When I say blow up I meant scoring. How the f*ck hard is it to understand that I realize Bron is the better player and I am arguing scoring, not overall game! And 4% lower FG percentage, 7% lower 3pt percentage, 1APG less, and over 1 TO more is definately heavily struggling. LeBron's 2 major flaws since he has arrived in the league is shooting and TO's. He has improved shooting and reducing TO's, but there is still lots to improve. Hell, if I really wanted to, I could make a case for T-Mac being the better player (better scorer IMO, better defender, more clutch, etc...). But the fact of the matter is LeBron is the best overall offensive player in the league, and even though I think T-Mac is the better scorer, that will change within another year or so.T-Mac averaged 32PPG on 46% shooting in 2002-2003, and won that scoring title. When T-Mac is on a team where he is the man and isn't forced to be playmaker, he flourishes. With Yao on the team now, and with a HIGHLY defensive minded coach, he doesn't have the kind of oppertunity LeBron has. Of course, he has a much higher chance of winning as long as he stays healthy, but in this case recent stats are a tad bit decieving.
"When i blow up i meant scoring". Okay then, and i'm saying that LEBRON CAN SCORE AS MUCH AS MCGRADY WHEN HE BLOWS UP. What is so hard to understand about that?And we're not talking about the '02-'03 McGrady. We're talking about the players NOW.
Then why would you bring up triple doubles?Yes, and it is unfair. Look at how different Kobe is without Shaq. With Shaq his numbers were down, for good reason. T-Mac is playing with Yao on a team where the coach hates scoring (they have been dismal when it comes to scoring past 2 years, like 88PPG). LeBron is playing on a team where he can do whatever he wants. He is expected to take the full load like T-Mac had to do those years in Orlando. That is why I use 2002-2003 T-Mac, as his team was comparable to LeBron's in terms of scoring and the fact that he needed to lead team by himself, He can still score at will, he proved that in 2004-2005. The first month and a half he averaged 20PPG due to totally different style of play with Yao, but rest of year he averaged 27-28PPG on better FG % and was best swingman in league.
Im the T-mac fan but im going to have to give it to Lebron because he is so good so early in his career. If T-mac had accomplished half of wat lebron accomplished this year he would have the edge in this debate and topic. Lebron is better but just a bit. T-mac is my favorite player still though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 27 2006, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Then why would you bring up triple doubles?Yes, and it is unfair. Look at how different Kobe is without Shaq. With Shaq his numbers were down, for good reason. T-Mac is playing with Yao on a team where the coach hates scoring (they have been dismal when it comes to scoring past 2 years, like 88PPG). LeBron is playing on a team where he can do whatever he wants. He is expected to take the full load like T-Mac had to do those years in Orlando. That is why I use 2002-2003 T-Mac, as his team was comparable to LeBron's in terms of scoring and the fact that he needed to lead team by himself, He can still score at will, he proved that in 2004-2005. The first month and a half he averaged 20PPG due to totally different style of play with Yao, but rest of year he averaged 27-28PPG on better FG % and was best swingman in league.</div>jesus f*cking christ, will you just get past the triple-doubles?!?!?! i just said it once you idiot.And Tracy McGrady's scoring ability has also gone down due to back injuries. He's not the same player he was. You can't use Yao or the system as a crutch. He is simply not as good of a scorer as he was in '02-'03. And LeBron may not have one other star, but he has alot of pretty good role players that can score. Zydrunas, Drew Gooden, Donyell Marshall, Larry Hughes (although he was injured most of this year). LeBron also shoot 8% better than Tracy. That's not even comparable. If TMac has another superstar on his team, he should atleast be more efficient.
You used it to try and prove a point, which is retarded, then having a hissy fit when I ask about it.They were down last year, but 2 years ago he was best swingman in league. First month and a half he was around 20PPG, which is understandable considering the past 3 years he had never played with a player anywhere near the caliber of Yao. Then you have the game plan which is focused strictly on defense. JVG did the same thing to Steve Francis, year before he came he was over 20PPG, when he came he was at 16PPG, then when Steve went to Orlando he was back to 20PPG. T-Mac shot so bad last year, as you said, due to injury. It was terrible last year, he had some good streaks (back to back 40pt games, few GW shots, some very good 30pt games) but when his back was acting up he was going 3-21. When he is healthy he is not like AI, he won't have FG % in low .400's. If he is healthy this year, he will be back to his normal numbers of 28/29PPG on 45-46% shooting.When Kobe was injured and under totally different offense and team in 2004-2005, he was only at 27PPG, 43% shooting, and over 4 TO's per game. Just goes to show when the team and players are different, and you're injured, stats go way down from usual.
I threw the hissy fit?? you were the one who brought up in about three different posts to stop talking about triple-doubles, and i only mentioned it ONCE.Why are you bringing up how Tracy's scoring went down with Yao? that was two years ago, he's gotten used to him by now.And you say he's playing worse bc injury. Why does it matter why? He's still playing bad, no matter which way you twist it. Back problems don't just go away either.And seriously, you bring up other players in every single argument you're in. Kobe's example was the complete opposite as TMac's. and how do you know 27 ppg wasn't normal and 35 ppg was just a break out?
Yes, he has, but he was hurt last year. He went through stretches, but right when he was out because of injury the 2-3 games leading up to that he played like crap. Otherwise he played pretty well, especially in the middle of the season when Yao, Sura, Juwan, and many other players were injured (5 straight games of over 33pts, got hurt, game back 12 days later and had a 35pt gam, back to back 40pt games, a 29pt game 2 games later, then he started playing god awful, Yao came back a few games later, they won like 14 out of 16, T-Mac went down for year, then team totally collpased). When T-Mac is fairly healthy, he can still score at will, but when both him and Yao are healthy, and in JVG's offense, it is much more of a balanced attack.Yes, he had a bad year, and superstar swingmen do. AI had his year 2 years back (played 48 games, 26PPG on 39% shooting, 4.4 TO's per), Pierce had THREE straight seasons of going way down (20PPG on 40 % shooting one year), Kobe had his in 2004-2005 before Lamar took over as playmaker and he was allowed to be pure scorer (which T-Mac isn't, he is playmaker), etc... T-Mac will be back next year, his back is feeling great and team is starting to get healthy with Yao and Sura healing great.And no, Kobe's example was VERY similar to T-Mac's. Of course T-Mac's was sort of spread out from the first month and a half of his first season and all of last season, but still similar. Difference is that T-Mac had to share spotlight while Kobe always gets greenlight, no matter the coach, to just go off due to no viable second option.
okay, you takled about the good stretch that TMac had. In those games, he scored about what LeBron AVERAGED in the season. So what you're saying is, in TMac's best stretch of the season, when he "blew up" was around what LeBron averaged for the year? so how are you saying that TMac is the better scorer?And like i said before, theire situations were literally the complete opposite. TMac went from a horrible team to a pretty good team with another established player. Kobe had a dynasty that broke up and left him with vertually nothing. Those are the EXACT opposites.
I repeat, once kobe recovered fom his ailments, he averaged 27-6-5 on 46% shooting. He was averaging roughly 7aspg before Hamblen took over and decided to change the teams offense.It's no coincidence that when kobe got healthy, his to's, freethrow and 3 point shooting percentages went up. Same ailment as duncan and we saw how he played once he was healthy.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ Jul 28 2006, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>okay, you takled about the good stretch that TMac had. In those games, he scored about what LeBron AVERAGED in the season. So what you're saying is, in TMac's best stretch of the season, when he "blew up" was around what LeBron averaged for the year? so how are you saying that TMac is the better scorer?And like i said before, theire situations were literally the complete opposite. TMac went from a horrible team to a pretty good team with another established player. Kobe had a dynasty that broke up and left him with vertually nothing. Those are the EXACT opposites.</div>He averaged more than 32 9 of those 12 games, some 40pt games, etc... I never said he blew up, but I said he played pretty well except for February and right before/after he was out for x amount of games. No, they weren't opposite. Yes, they were different, but very similar. New offenses, new coaches, injuries, new teammates, etc... And Kobe didn't play with "no one". He had Odom, Butler, and some good role players. And what do you expect, a player going from dynasty where he averaged great numbers going to a average team where he is the man and having one of his worst seasons or a player playing great for a few seasons that was on a below average team going to a very good team and having worse numbers? Of course #2, but the common thread is both had to suffer through brand new systems, coaches, and different offensive philosiphies and responsibilities.
okay, but IN HIS BEST STRETCH, he was getting LeBron's average numbers. Please, take off the blind fold."he averaged more than 32 9 of those 12 games" way to distort his stats. You didn't count the low games in the averaging.
I'm done with this dude, we're just not going to agree. But one thing: LeBron didn;t average well over 32PPG, in Mac's best stretch he was around 36-37PPG. But again, that just shows he can still score when healthy. He has had a really tough year, as do every swingman once or twice in their career. LeBron, before his career is over, will have a season plagued with injuries, new coaching, and all that crap and his numbers will be lower, it is just bound to happen, happens to everyone.PS- Would you say Nenad Krstic or Kenyon Marton better than Amare because Amare was out for what, 79 games this season and played badly when in? Of course not. You have to look at reality, and the fact that this was T-Mac's first season where the back was a consistent problem that really effected his game. I am not saying T-Mac is better overall, because he isn't, but as a scorer he has been paired with Yao who demands ball more than any player on the Cavs by far, a coach that looks down upon T-Mac like scoring (see: Steve Francis), and of course the injuries that plague him. I take that all into context, but realize the fact of the matte ris LeBron can be held somewhat in check, while with T-Mac that really isn't in your control and hope he has a terrible shooting game.
i'm not saying he's a better scorer just bc TMac is injured tho. He is the better scorer.And the Amare situation was different. He had a major surgery, not a nagging injury that will likely follow him for the rest of his career. His back problems are chronic, they won't just go away. He will continue to play on/off for the rest of his career.
Once again, that is debatable, and depends totally on what you look for in a scorer. I prefer greater versatility and the more dynamic scorer, even if that means risking a loss in efficiency. You prefer the less versatile scorer who is more efficient. Only problem with the latter I have is that zone defense can really slow down that player, while the only way to shut down the other player is get into his mind or hope he has a bad shooting night. It is all preference, let's leave it at that.As for T-Mac's injury, last year it was NOT his chronic problems that plagued him. It was another back problem that has since healed and he keeps rehabbing it. We shall see this upcoming season how that plays out.
i just don't see how you'd take the inconsistent guy over the more efficient and consistent guy. And you don't have to have less versatility to have more efficiency. Look at Paul Pierce. And LeBron can still hit from outside, you're acting like he's a dud from beyond 18 feet.
I take T-Mac over him because less defenses can stop T-Mac. LeBron is so much more consistent because he drives and takes the easier shots. That works inr egular season and against a crap defense like the Wizards, but against a good interior defense like San Antonio, Detroit, etc.. it just won't fly. Then he is forced to take outside jumpshots and is less efficient than T-Mac. The only things that can stop a T-Mac or Kobe is if a defender like Bruce Bowen gets in their minds or if they are concetrating on other things/injury (T-Mac this year had such a crap February because of personal problems that were well documented and of course his injury, Kobe was so bad in 2004-2005 because of injury, and in 2003-2004 he had the Colorado case). Otherwise, when they are their normal selves, they are close to impossible to defend. LeBron just quite isn't there yet due to his outside shooting still isn't great (it's good, not great).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 29 2006, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I take T-Mac over him because less defenses can stop T-Mac. LeBron is so much more consistent because he drives and takes the easier shots. That works inr egular season and against a crap defense like the Wizards, but against a good interior defense like San Antonio, Detroit, etc.. it just won't fly. Then he is forced to take outside jumpshots and is less efficient than T-Mac. The only things that can stop a T-Mac or Kobe is if a defender like Bruce Bowen gets in their minds or if they are concetrating on other things/injury (T-Mac this year had such a crap February because of personal problems that were well documented and of course his injury, Kobe was so bad in 2004-2005 because of injury, and in 2003-2004 he had the Colorado case). Otherwise, when they are their normal selves, they are close to impossible to defend. LeBron just quite isn't there yet due to his outside shooting still isn't great (it's good, not great).</div>That makes no sense at all. Less teams can stop tracy because he is an outside shooter? thats bullsh**. Percentages are better from the inside than the outside and Lebron can get to the basket at will. I dont see how its easier to stop Lebron....http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=241124005http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2005123105http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2006051905So much for the Pistons stopping LebronYou dont understand. You are saying that good defenses like the Pistons stop Lebron. And that is just not true at all. If you look at these 3 box scores(which are the only ones I found from the Pistons vs. Cavs from 2005), you will see that they couldnt stop Lebron. You can make the excuse that, detroit played good defense on him in the 2nd half of game 7, but its not like Tracy McGrady has bad games where he gets shut down either. If you disagree with me, I will show you some links where Tracy's so called "outside shooting", makes him a better scorer than lebron.
thank you. it's about time someone else stepped in. Nitro, you're just being a homer. Why else would you take an inconsistent scorer over a consistent one who even scores more at a higher percentage to begin with?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jul 30 2006, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That makes no sense at all. Less teams can stop tracy because he is an outside shooter? thats bullsh**. Percentages are better from the inside than the outside and Lebron can get to the basket at will. I dont see how its easier to stop Lebron....http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=241124005http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2005123105http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2006051905So much for the Pistons stopping LebronYou dont understand. You are saying that good defenses like the Pistons stop Lebron. And that is just not true at all. If you look at these 3 box scores(which are the only ones I found from the Pistons vs. Cavs from 2005), you will see that they couldnt stop Lebron. You can make the excuse that, detroit played good defense on him in the 2nd half of game 7, but its not like Tracy McGrady has bad games where he gets shut down either. If you disagree with me, I will show you some links where Tracy's so called "outside shooting", makes him a better scorer than lebron.</div>Bron averaged 26PPG on 44% shooting to go along with 6APG (less than average) and well over 4 TO's per game in the Pistons series. I am not saying good defenses can shutdown Bron, I am saying good interior defenses. The Pistons showed just how effective it was against LeBron. Go to next series vs Miami, Wade was scoring mostly all of his baskets off midrange jumpshots. He averaged 70% shooting because of that range and discipline not to jack up 3's when driving is very hard to come by. And no, Shaq didn't open up much at all as he was played straight up by Big Ben.T-Mac's outside shooting is just part of his arsenal, he's got a deadly midrange game (doesn't use it as much as when he was in Orlando), and because of his outside shooting and athletic ability, he is a great driver/slasher. That is what makes him pretty much unstoppable, along with Kobe, who is VERY similar in scoring style. Bron is also unstoppable if you don't have a great, and I mean great interior defense and good man to man defender. But when you get a Wade, Kobe or T-Mac that can stretch D out to 3pt line/20ft or so, everything is opened up and they have unlimited choices. The only things that stops them are off nights (which happens to a Kobe or T-Mac when they rely more on jumpshooting than driving to basket like Wade or Bron), injuries (which will slow down anyone), or if a defender has really gotten into their head (most star players in the league have a defender, usually Ron or Bruce, that does that to them). But in simplest terms, it is much easier to devise a defense to slow down a LeBron who still isn't a great shooter to a T-Mac or Kobe who are great slashers and shooters. See my point?nba dogmatist- If that logic were true, you think LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe? And you think wade is best scorer in league? C'mon. In the NBA versatility is key. Offensively, no one is more versatile than LeBron. But when it comes to strictly scoring, you really can't beat a T-Mac or Kobe.
