Greed and Debt: The True Story of Mitt Romney and Bain Capital

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by SlyPokerDog, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Right about PE, I misused the term. Another means of valuation of a company is some number times sales, and 10x is a reasonable guess here.

    The thing is, Bain still had every incentive to make their stock more valuable rather than raid the treasury of the company for significantly less money. In no way did Bain ever consider $100M on their $5M investment to be their exit strategy - they took the company public.

    http://www.businesssalecenter.com/new_page_3.htm

    Valuing a business based on sales

    In some industries, the norm is to determine value by using a multiplier times the firm’s annual sales. Consulting firms, radio stations, temp agencies, PR or ad agencies, professional practices, retailers and insurance brokers are often valued using a multiplier of annual sales. The multiplier depends on the exact type of business, the predictability of sales from year to year and many other factors. Generally, the industry multiplier is the starting point and is then adjusted based on specifics of the company. For example, the industry’s multiplier may be two times sales, but the firm has experienced strong, consistent growth in the past three years – that may boost the multiplier to 2.5 or higher. Or perhaps the firm has one client that makes up one-half of its billings – the higher perceived risk may drive the multiplier down to 1.5 or lower. If your business has low fixed costs, few assets and little retained earnings, the sales multiplier technique may be appropriate.

    (My note: Ampad's sales went from $100M when Bain bought them to $700M when the company had its IPO - that is quite a bit better than just "strong, consistent growth").
     
  2. 3RA1N1AC

    3RA1N1AC 00110110 00111001

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    ouch

    no worries though, nobody reads rolling stone
     
  3. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I think the money Bain made on the Ampad IPO is included in the $100 million.

    A 10x revenue multiple for a company like Ampad is pretty unrealistic.

    barfo
     
  4. The_Lillard_King

    The_Lillard_King Westside

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    Or at least the ones that read it don't vote
     
  5. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I looked around for the company's market cap or even number of outstanding shares to get a value for the stock. 10x is still a good guess, given their rapid and massive growth in sales through the IPO. They may have even gotten 10x TTM revenue.
     
  6. maxiep

    maxiep RIP Dr. Jack

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    What's amazing to me is how little understanding there is about the field of venture capital. They're lumping in what Bain Capital does with what firms like KKR and guys like Carl Icahn did in the 1980s. It's just lazy. The entire Bain model is based on using their management and strategy expertise to grow or turn around companies. That's the Bain value proposition.

    Here's the sad fact: many of these firms that went bankrupt under Bain had their corporate lives extended by the very firm against which thei former employees rail. And like it or not, a VC firm's first responsibility is to their shareholders. The best case scenario is to make money through growing the company's market share. If they make a bad bet, however, they have a fiduciary responsibility to protect the initial investment or try to make as much money from the liquidaton as possible.
     
  7. mobes23

    mobes23 Well-Known Member

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    In my mind, there's a pretty big difference between venture capital funds and hedge funds (and for that matter LBO deals.) Bain Capital definitely is outside the scope of being a VC. Venture funds generally are much more focused on earlier stage companies that are pre-IPO, growth companies. They may make exceptions and invest later stage, but that's not their bread and butter.

    Honestly, the way the deals described in the article where described, LBO pretty well nails it. That said, I'm no Bain expert, but I'm guessing they made plenty of deals that were different than those and it's possible (likely?) that the descriptions weren't perfect. If they invest enough in a company, funds (whether hedge or VC) will usually have a couple board seats, but they won't have so much control over the executive positions. From what I've heard, Bain took a much more active approach in the mgmt of those companies.
     
  8. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    The venture firms I've dealt with offer seed capital, advice, management personnel, take board seats, etc. They also assist in further fundraising efforts.

    And no VC is going to give some company money if there is no plan to use it. Quite often the plan involves M&As, and M&As often end up with the acquiring company assuming the debt of the acquired company. In fact, a $100M purchase of a company might be $10M in cash and assumption of $90M in debt.

    Goldman Sachs has been one of the premier banks taking companies IPO, and its also a venture capital (private equity) firm.

    FWIW
     
  9. mobes23

    mobes23 Well-Known Member

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    There's a big difference between board seats and advice than there is providing mgmt personnel. VC funds don't really do that...and I've worked with a lot of them...they may refer good candidates to companies, but hiring is much more the company's call. GS is not a VC -- it's an investment bank. They underwrite IPOs, but they are not known generally known as a VC. They may have a VC branch, but again, it's not their bread and butter. I just looked at the Bain website and they have a VC branch of the business, but from my understanding of Mitt's background, that was not at all his focus.

    Obviously VCs don't throw their money around willy nilly, but the best ones invest in the mgmt team alongside the technology. You can't have one without the other and be successful.
     
  10. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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  11. mobes23

    mobes23 Well-Known Member

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    Private equity is not really the same as venture capital, Denny.
     
  12. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Bain didn't have a venture capital arm in 1999 when Romney left.

    They did have the PE division.
     
  13. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    http://www.baincapital.com/about-bain-capital

    Bain Capital Milestones

    1984 – Founding of Bain Capital

    1996 – Founding of Brookside Capital Partners

    1998 – Founding of Sankaty Advisors

    2000 – Founding of Bain Capital Ventures

    2004 – Founding of Absolute Return Capital Partners
     
  14. mobes23

    mobes23 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I think it's inaccurate to describe any of what Romney accomplished at Bain as being in the venture capital world. I'm biased because that's the area where I work, but I pretty much love venture/startup companies...it's old school capitalism with a technology twist. True entrepreneurism. A person with an idea, sacrificing to build a company. It's good stuff. The American dream. Not to say Bain Capital hasn't possibly done some good in the world, but it has a different model than the VC model.

    Private equity tends to be more about LBO type deals (though admittedly not always) and VCs are more about starting companies from scratch. They both have their place, but VCs a generally more likeable in what they do...although they too can be a pain in the ass.

    As far as the firing CEO story goes, it can happen for sure, but it's never part of the deal when a financing closes. I've seen CEOs shown the door after the company has underperformed, but it takes awhile before that happens. Interestingly enough, Tom Baruch who is quoted in the story was on the board of one of my clients and the CEO was eventually shown the door by that board. In LBOs, it'll happen simultaneously with or soon after the deal closes. It's a different dynamic.
     

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