Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by SlyPokerDog, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. mobes23

    mobes23 Well-Known Member

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    He didn't even get there -- he opted out of the process before he could even be wronged. He chose not to defend.

    As an aside, the way sports organizations/leagues regulate their players is pretty draconian. Was Goodell's process fair/right in dealing with the Saints players? Fines and penalties in the NBA and NCAA (see Penn State) can also be pretty random/lacking in fair process. I actually agree that there is a lot not to like about USADA.

    So back on point, I don't believe a fighter like Armstrong would run from a fight, even a bully like USADA, if he is innocent. He would tackle it like he tackled the tours and tackled cancer.
     
  2. Masbee

    Masbee -- Rookie of the Year

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    well, the Federal Judge who heard Armstrong's case, more or less agreed that, yes, it is rigged and said that if the USADA wanted to "save" sports by destroying sports, there wasn't anything he could do about it.

    You are forgetting one factor, the "win" rate of local prosecutors against well funded, well supported defendants is MUCH lower than those headline election friendly rates which are jammed packed with defendants who have no means or ability to put on a quality defense.

    The USADA has its crazy high percentage of win rate against defendants that are not from the lower tiers of society.

    And if you think it IS NOT rigged, please, by all means, offer up the proof of how this process is run fairly as per the highest standards of jurisprudence practice (best practices). How is independence maintained among the various experts and officials and lawyers involved? What is the appeals process? Who does the USADA answer to for errors or failings?

    Yes, but if you don't bother to construct a system where truth is the highest priority, you are unlikely to get it right by design.

    I am sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

    Anybody can talk tough when they don't have a gun pointed to their head.

    If you KNEW that a fight was doomed, and there no way at all you could win the fight, you would spend months of your life wasted on that fight and untold money, for what?

    You don't sound very level headed. It is certainly an emotional response.

    Or, #3:

    Lance is guilty, and he knows the process is rigged. No point in continuing the fight when he has no chance of beating the rap.

    I think Lance has used PEDs.

    I think the process being used to attack him is corrupt.

    Both can exist at the same time.

    Because I don't fully agree with the aims of the USADA and don't agree at all with their process I would prefer a guilty man to beat the charges than to be railroaded in a corrupt system and process.
     
  3. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    WRONG

    Due process doesn't apply to the USADA. It does to an actual (relatively speaking) legitimate proceeding, such as being charged by the federal government with committing a crime. Why would one to continue to spend time, energy, and life fighting against a decision that has already been made, short of some sort of secretive show trial? The smart thing to do is to say fuck it, the feds have nothing on me, I never tested positive during a race, and I won the races.

    I'd do that even if I had used PEDs. I actually respect Armstrong even more now for telling the USADA to pound sand until they come up with a more transparent and honest process for determining guilt. I also laugh at the USADA for claiming to "strip" Armstrong of his seven Tour wins. They have literally zero authority to do so, and the UCI hasn't recognized them doing so. The fact that they thought they could do so should tell everyone just how out of touch that organization really is, if chasing ghosts from 13 years ago wasn't reason enough already.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2012
  4. mobes23

    mobes23 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting post Masbee...I won't respond to all because we're both two danged wordy lol

    - Leagues/organizing bodies like this have crazy power, their process can be haphazard and there is a lot not to like (just mentioned this in another post.) I'm not defending USADA itself of what it's done in the past. Just saying that there are plenty of other examples where leagues/sports organizations have exerted power in ways that are unlikeable, but the courts and society have let them regulate themselves. Again, I'm not saying it's the way it should be, just the way it is.

    - If he's innocent and fights the process, there's at least a chance he can sway (a) courts that he has been wrongly harmed and/or (b) the court of public opinion, either of which could potentially change that bad process. I'm all for good process that protects the innocent and maybe that would've resulted if he'd fought. I'll be surprised if USADA changes much at this point.

    - I'm level headed and not being over emotional. If I have the means to clear my name and my life's work, I'd take it on. I wouldn't leave me and my family bankrupt to do it, but otherwise, I would. It's not a gun that was pointed at Armstrong and he had time to think it all through. Unless he's guilty, he didn't KNOW that he'd lose. If he's innoncent, he'd be predisposed to think he could beat the odds. I'd be thinking that nothing would change if I opted out and that I had a responsibility to myself, my family, donators to my foundation, and my sport to try and make that change happen.
     
  5. The_Lillard_King

    The_Lillard_King Westside

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    Lance was doping like practically all bikers were during that time period.

    Not sure what charges DOJ can bring for someone doping. Don't think they can bring charges for someone using steroids. What the DOJ needs to prove a crime and what the USADA needs to prove to strip titles are two completely different things.

    Let's hope whatever system is being used that "eye witnesses" is still evidence that can be used . . . imagine if eye witness testimony wasn't allowed in rape cases.
     
  6. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Yeah. One requires actual proof, and the other relies on the words of disgraced (and jealous?) competitors.
     
  7. The_Lillard_King

    The_Lillard_King Westside

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    Well that is one twist on the situation
     
  8. mobes23

    mobes23 Well-Known Member

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    Were your panties similarly twisted when Goodell played God with the Saints players?
     
  9. 3RA1N1AC

    3RA1N1AC 00110110 00111001

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    eye witness testimony is kinda important

    if 10 people say that they saw me shoot you in the face, id probably go to jail without any other evidence
     
  10. Masbee

    Masbee -- Rookie of the Year

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    You keep repeating the same thing:

    If I was innocent I would fight to the bitter end to "prove" my innocence.

    But, you keep ignoring, if there was no chance you could succeed in proving your innocence you are just twisting at windmills and are a fool.

    And you mentioned Lance proving his innocence in "court". USADA does not have court. And there is no appeal to a higher court. And the USADA before the hearing started declared that Lance was Guilty. The verdict is preordained. Get it?
     
  11. mobes23

    mobes23 Well-Known Member

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    If I'm innocent, danged straight I'm going to think there is a chance and if I think there is a chance I will see it through to the end. I think our disagreement is that you think there was zero chance and I thought there was some chance that USADA process would give it a fair shot.

    Preordained? Are you absolutely sure about that or you just think that? I'm not an expert on their process, but I thought both sides presented arguments and testimony. Preordained means absolute certainty and I don't think it's accurate.

    So, yes, I guess I'm straight out of Dumb and Dumber lol.

    Lloyd: What do you think the chances are of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
    Mary: Well, Lloyd, that's difficult to say. I mean, we don't really...
    Lloyd: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
    Mary: Not good.
    Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
    Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
    [pause]
    Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance... *YEAH!*
     
  12. The_Lillard_King

    The_Lillard_King Westside

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  13. The_Lillard_King

    The_Lillard_King Westside

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    The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency on Wednesday released its evidence against Lance Armstrong – a massive dossier of more than 1,000 pages with sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 cyclists with knowledge of Armstrong's doping activities on the U.S. Postal Service Cycling team.

    The evidence includes testimony from cyclist George Hincapie, a longtime close associate of Armstrong's who on Wednesday admitted his role in the doping conspiracy and said he told investigators what he knew about others.

    "I would have been much more comfortable talking only about myself, but understood that I was obligated to tell the truth about everything I knew. So that is what I did," Hincapie's statement said.

    In a statement, USADA chief executive Travis Tygart said, "The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."


    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...a-reasoned-decision-teammates-doping/1624551/


    I see why he choose not to fight the findings . . .
     
  14. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    All testimony was bought with immunity (6 month suspension from the sport) for those who said what USADA wanted them to say. All who testified were already admitted liars and carry the same credibility as any jailhouse snitch.

    The USADA went after Armstrong only after the Federal government dropped it's extensive investigation of him due to finding no credible evidence at all.

    Whether he did or did not dope, only a coward would have anything to do with the USADA.
     
  15. The_Lillard_King

    The_Lillard_King Westside

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    I'm sure that is it. They got 15 teammates to all lie about Armstrong. They created bogus emails, bogus receipts and made 11 other people lied. Armstrong decided not to fight this huge conspiracy and try to save his name but instead allowed all this bogus testimony and evidence be unchallenged because it a fight he couldn't win. Even the best lawyers in America are unable to debunk a case that involves a conspiracy with 26 lying people and bogus documents.

    That must be the case . . . or, maybe this is a possibility:

    Hincapie's statement acknowledged that he had cheated.

    "Early in my professional career, it became clear to me that, given the widespread use of performance enhancing drugs by cyclists at the top of the profession, it was not possible to compete at the highest level without them. I deeply regret that choice and sincerely apologize to my family, teammates and fans," Hincapie wrote.


    What I find appalling is Lance is so self involved he will continue to call his ex-teamamtes and friends liars and paint then just as you have because he can't admit to what he did.
     
  16. 3RA1N1AC

    3RA1N1AC 00110110 00111001

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    everyone is a parody of themselves when you peel off the first layer of skin, and let the demons out
     
  17. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

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    Bullshit! I keep my demons out in the open for everyone to see.
     
  18. 3RA1N1AC

    3RA1N1AC 00110110 00111001

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    well, some people have thin skin
     
  19. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

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    I hate when you can see veins on a woman's boobs.
     
  20. 3RA1N1AC

    3RA1N1AC 00110110 00111001

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    those are the demons trying to come out
     

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