatness' post='123965' date='Jul 25 2006, 06:40 PM']This is SO far past the Duncan comparison that his name only pops up a few times and we're its more of a GARNETT A GOOD LEADER OR NOT thread, but still, none of these teams were "good", they might've been "above average" (like LeBron's) but NEVER good besides the '04 Squad which isn't even as great as other championship contenders. And yes I DID know that but did you know playing in the playoffs is 10x harder than the regular season? ESPECIALLY when KG is in the Western Conference and LeBron had to face the frickin Wizards in the 1st...and dont be ridiculous neither, a BETTER RECORD doesn't necessarily mean a better playoff...The Heat wasn't 1st Seed but look at what happened this season for them..And yeah, ALL those numbers look great but does it prove that KG had great teammates? NUMBERS ALONE dont mean amazing teammates man, sure they looked good on the paper, but you need to take the GAMEPLAY and the other intangibles into hand, for every good they had they had a con, and things like stats don't tell the whole story, I can so EASILY dig up other stats on players to try to make them look like they weren't worthless if I wanted to, too, but I'd rather see what else you have to say before just ending that part of your theory.[/quote]I consider above average "good". It is either crap, average, good, and great. KG's teams were all good, and since we are comparing him to TD, him never getting past 1st round in over 10 years as the sole leader is terrib;e.I never said he had great teammates. They were good, and good enough to get them into 3rd and 4th seed almost every year, yet they STILL lost in playoff time. Considering KG was the leader of those teams, I put the blame on him (same with T-Mac and his Orlando teams). There is no excuse for that. Umm, bro, Wally has played with KG every year in his career. Garnett takes lots of pressure off people, but doesn't make them better. There is a difference. It's gonna be sad to see you go man, you're a pretty good debater :beerchug: T-Mac still has proven more in his playoff career than KG has as a leader. We are talking about being a leader. KG wasn't the leader of the 2003-2004 T-Wolves. Yes KG has nod for playoff career as a player since he has gotten past first round, but in terms of leadership, KG has shown nothing, while T-Mac has shown a lot more in the near upsets in first rounds. Cassel is consistent with his #'s, always between 17-19PPG, 6-7APG. He was in his prime in Minnesota, even though he was getting old. Spree was out of his prime, but still had 17PPG. Parker, this past year, averaged just under 19PPG, and just under 6APG. Spree, with Minny, was a 17/4/4 guy, while Ginobli this past season averaged 15PPG/3/3. As I said, I'd take Spree and Cassel with Minny over the 2 Spurs player right now. That was when he was younger. In his last seaosn with MInny he had 13PPG and 6APG. That is pretty damn good for a 3rd option and playmaker. Not to mention he has always been a good defender.They aren't any better with KG, they just get more open shots. There is a difference. Making a player better is showing them what to do, leading them, etc... Sam WAS the leader in Minny, you can't really deny that. And Sam had better statistical seasons on other teams. If anything Sam and Spree made KG better, as KG had his best season and won the MVP award. Latrell was in some ways more of a leader than KG due to much more experience, especially in playoffs, the one thing KG had no experience with. I made a mistake with the stats, Ewing was the leader, but Latrell made bigges timpact in playoffs. Latrell took the 2nd most shots on the team, and was ahead of Houston in scoring (less shot attempts, .1 more PPG). And you are hilarious, saying Houston is a better player and all of that, yet you are knocking on Sczerbiak. Houston is even more one dimensional than Wally. He was a damn good shooter in his prime, but that's IT. And his numbers were wayyyy down that year, averaging 16PPG on 41% shooting.Big difference- Barkley and malone got out of 1st round almost every year, and were the team's leaders that brought them to Finals. The one year KG got past 1st round, he was not the main leader. Best player? Yes. The most important leader? No. Wrong, he never played with RJ. RJ's rookie season was Kidd's first season. K-Mart's 1st season was his first coming back from a shattered leg. And Kittles, Todd and Collins were the best role players on the Finals team (1st one). And once again, KVH was injured in Martin's first season, as was Kittle the whole year. While Kidd is FAR FAR FAR better as a PG than Stephon, but averaging 20PPG on 44% shooting, 8APG, 3RPG, and 3 TO's per game is NOT being a cancer. He is not the best PG out there, and definately not the best defender out there, but he is very good. Sort of like a poor man's AI. In 2001-2002, all he had was Marion. Rodney was hurt half the year, Anfernee was a 10PPG guy, and Joe Johnson was only an 8PPG guy. In 2002-2003 they were good as they got that 3rd option, and finally a low post presence, in Amare, and almost won 1st round against Spurs. Allan only played 50 games in Steph's first season (most of his time off was after Steph was traded, and he didn't play in playoffs). KVH only played 50 games, Tim Thomas played only 25 games, Penny wa sonly a 9PPG guy, and Cahrlie Ward, Nazr, and McDyess all played under 35 games. You bet your ass he made them a lot better, with 20PPG, 9.5APG. Him playing with KG balances out because KG couldnt get that team out of 1st round either. I am NOT calling him a great leader, but he is NOT cancer.I am done with this debate. I am gonna probably say you were one of the best challenges I have ever faced on this site in terms of debating, but my opinion hasn't changed: KG may be a leader, but he is not a good leader. If he was a good leader, he would have to have led his team past 1st round once in over a decade. The year he did get past 1st round Sam and Latrell were the emotional leaders, while Sam and KG were floor leaders. We both agree TD is the better leader, far better leader, so we shouldn't even debate this any farther. I call a truce.
