Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='His Greatness' post='123610' date='Jul 25 2006, 02:57 AM']Hey dullard, before you even put things in my mouth like that, go back and find one post of mine in this f*cking thread where I even said LET ALONE implied anything about them "being a huge part", even so, don't take PARTLY and HUGE out of context, and here's something to "refresh" your memory since it seems as if you severly suffered traumatic amnesia before replying:Care to continue, bozo? [/quote]Mr. Bozo, please go re-read your posts and you'll see that you have been implying and stating that Casell and Sprewell have played big parts in KG's success that one year, however then you claim that KG did it by himself... wnat proof? Here you go:[quote name='His Greatness' post='122475' date='Jul 23 2006, 09:50 PM']Well yeah....how many MVP do you see given out to players who are on lottery teams? Like said, the teammates are a HUGE part of his success but ultimately it was all KG..[/quote]Care to continue, bozo? First of all, you still have not answered my question. I asked you that if he was good enough to carry those teams to 50 win seasons and to the playoffs, then why couldn't he carry them to three more games? What was you're "answer"? That the playoffs are harder than the regular season? Yes, that is correct, but then if KG cannot raise his level of play or if he cannot win ONE SERIES IN SEVEN YEARS, then what does that say about him? If he can't make his teammates better for three games in the playoffs in a span of seven years, what kind of LEADER is he? Not a good one. If he cannot pull them aside and motivate them to come through in the playoffs, or atleast do enough to where he can carry them on his back, then does that make him a good leader? Nope... Second, it seems you continue to think I have been saying that I believe KG should have won a title without Sam and Spree... and that is not the case. I have been arguing that KG should have won A SERIES by himself before Sam and Spree came around. Yeah... right, good excuse there buddy. Yes, it was Garnett's team (i.e. he was the best player and everybody played off of him), but Cassell was their leader in the locker room, in practice, on the floor, in the huddle, everywhere. Yes, KG was there emotional leader (and he has been that for every T'Wolves squad he's been on), but as far as leadership goes in the playoffs, that was Cassell and Sprewell. Why do you think Minnesota brought THEM in instead of another PG and SG? Because they had been to the Finals and had been deep into the playoffs... something KG had never done before that season. They provided the leadership in the postseason... they helped everybody raise their games in the playoffs, they told everybody what to expect and how to handle the difficulties in the playoffs... not KG. Why? Because they had been there before... how can KG tell his teammates how to get through all of that when it was HIS FIRST TIME OUT OF THE FIRST ROUND? Any "boneheaded idiotic moron" who followed that Minnesota team both in the regular season and the playoffs would know that Cassell and Spree provided the veteran leadership for that squad. Yes, he WAS the reason for Jordan's magnificent career. No doubt Jordan would have won a ring or two without Pippen, and put up comparable statistics (as I mentioned in my previous post), but would Jordan have won SIX rings WITHOUT Pippen? Nope...Also, in case you didn't read my previous post thoroughly enough, I DID SAY that Pippen would not have won without Jordan. I DID SAY that Cassell and Spree wouldn't have taken that T'Wolves squad to the WCF without KG... but I guess you didn't read that part, right? But, let me ask you this question AGAIN... would KG have led that team to the WCF WITHOUT Sam and Spree? Nope...So, not only are you an idiot who was the first to resort to personal insults (indicating frustration), but you are also racist? What a GREAT combination for a five-year-old to have! Hm... when you play 35-40 minutes a night as Wally did for those few seasons (aside from the '03-04 season when he came off the bench), you're there consistently enough for KG to get "used" to you. Yes, Wally had injury problems, but he was there for more than half the season for three straight years. In '04-05 Wally played in 81 games, but only started in 37 of them... don't use that as an example because that just continued the trend from the previous season when Wally came off the bench because Cassell and Sprewell were in Minnesota.Yes, Jordan would have been able to take that squad out of the first round... probably not to a championship (I don't expect either MJ or KG to), but he would have got them out of the first round. Why? Because he can CARRY a team offensively by himself for a whole season... that is something KG cannot do. That is why Cassell and Sprewell were so vital for him in that WCF run. They made up for the scoring difference so that KG didn't have to score 30 a night. Yes, KG's scoring improved, but KG had never been a player that could go out and give you 25-30 points a night, and carry a team offensively. Watch him play and you could see down the stretch of games that he didn't want to take the big shots, and that he would try to pass it out whenever possible. That's another aspect that Cassell and Spree bailed him out in. They were clutch, especially Sam, and he was the go-to player in crunch time those seasons. Minnesota ran pick-and-rolls with Cassell and KG down the stretch, and more often than not Cassell was the one taking the shot, not KG.Mr. Einstein, I never said that raising the level of play of your teammates makes them "amazing," but a superstar player should be able to take an "average" team (and teammates) and atleast make them "above average." And with those teams KG had around him, he should have been able to lead his team to ONE first-round series victory in SEVEN years. If he had only been knocked out of the first round one or two times, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But the fact of the matter remains that if you can't do it for SEVEN STRAIGHT YEARS, then there is a reason for it.Also, the number of players who "want to play with KG" has nothing to do with whether or not he raised the games of the players he ALREADY played with or that he is currently playing with, now does it smart one?One more thing... you seem to think that I think KG had such great teammates... well, he didn't. But he had CAPABLE teammates, and to think that it is impossible for him to lead them to a first round series victory after they won 50-games together is absolutely retarded. Actually, you again "comprehended" it wrong. I'm saying he is given too much credit for his leadership, especially from you. At this point in his career, he is not known as a leader, and rightfully so because of the fact that he hasn't been in the playoffs in two years. However, during that SEVEN year stretch where he failed to get out of the first round, all the "analysts" and "experts" were signing the same broken record you're singing: that he never had help despite being such a "great leader." So, how in the hell was he "not known" for his leadership back in those days? I have not even brought up the past two years in Minnesota because KG has basically fallen off the map. So, "pee wee brain," do you understand it now? Holy sh*t! You're calling me the kindergardner when you can't even comrephend such a simple point? Here is the damn thing you quoted from me:"OK, he's not "known for those characteristics at all?" And what characteristics might you be speaking of?"Now, I said that he's not known for those characteristics at all... then I said "and what characteristics might you be speaking of?" If you don't understand the fact that I was asking you what characteristics he is not known for in your opinion with the above quote, then you definitely are an idiot. Give that exact quote to everybody else on this board, and they will understand what I was asking, but apparently you didn't. Now, as you would say... "lmao lmao lmao lmao." Before saying I should correct my own posts before debating, you should make sure that you are capable of understanding basic simple sentences, dumbass. Alright Mr. Smart One, if you meant that Malone didn't start winning until Stockton was given minutes, then you should be more specific instead of giving generic arguments. Despite that little misunderstanding, I'll break down for you why Malone and KG's situations are different.Now, in Malone's first season, he WAS NOT the main option of that team... Adrian Dantley was. Dantley averaged TWICE AS MANY POINTS as Malone did, thus he was their main option, and he was the one shouldering the offensive responsibility. So, the "blame" for their first round loss that season goes to Dantley... not Malone.In KG's first trip to the playoffs (his second season in the league), Tom Gugliotta averaged two more points a night than KG, indicating that both Tom and KG were the main options on that squad. So, the "blame" for their first round exit that season falls on both their shoulders.In Malone's second season, he was the main option of that team, and they lost 3-2 in the first round, and the "blame" falls on his shoulders for that one year.In KG's second trip to the postseason, both he and Tom Gugliotta were the main options once again, so the blame falls on both their shoulder.As you can see, Malone was only the first option on that team for one season prior to getting to run with Stockton. Secondly, Malone WAS a leader. He made the playoffs every season in his career, and he and Stockon were the leaders on those two Utah teams that went to the Finals. On Minnesota's run to the WCF in '03-04, Cassell and Spree were their leaders, while KG was their best player. Again, if you had actually followed that team that entire season, you would know that. But, since you are just relying on the fact that KG had the best statistical season on that squad (and thus he is the leader in your eyes), you obviously have very little knowledge of how players can impact the game in various ways. Hell, the fact that you didn't realize how Cassell and Spree opened up the game for Garnett to do his thing really showed me how little knowledge you have. Why are you ignoring the fact that I showed how stupid you sounded? First of all, to dispute your point above that KG doesn't need to raise his play, EVERY SUPERSTAR PLAYER has to raise their game in the playoffs... You said it yourself earlier that the playoffs are harder... well, if they are harder, YOU HAVE TO RAISE YOUR GAME TO OVERCOME THAT. Now, KG is no exception... he HAS TO RAISE HIS GAME. Since he DOESN'T RAISE HIS GAME IN THE POSTSEASON, well... its easy to see why he isn't a leader and why he never made it out of the first round. GREAT PLAYERS MAKE THEIR TEAMMATES BETTER, AND THEY RAISE THEIR LEVEL OF PLAY IN THE POST SEASON. Jordan did it, Shaq did it, Malone did it, Stockton did it, Duncan did it, LeBron did it, Wade did it, Iveson did it, Pierce did it, Kobe did it... so why can't/didn't KG?Yes, KG is the most individually talented PF in the game, nobody is denying that, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need to raise his level of play. If that is your logic, then Jordan was the most talented and greatest player to ever play the game, so did he not have to raise his play in the postseason? Once again, take a deeper look at the differences in these two situations and you'll see that the comparison makes no sense.First of all, Barkley came to the Suns prior to the '92-93 season, and in his first season he LED them to the Finals. In KG's situation... KG was there since '95... Cassell and Spree came to the team in '03-04 and they went to the WCF. So, the difference there is Barkley was the missing piece for PHX... Cassell and Spree were the missing piece for Minnesota, with that being said, comparing Barkley and KG in that case makes no sense.Secondly, I've been arguing that KG should have been able to get out of the first round without Sam and Spree. Barkley went out of the first round NUMEROUS times without Dan and Cedric Ceballos, whereas KG has NEVER been out of the first round without Sam and Spree.So, once again, you're comparison makes no sense. Sorry... but try again. I said KG "led" (notice the quotes) his team to several 50 win seasons, indicating that if you believe he is a leader then if should be able to "lead" his team to a first-round victory in those seasons if he was able to "lead" them to 50-win seasons with "incapable" teammates. That is supported by me asking the question numerous times... and you still have not answered it. If he can lead "incapable" players to 50-win seasons, why can't he lead the same "incapable" players to a first-round series victory ONCE IN <u>SEVEN</u> YEARS? Yeah, your reasoning before was that the playoffs are harder (which they are), right? Well, as I stated before, superstar players raise their games and overcome those difficulties... but KG never did it once in a seven year span.First of all, to point out the fallacy in your argument, if you now say that leadership and winning are not the same things, then why do you use the argument that he leads "incapable" players to the playoffs? I mean, if you truly believe that a good leader doesn't have to lead his team to victory, etc., then why do you try to say that KG leads crappy teams to the playoffs and that he carries teams on his back for seven years? If leadership does not equal winning, then how do YOU measure a leader, what qualties do YOU think are more important in a leader in basketball? In basketball, leadership = winning, and if you are going to consider a player to be a good leader, then he should be able to "lead" his team to a first round victory instead of being knocked out of the first round for seven straight years. Nice try buddy, but you're "crystal clear" argument has more flaws than a fake diamond. Every point you have tried to make has been discredited... I mean, when two of the top posters on this board (Nitro and myself) have been destroying your argument repeatedly, what makes you think you are making us look like fools? Ask anybody who makes better points, who supports those points with better facts and statements, and who refutes the opposition's points better (out of us two), and the majority of them will tell you that it's me... not you!If you think you're "humilating" me... well, then keep it coming buddy. Because as far as I can tell, you're the one who is looking like an idiot. Keep it coming man...Also, before you say that I'm an eight-year-old moron with English as a second language, why don't you take a look at how I'm a better write than you, how I have a better vocabulary than you, how I have better grammar than you, and how my posts are actually legible. Taking all that into account, with the fact that I'm older than you... in college... and in one of the top business schools in the country (and best in the state)... if I'm the one who has English as a second language, what does that make you? Hm...Keep it coming man...
Re: Battle of the 21's Big Mo- :beerchug: Don't argue with him, he's too hard headed to realize that KG has to take the blame for never leading those 50 win teams, and 4th and 3rd place teams to the 2nd round of the playoffs in over 10 years.
Re: Battle of the 21's I got two of the BBW's "best posters" against me...let's see how long I can take BigMo with what Im hanging on... :boxin: Before I begin this post, I don't want ANY bad blood between any of you guys....I'll abandon any further personal insults (only in replies to yours)..I think that'd be able to get respected and we can carry on a regular debate..no low blows..Round Two.... I never even STATED that KG "carries" his teams bro ...and let me point something out for ya man.. Because KG is known to choke in big situations, I thought I've already pointed that out, and for the record just about EVERY teammate he played with had better averages so don't say he didn't make his teammates better in the playoffs neither. True he DOESNT RAISE his own play, but ultimately look at his teammates in the 'offs and you'll see what I mean. Not with the cast he had...the only person I've seen do such a thing with the level of teammates he has would be Iverson and LeBron....of today too... Again...generic sh*t..a VETERAN Point Guard like Cassell's job is basically to DO the things that he did, he's SUPPOSED TO run the offense, he's SUPPOSED to direct players in the huddle, he's SUPPOSED to direct players on the floor...those intentions are nearly mandatory for a point guard to come in like that....and what to expect? ALL those teams that they played in the playoffs they already challenged in that regular season...against LAL they went 3-1..against Denver they went 4-1..against Sacremento they went 2-1...they PLAYED against those squads but this was just labeled "playoff", more pressure yes, but they didnt tell them "what to expect"...And no, Sprewell wasn't much of a leader over Garnett, the only one you can argue would be Sam, and he'd only start to take over during the playoffs since he "had playoff experience".. He WASNT the reason, JORDAN was the main reason for Jordan's success, all those different Bull squads that Jordan was put on was more of a reason than Scottie would ever be when getting credited with Michael's career. And no he probably wouldn't..but would Scottie and Michael would've even WON a ring without the Bulls squad they were put on? Nope. Course not..but would Sam and Spree take that team to, let alone the PLAYOFFS without KG? Nuh uh..The mexican part came from the borderline setup I entered in earlier..not a racist but a stereotype.. I never said that Wally didn't have enough time to get acquainted, but playing as a second option and a third option is a huge change..Because Jordan WAS Jordan....and in that certain aspect Latrell and Sam were NOT vital, they were vital in helping the team in overall and the playoffs because of their "experience", but they were in NO way even vital of his individual scoring..and KG isn't a clutch player whilst Sam was...WHY are you still going with the conspiracy that he never made his teammates better? He basically molded careers for everyone who played with him, just about EVERY one of his players had a career year with him, and the dude turned a Wally Sczerbiak into an allstar...who would've known someone like Wally would be scoring what he does. No, but the numbers and the gameplay of his teammates ALONE (when playing with KG) showed that Garnett DID raise their play so don't even try to advance any further in that aspect..Once again, Garnett IS a superstar but the dude isnt one to play amazing in the playoffs with "raised play"..and playing with teammates along the names of TROY HUDSON and RASHO NESTORVIC isn't really a "capable" squad... Um, that wasn't the point at hand, you straddled off to something COMPLETELY different..it started with: It started off with an argument about comprehension, you just made something completely new up man. Please be more "specific" next time if you want to say things..honestly when you say, "hes not known for those characteristics (winning, clutch..etc)" and then when you go ahead and say "what characters MIGHT I be speaking of", how does that even IMPLY what I think that he's "not known for"....why in the first place would you EVEN WANT TO KNOW what he "isnt known for"..seriously.. Before I answer this, let me ask you ONE question for your next reply..who was the leader of the '86 Jazz..and why...answer this and then I'll reply bro. OH so now Garnett IS NOT a superstar? Every superstar raises their play and OBVIOUSLY to you Garnett doesn't raise any aspect at all (even though his teammates perform 10x better than they did in the regular season), than Kevin isn't a superstar isn't a superstar in your eyes right? The guy is NOT one to turn the switch on during the playoffs..not to mention ALL those players on that list play on a MUCH better team than Garnett. Still, the point is LOOK at all the talent of the teams Chuck has been on, all MUCH more talent than Garnett's squads and STILL no cigar.. Ahh man..F*ck this...honestly BigMo, you've won, I was hanging on the last leaf bro and you're better than what I expected, best debater HONESTLY that I've faced but I was on an island to begin with...great job picking out the flaws, was just a matter of how long I could hold on..I'll defintely see you later in a debate, hopefully when its less one sided ..congrats I guess, like the only debate Ive ever loss , glad it was a Philly fan too..nice avatar by the way..I still gotta bone to pick with you though Nitro...
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='Nitro1118' post='124016' date='Jul 25 2006, 06:46 PM'] I consider above average "good". It is either crap, average, good, and great. KG's teams were all good, and since we are comparing him to TD, him never getting past 1st round in over 10 years as the sole leader is terrib;e.I never said he had great teammates. They were good, and good enough to get them into 3rd and 4th seed almost every year, yet they STILL lost in playoff time. Considering KG was the leader of those teams, I put the blame on him (same with T-Mac and his Orlando teams). There is no excuse for that.[/quote]sh*t-Average-Above Average-Good-Great, thats how the scale goes for me..and again the TD comparison is SO far off and not even in this topic anymore...Good? God, you don't really understand that GOOD is Sam Cassell and Sprewell...Downright "below average", having no name teammates that YOU singlehandledly improved doesn't benefit you in the greatest way possible, and if you want to even ARGUE Wally, don't, he had shooting and didn't provide anything else....did Garnett help him? Course...did Wally even help him like he should've? No sir. Yeah..I never argued differently...BUT HOW in the HELL is there a difference? Is there a secret "hidden" attribute in Wally that shows how well he does with less pressure off of him? Lmao, its all virtually the SAME THING...less pressure=better play...honestly, understand that before you reply again. Going where? I'm staying here.... :shifty2: Oh as a "leader"? Who CARES who plays better as a "leader", lmao, honestly, if you want to compare them, do it ONE ON ONE, don't take the cheap way out and say "as a leader"...my opinion also hasn't changed, Garnett WAS the leader of that squad IMO, even if he had to share spots with Cassell, no player like Sam would come in and suddenly take the leadership role from a player who's been there his whole career...and don't make me laugh at the "near upsets" comment neither, what's next, how many times he's NEARLY racked up 15 assists? Or how many times he's NEARLY scored 65? I dont want to hear it man... Again arguging with numbers man? Stats dont tell the whole story, especially if your gonna debate with it Anyways, the point is he made an ALL STAR in Minnesota, he didn't make one elsewhere, who would've thought a 33 Year old guy would have his like his BEST SEASON with KG, so don't even try arguing the "KG doesnt make his teammates any better" theory anymore...and AGAIN, dude NUMBERS do NOT tell the whole damn story, you need to concentrate on everything else, how well they work with the team, the impact they have on the team, the gameplay in general, numbers on papers are your arguments but when you see 20 PPG and someone else has a 19 PPG that doesnt necessarily make them better...that's like saying Wally+Korver > Ron Artest+Shane Battier Again numbers, numbers, numbers! FIRST OF ALL, getting 6 APG is pretty easy for a player with his experience playing with the most talented PF in the L and a "fantastic shooter"..and since you seem so hopped up at making KG's teammates look like ballbusters, add Rasho Nestorvic and Sam Mitchell to that list too! He was signed essentially as a backup to Terrell Brandon and played like it, the numbers even explain how unefficient he was..and before you jump at me, here's some NUMBERS for you..Marbury averaged 8.5 APG on his tenure with the Wolves, this INCLUDED his rookie season, Chauncey was assigned to the Wolves his third or fourth season (?)..now you dont think Marbury is better than Billups do you? Terrell Brandon averaged 8.2 APG with the Wolves...you don't think he's better than Chauncey do you? EXACTLY, dont rephrase it just because its a debate, He DOES make them better and its no difference when KG DOES lead them and he DOES show them what to do..it's not only open shots that he gets them, what about guys like Rasho, Googs, Sealy, with no range and jumpshot really...and if getting teammates plenty of open jumpshots and letting them play to their best potential AND for their numbers to increase isn't helping a player ultimately play better..than honestly I dont know what is. I can deny it and I am...and Sam's best season in Minnesota=20 and 7...best season on "other" teams= 18 and 9....2 down in statistic but gets better in another...almost equal but the fact that he got the WCF weighs obviously in the Minnesota direction, and not to mention that he was in the epitome of his prime at that age, usually at Cassell's age players are considered washed up and out of their prime but KG made the year he played wholly with him arguably his best season. And yes...they DID make him better just like Garnett made THEM better which is terribly hard especially at their age..You forgetting Houston's Game Winining shot in Miami? And you MAY call Houston "one dimensional", but you can NOT knock on the fact that he was one of the purest shooters this league has seen in a while, you CANT knock on the fact that he's 10th on all time 3Pt Shooting, you CANT knock on the fact that he possesed clutch abilities, one of the greatest scorers the game has seen, let alone the Knicks franchise..you can call THAT one dimensional if you like, but he's playing at the highest level possible for being "one dimensional"..oh and for Spree taking the 2nd most shots on that team..he took the THIRD most shots on the team bro And how the HELL do you tell who the "leader" is? Honestly, and how the HELL does it matter to you? I think KG is the leader, you think Sam was, but who GIVES A sh*t who was the leader...WHO was the better player? GARNETT Who was the most important player? GARNETT....and I wouldn't call Malone the leader of the Utah team neither.. Wow Lmao I got him and Stephen confused...anyways the Season would come like 7 months after his leg was shattered, I suppose MOST of it was rehabilitated but the guy played great for a rookie so it doesnt matter, aveaging 12 and 7 as a rookie isn't shabby, especially for a player brought in mainly for his rebounding and defense. And Kittles, TMC and Collins were the best role player when it was KVH that was tied knot to knot with KMart at scoring and leading the team in RPG...better role player? No sir. KVH was injured HALF the season in KMart's rookie season...and Kittles..well who gives a sh*t about Kerry...and once again you have to rely on stats for your argument, STATS DONT DEFINE a player man, not to mention players have mentioned his selfish tendecies and even Tim Thomas once saying Starbury was the WORST teammate he's ever had, and the dude is VERY good individually but teamwise the man is a cancer regardless of his stats, and dont even try to bring KG into it neither, Starbury went to different teams and they've ALL been unsuccesful EVEN when he OBVIOUSLY had enough talent on the team to get past the 1st round. Once again, STATISTICS, having a guy like Marion with the versatility of Marion..if Garnett was "enabled" to win with solid players like Rasho , then Shawn should've been more than enough, and Penny...well he didn't show up on the stat sheet like he used to but he was a "solid" role player...and one word matters in that sentence pal.."ALMOST"....ALMOST, ALMOST, ALMOST!! My 76ers ALMOST made the playoffs, dont bash us for sucking and having probably the worst GM in the league..lol, ALMOST doesn't matter man, DID they do it? No sir. But was ALL this talent MORE than enough to get past the 1st? You bet. Wow you argue with your numbers out of EVERYTHING dont you? Wtf is your point anyways? 50 games is MORE than half the season and if you suck by the time their tenure is over then your pretty much F*cked anyways. Face it, when Houston left that team went down the damn drain and Stephon had again had MORE than enough talent to make it to the Semis...Starbury MAY have averaged 20 and 10, but ultimately did the TEAM get any better as a whole? What was their record? what was their record THIS season? Any playoffs yet? Any SEMIS yet? The dude is a cancer EVEN when you look deeper into the picture...and Tim MAY have only played 25 games but that was enough for him to basically call Starbury a f*cking ***hole ...how's that for being an awesome teammate.. What team? The run with Starbury? That was like only TWO frickin seasons...and in the end, one can argue that all the failure seasons was not Marbury's fault JUST like in the same situation with KG, but if you look DEEPER into the situation, its evident that teams got better as he left, its EVIDENT that players got better as he left..not to mention the guy is totally insecure
Re: Battle of the 21's [quote name='His Greatness' date='Jul 26 2006, 03:31 AM' post='124357']sh*t-Average-Above Average-Good-Great, thats how the scale goes for me..and again the TD comparison is SO far off and not even in this topic anymore...Good? God, you don't really understand that GOOD is Sam Cassell and Sprewell...Downright "below average", having no name teammates that YOU singlehandledly improved doesn't benefit you in the greatest way possible, and if you want to even ARGUE Wally, don't, he had shooting and didn't provide anything else....did Garnett help him? Course...did Wally even help him like he should've? No sir. Yeah..I never argued differently...BUT HOW in the HELL is there a difference? Is there a secret "hidden" attribute in Wally that shows how well he does with less pressure off of him? Lmao, its all virtually the SAME THING...less pressure=better play...honestly, understand that before you reply again.[/quote]Oh yeah, Sam is just GOOD. Averaging 18PPG or more for 8 different seasons, 7APG or more 6 different seasons, and every crap team he goes on turns to a playoff team (Clips, Nets, Bucks). And once again, Wally is a very solid 2nd option for scoring, and a great ying to KG's yang. We are talking about leadership here. Sam was the locker room leader and floor general. KG was the best player, and oozed emotion, but was not the leader. And what T-Mac only had the chance to do 3x he did much better than what KG has had a chance to do over and over again. And again, if we are talking about players, KG would ahve that edge because he got deeper into playoffs, but as leaders KG's negatives in the playoffs outweigh the season where he wasn't the leader. His numbers have always been similar every season. Sam ALWAYS makes a huge impact, look at the Clips, look at the Nets, look at what he did in the Finals in his first 2 seasons! He didn't make all star team before because he was never on a #1 seeded team, so he was always underappreciated. He deserved to be on the all star team quite a few times. If Tony Parker made it this year with 19/6, Sam should have made it 6 seasons. Rasheed shouldn't have made the all star team this year, but he did. Just goes to show the team you are on effects that.Numbers tell a ton about a player. You can tell right away from looking at a player's stats what kind of player they are. Sam has done WAY more in his career than Parker, was the better player in '03-'04, and makes every team he is on much better through leadership on and off the court. Spree's numbers were similar to Ginobli's, but Ginobli is extremely inconsistent and his jumper is shaky. Spree in '03-'04 was also a better overall player. All 4 had to play with superstar PF's who get over 20/10, so it is a very even comparison. Chauncey is better right now than Steph was then, but Chauncey took a few years. Like I was debating in another topic, some players are just more ready coming out of college/HS. But getting 13/6 is damn good. Terrel Brandon was a good player. No, he is not better than Final's MVP Chauncey Billups, but he was good. All of those 50 win teams that finished in 3rd place should ahve gotten through to 2nd round ONCE, especially if we are arguing leadership. You have failed as the leader and someone consistently calkled the ebst player in the game if you can't do that. Leadership is also in locker room. It is being the floor general. It is taking over the most important games of your life and willing your team to victory. KG didn't do this successfully. The year that Sam was all of that, including floor general and telling everyone everything, they made it to WCF. And if Sam didn't get injured that series, they would ahve made it to Finals! It is no secret why KG was so marginally better that season offensively, while Cassell had one of his 2 or 3 best seasons. Cassel, at 35/36 now, is getting 17/7. No, it isn't as good as when he was with Minny (the Clips need more touches to go around, though, as Brand needs more touches to get points than KG, Corey needs touches, Cuttino with his low FG % moreso than Spree, and the rest. But still, he led that team in the locker room and was floor general, and guess what? Pushed Suns to 7 games in second round. The CLIPPERS! He made the crappy Clips into a very, very good team. Yes, he was a pure shooter. Very pure. But he was NOT one of the greatest scorers the game has ever seen. He had 2 seasons of over 20PPG, but that's it. He was just a shooter. Damn good shooter. But considering everything, he was just as effective and less efficient than Wally, even in APG and RPG. I am N-O-T saying Wally was better, but with Minny he got his open shots and hit them and averaged around 47-48% FG, so he did his job very well. Umm, we are talking about leadership, that's what this whole arguement is. Of course KG is a better player than Sam, better than Steph, etc... But the debate is who is better, KG or Duncan, and outside of talent and numbers, one thing stands out: 2 MVP's, 3 'chips, 3 finals MVP's, and getting out of 1st round every year all the while being the leader on 2 of the 3 'chips to 1 MVP, countless 1st round knockout with him being leader, and 1 year of getting out of 1st round while he wasn't leader. I live in NJ and still have a Stephon jersey from 2000, go to a few games a year, and watch the games on TV. Steph wasn't the problem with those Nets teams. Injuries and terribly put together teams were. It wasn't until they got everyone healthy, a few more role players, and a pure PG in JKidd who was perfect with those players. With the Suns, they were very promising when Amare arrived, but the next season was filled with injuries, and Steph got traded. Steph made NY MUCH better and played fantastically, but once again, injuries. Next season they got a true cancer in Jamal Crawford, and injuries and other terrible decisions plagued the season. And then this past year they made TERRIBLE decisions with Francis, Richardson, etc... Ad of course getting a coach like Larry Brown who can't work well with scoring PG's like Steph. Instead of exploiting his advatages he tried to make him like Chauncey, and that just isn't the player he is. Once again, I'm not arguing Steph being a better leader than KG. But those Suns teams, outside of the year with Amare, wasn't enough to get past 1st round. The 2nd year with Amare there were lots of injuries, which was upsetting as Amare was starting to really develop. Once again, he made the first NY team much better, and led the team to playoffs (they weren't evena contender before then). Next seaosn was filled with bad moves and you can't put another player that plays just like Steph (Jamal) at SG. Next seaosn you bring in Larry Brown, a guy who loves veterans and the conventional game, and bring in players like Steve Francis, QRich, and of course still Steph and Jamal. Just terrible GM'ing by IT.
Re: Battle of the 21's They both have the exact same type of game with the inside shooting touch, but the only area where KG excels a lil more is dribbling.
Re: Battle of the 21's Great job with the quotes ..and what happened to being "done"...[quote name='Nitro1118' post='124559' date='Jul 26 2006, 01:47 PM'] Oh yeah, Sam is just GOOD. Averaging 18PPG or more for 8 different seasons, 7APG or more 6 different seasons, and every crap team he goes on turns to a playoff team (Clips, Nets, Bucks). And once again, Wally is a very solid 2nd option for scoring, and a great ying to KG's yang.[/quote]Aagain with the numbers ..I hope you know that his stats ARE good but take other things into factor, his playmaking is NOT up to part with GREAT players, he's way out of his age, his PG skills aren't up to part with GREAT players and he has no defense neither, he's a good player, and the fact that he turns teams into contenders is great, but is he GREAT with players like Iverson, Nash? Course not, the guy is a GOOD player, he's an ALLSTAR but he IS no superstar so don't put him out to be one.And would you stop saying the ying and the yang? Lol, it sounds a bit gay...he MAY be good at scoring but once again, he does not PROVIDE ANYTHING ELSE, he does NOT help KG besides as someone he can pass to when he's getting doubled or whatnot. Does he play good defense? Nope, does he even somewhat HELP KG with anything else? Nope, no playmaking and passing skills whatsoever neither. SOLID shooter, sucky player, good enough to consistently see success in the playoffs? No, I doubt MJ would be able to with just "Wally World" by his side... Well let's see, Sam being the floor general is quite MANDATORY for a POINT GUARD..seriously, what the hell do you think a point guard's job is? WHO CARES what he had to do as a "leader", seriously wtf is all this leadership sh*t that you keep on generating? There's no "statistic" for who the leader was is there? Any proof of it this time? And sure, he put up some nice stats...but on the real note we were talking about actually ADVANCING, McGrady hasn't done that and I dont care how many times he's ALMOST done something..and just about ALL these "awesome" numbers in the playoffs are in 4 games..let's see him do it in like 11+ and then I'd be more impressed.. Similar every season but the most success he's ever seen actually STARTING was with the Wolves, and statistically his BEST SEASON was with the Wolves, I dont care that they've been similar but his BEST was with the Wolves so don't deny it with some common excuse...so YOU NEED a #1 Seeded Team to make the All Star team? Szczerbiak wasn't on #1 Seeded Team when he made it, all of Sprewell's All Stars were NOT on a #1 Seeded Team...and underappreciated? Hmm..so I guess EVERYONE just missed the season when the Bucks would go to the Second seed right? Sure he's done WAY more but you cannot say that's hes a better player, individually Parker was better on both ends, the dude is MUCH quicker than the 33 year old Sam and WILL be able to burn him offensively, especially with Sam's skill on the defensive end...and Tony's defensive mechanism is WAY better than Cassell...Sam would play better on a team but INDIVIDUALLY one on one, IMO Tony is better than the '04 Sam'...and as a team player its arguable who's better too with the way TP3 is working with Timmy and already two rings at 23..oh and the numbers are SIMILAR but Manu is better..if you want to argue numbers, Manu has never averaged OVER 30 MPG in his whole career Latrell averages just about 40 MPG in every season and yet the numbers are suprisngly close..plus with the age advantage Ginobili has over Sprewell Getting 13/6 is good, but once again your looking at the numbers, the guy was a liability, he was not a polished point guard yet..and sure the Assist number looks good but he never did blossom until going to Detroit and playing with the "talent" and "awesome players" in Minnesota was obviously not enough...and all those 50 Win teams SHOULD have won? Would you look at the teams they had to face in the 1st Round with Billups and Brandon? Nash/Dirk with the Mavs, Duncan/Robinson with the Spurs, Sheed/Pippen with the Blazers....I mean Brandon is a pretty good player but is HE and KG enough to beat the talent on these other teams? I dont think so.. Do you even know what leadership in the locker room is, bro? Anyways, for one, like I've been saying, a point guard IS supposed to be the "floor general", a point guards JOB is to direct the team, run the offense so I don't see that as a surprise at all...and then for you to say KG doesn't take over games..I just laugh at that..Cassell was the type of player than KG always needed and he got to play ONE full season with him. ONE, had they played another full season together I dont know what would've happened with that team...no matter what you say with this leadership generic bullsh**, KG will always be the one and CASSELL will always be looked on as the sidekick of the duo, not the other way around....and Sam had his best season in Minny..but I thought Garnett DIDNT make players better? Because overall the Clippers team has more talent since really KG is the only one that sticks out with the Wolves, and Cassell took about 1 more shot per game in Minny too..I never denied his ability as a person to turn crap into gold neither because obviously he has the talent to, but I never said a THING about the Clippers so I have no idea how it got in here...oh and I thought KG didn't make players better, I gues the WOLVES made him better huh ? I went overboard with the greatest scorers comment, but he WAS one of the greatest scorers the Knicks franchise has EVER SEEN and that can not be denied....and Wally played on a team with KG, Houston on a team with Ewing...you tell me who drew more attention on offense. Houston > Wally Lol...again, the comparison between Duncan and KG already ended ages ago...and I think we both can agree that Timmy is better.. Let me sum my response up in one pargraph...if KG should've made it past the 1st with Terrell Brandon, Troy Hudson, and Rasho Nesterovic...than Marbury should've made it past the 1st with Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, Keith Van Horn, and K-Mart...seriously, and don't cmoe up with any injury situation sh*t neither, or about how "close" he might've been at beating a team...Your turn
Re: Battle of the 21's There is no reason to keep going, your points are getting consistently weaker, but 2 things:So you bash Marbury even though he only played 50 games with Houston (which i don't even know for sure, as Marbury was traded there halfway through the year, and Houston didn't play in playoffs) yet you say Cassel only played one season with KG, yet he played the full first season and 60 games the next season (and Latrell played that season too)? Yes, I do know what leadership is in the locker room. Obviously you don't if you don't think Cassell was the leader of that Wolves team. I am now officially done with this arguement as your comments get more and more childish and your stance on subjects keeps changing.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 26 2006, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There is no reason to keep going, your points are getting consistently weaker, but 2 things:So you bash Marbury even though he only played 50 games with Houston (which i don't even know for sure, as Marbury was traded there halfway through the year, and Houston didn't play in playoffs) yet you say Cassel only played one season with KG, yet he played the full first season and 60 games the next season (and Latrell played that season too)? Yes, I do know what leadership is in the locker room. Obviously you don't if you don't think Cassell was the leader of that Wolves team. I am now officially done with this arguement as your comments get more and more childish and your stance on subjects keeps changing.</div>Then keep going on and try to discredit them if your the almighty debater, I was on with another point with BigMo and he sucessfully did it..why cant you? Did I bash him? Nah, did I say cassell only played one season? Nah way to exit out of the debate though... :no1:
Re: Battle of the 21's You said if he played another full season you wouldn't know what would happen, yet you made Houston seem like an almighty god and that Marbury was hardly the reasot he made the playoffs. Steph totally carried that Knicks team, a team that wasn't even in contention, to a playoff spot. He did it with some of the best stats in the league. I don't care if he's not a great teammte or leader, he's a damn good player who's had terrible luck with almost each team he's been on. Unlike KG, who people put the leader tag on and has had over a decade to do something he still hasn't done, Marbury really has had terrible luck with other people's injuries. He has never gotten a real chance. KG has had tons of players built around him, and many of the teams were 50 win teams that had homecourt advantage and they were STILL stomped every year. I never once said Steph was a leader or great teammate, but if KG is truly a good leader, that combo should have worked out a lot better than it did. I go back to my point: Cassell and Spree were the locker room leaders of that team, Sam was floor general along with KG. When KG leads a team past a 1st round defeat (something he hasn't been able to do in over a decade, despite homecourt advantage, good players around him, etc..) THEN you could possibly say he is a good leader. In order to be a good leader, you have to win. Would a captain of a ship lead his boat only 3/4 of the way to where it needs to be, despite having a good crew and boat fit for him? No. Would he be a good leader if he tried countless times and same results? No. KG has been same way, homecourt advantage with a good team built around him, and he has never done anything. He doesn't elevate play in playoffs, and always seems to dissapear in last 5min of games. He is an amazing player, but NOT a great leader. You have twisted and wiggled all throughout this debate, trying to disprove FACTS by insults among other ridiculous arguements. If KG can lead a team to a 50 win season, homecourt advanatage in playoffs, and has MVP considerations himself, he should be able to get team past 1st round at least once in those 5 or so chances he had with those 45-50 win teams that had homecourt advantage!
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 26 2006, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You said if he played another full season you wouldn't know what would happen, yet you made Houston seem like an almighty god and that Marbury was hardly the reasot he made the playoffs. Steph totally carried that Knicks team, a team that wasn't even in contention, to a playoff spot. He did it with some of the best stats in the league. I don't care if he's not a great teammte or leader, he's a damn good player who's had terrible luck with almost each team he's been on. Unlike KG, who people put the leader tag on and has had over a decade to do something he still hasn't done, Marbury really has had terrible luck with other people's injuries. He has never gotten a real chance. KG has had tons of players built around him, and many of the teams were 50 win teams that had homecourt advantage and they were STILL stomped every year. I never once said Steph was a leader or great teammate, but if KG is truly a good leader, that combo should have worked out a lot better than it did. I go back to my point: Cassell and Spree were the locker room leaders of that team, Sam was floor general along with KG. When KG leads a team past a 1st round defeat (something he hasn't been able to do in over a decade, despite homecourt advantage, good players around him, etc..) THEN you could possibly say he is a good leader. In order to be a good leader, you have to win. Would a captain of a ship lead his boat only 3/4 of the way to where it needs to be, despite having a good crew and boat fit for him? No. Would he be a good leader if he tried countless times and same results? No. KG has been same way, homecourt advantage with a good team built around him, and he has never done anything. He doesn't elevate play in playoffs, and always seems to dissapear in last 5min of games. He is an amazing player, but NOT a great leader. You have twisted and wiggled all throughout this debate, trying to disprove FACTS by insults among other ridiculous arguements. If KG can lead a team to a 50 win season, homecourt advanatage in playoffs, and has MVP considerations himself, he should be able to get team past 1st round at least once in those 5 or so chances he had with those 45-50 win teams that had homecourt advantage!</div> I never even implied Houston as a god bro...I said once he was out Starbury was unable to even do the smuch with virtually the same team Allan played with, the team was going down the drain anyways and Marbury didn't do much to improve the situation. Did he help the situation a bit? Of course he did, but did he ultimately even improve the siutation with the 20 and 10 "godly" like stats? Nope. I mean sure, when he got there they were 14-22..ended 39-43, probably better than what they would have? Yeah, HUGE improvement? No. My point and proof? Look at the 2005 and 2006 seasons. And to even say the slightest thing like Bad Luck followed him...come on, I know there's bad luck (Webber coming into Philly..hint hint...) but it doesn't follow you around your WHOLE career, I mean sure, you say there was injuries but come on, he had ALL the talent he would need, Shawn Marion wasn't injured..and does it help that when he came to the Suns with VIRTUALLY the same roster they had the year before, and they would go from a playoff to lottery team? Even when Amare came they get knocked in the First. If Hudson/Billups/Stephon himself/and Brandon are "efficient" enough for Garnett to accomplish something, than Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion were all MORE than enough for Marbury to get past the 1st round. And if you said Marbury was "never a good teammate" then how the hell is a good leader going to work with the exact opposite of him, ESPECIALLY when the kid is young and in his beginning years..Sam was the locker room leader, offensively he was also the leader, defensively KG was the leader and the emotional leader...can it be argued that SAM was the alone leader? Of course, but can it ALSO be argued that Garnett and Cassell shared their roles? Yes. And yeah, he MAY not be looked on as a good leader for choking in clutch situations, not coming up big sometimes but MALONE was just about the same way, never won a ring but he went down as one of the greatest PFs of all time...but I DONT see him as a leader the way I do with KG. Now KG may NEVER win ( I put most of that blame on the roster personally) but BEING A LEADER isn't about winning, LEADERSHIP obviously means something different to me..BEING a leader is ultiamtely being dedicated to your team throughout EVERYTHING, STAYING with your team throughout EVERYTHING, and playing your damn heart out every f*cking night which Garnett did. One of the hardest workers in the NBA and dedicated to his team and what he has shown throughout his career is impressive, but winning wise he may never be realized but the dude is an under the rader player in terms of "leadership". You may never call him a winner, you may never call him a clutch superstar, but NOT calling him arguably the hardest worker and dedicated leader in the NBA is total bullsh**. I never intended to insult you, if I did it was out of response to yours...
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 26 2006, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>BEING a leader is ultiamtely being dedicated to your team throughout EVERYTHING, STAYING with your team throughout EVERYTHING, and playing your damn heart out every f*cking night which Garnett did. One of the hardest workers in the NBA and dedicated to his team and what he has shown throughout his career is impressive, but winning wise he may never be realized but the dude is an under the rader player in terms of "leadership". You may never call him a winner, you may never call him a clutch superstar, but NOT calling him arguably the hardest worker and dedicated leader in the NBA is total bullsh**.</div>What you just defined is something called loyalty, not leadership. :happy0144:
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigMo763 @ Jul 26 2006, 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What you just defined is something called loyalty, not leadership. :happy0144:</div>But then again, LOYALTY is also what you need to be a leaderHe's not a king and he needs to be loyal for others to be loyal too..only Iverson can do that :winkglasses:
Re: Battle of the 21's Great posting His Greatness. You're a great new member for the site. :happy0144:
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ArizonaFan @ Jul 26 2006, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Great posting His Greatness. You're a great new member for the site. :happy0144:</div>Wouldnt really say im new either
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 26 2006, 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I never even implied Houston as a god bro...I said once he was out Starbury was unable to even do the smuch with virtually the same team Allan played with, the team was going down the drain anyways and Marbury didn't do much to improve the situation. Did he help the situation a bit? Of course he did, but did he ultimately even improve the siutation with the 20 and 10 "godly" like stats? Nope. I mean sure, when he got there they were 14-22..ended 39-43, probably better than what they would have? Yeah, HUGE improvement? No. My point and proof? Look at the 2005 and 2006 seasons. And to even say the slightest thing like Bad Luck followed him...come on, I know there's bad luck (Webber coming into Philly..hint hint...) but it doesn't follow you around your WHOLE career, I mean sure, you say there was injuries but come on, he had ALL the talent he would need, Shawn Marion wasn't injured..and does it help that when he came to the Suns with VIRTUALLY the same roster they had the year before, and they would go from a playoff to lottery team? Even when Amare came they get knocked in the First. If Hudson/Billups/Stephon himself/and Brandon are "efficient" enough for Garnett to accomplish something, than Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion were all MORE than enough for Marbury to get past the 1st round. And if you said Marbury was "never a good teammate" then how the hell is a good leader going to work with the exact opposite of him, ESPECIALLY when the kid is young and in his beginning years..Sam was the locker room leader, offensively he was also the leader, defensively KG was the leader and the emotional leader...can it be argued that SAM was the alone leader? Of course, but can it ALSO be argued that Garnett and Cassell shared their roles? Yes. And yeah, he MAY not be looked on as a good leader for choking in clutch situations, not coming up big sometimes but MALONE was just about the same way, never won a ring but he went down as one of the greatest PFs of all time...but I DONT see him as a leader the way I do with KG. Now KG may NEVER win ( I put most of that blame on the roster personally) but BEING A LEADER isn't about winning, LEADERSHIP obviously means something different to me..BEING a leader is ultiamtely being dedicated to your team throughout EVERYTHING, STAYING with your team throughout EVERYTHING, and playing your damn heart out every f*cking night which Garnett did. One of the hardest workers in the NBA and dedicated to his team and what he has shown throughout his career is impressive, but winning wise he may never be realized but the dude is an under the rader player in terms of "leadership". You may never call him a winner, you may never call him a clutch superstar, but NOT calling him arguably the hardest worker and dedicated leader in the NBA is total bullsh**. I never intended to insult you, if I did it was out of response to yours...</div>Isiah ruined the Knicks, not Allan retiring. Nearly all of Marbury's first season with the Knicks Allan wasn't there. Next few years bad coaching, bad GM moves, and terrible team chemistry due to players of same position with huge ego's were the problems, not Marbury. And on the Suns Joe Johnson was a 8PPG on 42% shooting guy while Marbury was there. It wasn't until Marbury left that he started to become an above average player. Marion was always solid, but Marbury and him alone can't get Suns into a playoff team. With Amare, a low post presence, they got into playoffs (he was only a 12PPG guy, but still a presence). As for KG and Marbury, it is easy to make that work if you got a good leader. Look at what McNabb and TO did before they started scuffling (something KG and Marbury never did, especially to that extent). Look at Jason Williams and Antwan Walkers, 2 players with similar reps that marbury has. Put them on a team with 2 great leaders in Shaq and Wade, and you have a championship. The year before they had great teammates with players like Eddie Jones, but raising talent levels made it work due to solid leadership. Malone still got to Finals twice and came close to championships as co-leader with Stockton. He was a winner. KG is, talent wise, a better player, but all the intangibles like leadership put Malone ahead. We do not know how Maloen in his prime could have carried a team like KG has had to, so it si senseless to use him. I never said he wasn't dedicated or hard worker, as he is. He cares a ton about the game. But because he came out of HS and din't have any solid role model to look up to and was drafted into losing situation, it hurt his leadership skills. Not necassarily his fault, but it will hurt him when we look back on KG 30 years from now. Then you look at TD, whose numbers aren't quite as good as KG's, but we will look back on him as probably the best PF of all time.
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 26 2006, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Isiah ruined the Knicks, not Allan retiring. Nearly all of Marbury's first season with the Knicks Allan wasn't there. Next few years bad coaching, bad GM moves, and terrible team chemistry due to players of same position with huge ego's were the problems, not Marbury. And on the Suns Joe Johnson was a 8PPG on 42% shooting guy while Marbury was there. It wasn't until Marbury left that he started to become an above average player. Marion was always solid, but Marbury and him alone can't get Suns into a playoff team. With Amare, a low post presence, they got into playoffs (he was only a 12PPG guy, but still a presence). As for KG and Marbury, it is easy to make that work if you got a good leader. Look at what McNabb and TO did before they started scuffling (something KG and Marbury never did, especially to that extent). Look at Jason Williams and Antwan Walkers, 2 players with similar reps that marbury has. Put them on a team with 2 great leaders in Shaq and Wade, and you have a championship. The year before they had great teammates with players like Eddie Jones, but raising talent levels made it work due to solid leadership.</div> JUST like you can say Kevin McHale ruined the Wolves, but Marbury has been on like FOUR different teams man, BAD LUCK just doens't follow you everywhere you go, he didn't crack a mirror or anything. It wasn't JJ's fault that he never did amazing (he averaged 10 PPG anyways), HE was in charge of that offense and obviously he didn't run as it as well, and I got news for you, that 8 APG doens't mean you "ran" the offense well so if your going to try saying it..dont. And why do you think he "became" above average when Marbury left? sh*t, if KG can actually GET to the 1st with SZCZERBIAK, would it NOT be reasonable for Stephon to get to the playoffs with JJ and Marion? And how come even when Amare would come back....knocked in the 1st Round. And you fail to forget how good the Eagles team REALLY was man, in Minnesota it was KG+Marbury..that's it, and the Heat team was also another great talent, Shaq alone (self proclaimed MDE) and Dwyane, add in some great defenders and bam.....bad comparison because it doesnt work. Point is: KG got the WCF with Sam and Latrell...Marbury couldn't with Marion and Amare <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Malone still got to Finals twice and came close to championships as co-leader with Stockton. He was a winner. KG is, talent wise, a better player, but all the intangibles like leadership put Malone ahead. We do not know how Maloen in his prime could have carried a team like KG has had to, so it si senseless to use him. I never said he wasn't dedicated or hard worker, as he is. He cares a ton about the game. But because he came out of HS and din't have any solid role model to look up to and was drafted into losing situation, it hurt his leadership skills. Not necassarily his fault, but it will hurt him when we look back on KG 30 years from now. Then you look at TD, whose numbers aren't quite as good as KG's, but we will look back on him as probably the best PF of all time.</div> Oh so there's CO leaders now? Since MALONE can be marked as a Co Leader, why can't Garnett (because you and me both know KG had a WAY bigger role as a leader than Latrell)? And Malone didn't HAVE the qualities that you put for a "player to be a leader"..he was NOT clutch, he wasn't the FLOOR GENERAL and NOR did he command the team emotionally, 2 of the traits that KG DID possess..
Re: Battle of the 21's <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jul 27 2006, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>JUST like you can say Kevin McHale ruined the Wolves, but Marbury has been on like FOUR different teams man, BAD LUCK just doens't follow you everywhere you go, he didn't crack a mirror or anything. It wasn't JJ's fault that he never did amazing (he averaged 10 PPG anyways), HE was in charge of that offense and obviously he didn't run as it as well, and I got news for you, that 8 APG doens't mean you "ran" the offense well so if your going to try saying it..dont. And why do you think he "became" above average when Marbury left? sh*t, if KG can actually GET to the 1st with SZCZERBIAK, would it NOT be reasonable for Stephon to get to the playoffs with JJ and Marion? And how come even when Amare would come back....knocked in the 1st Round. And you fail to forget how good the Eagles team REALLY was man, in Minnesota it was KG+Marbury..that's it, and the Heat team was also another great talent, Shaq alone (self proclaimed MDE) and Dwyane, add in some great defenders and bam.....bad comparison because it doesnt work. Point is: KG got the WCF with Sam and Latrell...Marbury couldn't with Marion and Amare</div>Kevin McHale always put good players around KG. GOOD, not great. Isiah has totally slaughtered the Knicks franchise. What he has done in past 2 years will take near a decade to fix. Oh yeah, it wasn't JJ's fault, just like it wasn't Chauncey's fault for not being amazing with KG, right Joe Johnson became better when Steph left because he had a bigger scoring load. Then of course next season everyone became better when nash came to town (along with healthy Amare). And Amare was a ROOKIE when he was with Steph! Of course he isn't gonna get the 26PPG that he got with Nash 2 years later! Amare was still far from a dominant PF/C.Eagles were good, but TO put them over the hump. And TO is a far worse teammate and cancer than Marbury, feuding with his team's leader. Marbury and KG enver did that. And the Heat, as I said, wer epushed over the hump by replacing less talented players with more talented players that were bad teammates. Before Williams arrived with the Heat he was being called a cancer and bad teammate. LEADERSHIP put him in place and made it a success. Same with Walker. KG dropped the ball with a player as good as Steph.T-Wolves of 2003-2004 were far better than that Suns team. Better leadership, some great role players (Sczerbiak played role player, Hudson, Hoiberg, Hassel, etc..). And once again, I'm definately not arguing Steph is better leade or better player than KG, but he is not a cancer. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Oh so there's CO leaders now? Since MALONE can be marked as a Co Leader, why can't Garnett (because you and me both know KG had a WAY bigger role as a leader than Latrell)? And Malone didn't HAVE the qualities that you put for a "player to be a leader"..he was NOT clutch, he wasn't the FLOOR GENERAL and NOR did he command the team emotionally, 2 of the traits that KG DID possess..</div>I never ever said Malone was the leader. He was Co-leader on court, and emotionally/locker room Stockton never was one to really speak up. KG was best player on floor, while Cassel was floor general and locker room leader.
