19. Rashad McCantz4. nba dogmatistDate ended: Thursday August 17thTopic: Are the Knicks better off with Isiah Thomas or Larry Brown as there head coach?Rules: Keep it clean, No need to throw put instults and harmful remarks. You guys can just go at it unti the due date, Debate like crazy. If you both agree with the topic, See if you can prove your opponents points wrong, If you agree to the extent where there is nothing to debate about, Then say something and we will get you a new topic.Good luck.
I'm gonna say Isiah Thomas.First of all, he picked the players, so he knows his own vision of what he wants to do with them. Brown tried to make them play his way and his way only, not what their talents allowed them to do. The team did not fit the style at all. It also seems like Marbury, the supposed leader of this team (ouch), likes Thomas much more than Brown. He mentioned that he wanted Thomas to be the coach in the first place. He's probably just kissing ass, but it's a better situation for everyone if they can get some form of chemistry going.Also, Larry Brown did a HORRIBLE job at keeping a consistent rotation. I think he had around 40+ different starting line-ups. That's just disgraceful. He needed to pick 8-9 guys and stick with them, instead of changing it up every game. There is no way players can develop any form of consistency when they never play with the same guys at the same time on the court. Brown was also notorious for never putting his young players in the game, which also hurt the knicks. Guys like Nate Robinson and Channing Frye were really doing good for the team, but if they made one rookie mistake, they were yanked. That's not a good thing to do as a coach. Players will play less timid if they are afraid of making a mistake. It happens all the time. Nate Robinson was a spark plug and he actually played defense, but Larry Brown wasn't willing to play him consistently because he didn't have enough experience.I'm not sure how good of an X's and O's guy Thomas is, but He built this team, he should know what to do with them. He obviously had something going on in his head about what his vision of these players on the court was going to be. He knows his team best, and he won't make them play a style that doesn't fit. I say the Knicks take a (small) step forward this year.
I'll have to go with Larry Brown over Isiah Thomas on this one.Larry Brown is one of the greatest coaches in the history of the NBA and it was not Brown's fault that the Knicks finished with the second worst record in the league(23-59). It was not Larry Brown's decision to trade Michael Sweetney,Tyrus Thomas, and next years pick to the Chicago Bulls for Eddy Curry. That trade was a gamble because of Eddy Curry's terrible work ethic and his conditioning problem and it has turned out to be a terrible move on Isiah's part.I have witnessed Curry's work ethic because he attends the same fitness center I do and he usually goes once a week to work out. Well his meaning and my meaning of working out don't match because while he lifts, he fools around with his buddies and doesn't seem to take anything seriously. He brings about fifteen friends with him every time he comes and they block off the court and play pick up games. Unfortunatley, Curry cherry picks, shoots three pointers, and runs out of breath very quickly and seems to not take the NBA seriously,as does Isiah Thomas.Every NBA fan has questioned Isiah's plan and as of now, the Isiah Thomas plan has been a disaster and has not helped the Knicks at all. Isiah Thomas believes that bringing in star players who all need the ball to be productive will help the Knicks win.Thomas has brought in Steve Francis ,Jalen Rose ,Jamal Crawford ,Eddy Curry, and Quentin Richardson who all require the ball to be productive. His plan is ridiculous and Thomas is a soft coach,who isn't strict enough and doesn't have the right mentality to toughen his players up and make them understand their roles. Isiah doesn't understand what his own plan is meant to accomplish and if Isiah can't handle the responsibility of gathering a roster then I don't understand how he can handle the management and coach the team at the same time.Isiah passed up on Marcus Williams to draft Renaldo Balkman who has not proven himself while Marcus Williams led the NCAA in assists per game. "Coach Thomas," has made many gambles and unfortunatley they have not paid off. Larry Brown brings something to the table that Knicks are in need of. He brings toughness,experience, and the right attitude to coach the Knicks. Yes, Larry changed the lineup many times last season but there was a reason. The players that the Knicks had were obviously not right for this team and Brown was forced to do what any coach would do in this situation...change the lineup up and see if you can make something happen. It wasn't as if Larry Brown found the right lineup and continued to change the roster around for no reason.Larry Brown is the more experienced coach and has a great history and just needs something to work with. Brown is a great coach but you also need the right players to be a great team and Isiah should have gathered some role players instead of bringing in more guys who are selfish and need the ball to be productive. In Detroit, he had a starting five that were great,solid players that understood their roles and Isiah should have built similar to what Joe Dumars had built with the Pistons back when they won the championship. Firing Brown and replacing him with Isiah Thomas was a huge mistake because he is not strict enough and won't be able to get his players to cooperate and start moving the ball around. Isiah Thomas will let his team do whatever they desire and therefore, the New York Knicks will finish in last place in the league,which will lead to the Chicago Bulls will landing Greg Oden and the Eddy Curry trade will go down as the worst trade in history.Isiah Thomas is lost, and it's not Larry Brown's fault.
I don't know what eddy curry's work ethic has to do with any of this.And you keep mentioning how bad of a GM idiah Thomas is. We all know he's horrible, but that will convey nothing about his coaching skills. Thomas won't preach things to his players that he knows they won't listen to. He built the team and he should know how to bring out the best of them.I'm not sure if anyone could've done a worse job than Brown this past year. He has all the talent in the world, yet he can't bring them together to win more than 23 games. I know part of this is the players' faults, but alot of it can be placed on the coach. He had over 40 starting line-ups for christ's sake! there's no way a player can develop any type of consistency if they don't even get consistent time. Example: Nate Robinson has a stretch of 8 straight DNP-CD's, only to be the sixth man the following game. Frye was in and out of the starting line-up. Brown was reluctant to play two of the only hard working, hustle players the Knicks had (Robinson and Frye) all bc they made rookie mistakes.And honestly, how could the Knicks possibly do worse this year?And if Larry Brown is such a great coach, then why does he need a "great team" to succeed?
Well the Eddy Curry issue relates to how Isiah Thomas cannot get into the heads of his players. Thomas has been the Knick's coach this whole summer, but yet has not gotten Eddy Curry to get into shape. Isiah Thomas is not strict enough and has not gotten Eddy Curry into the right mind set and Eddy Curry's terrible work ethic can be placed on Isiah Thomas.Isiah Thomas is still the New York Knick's general manager and if he cannot assemble the team and take on the responsibility of being a good gm then I don't believe he can take the responsibility of being a good coach. He built the team and he should know how to bring out the best of them?...well I've seen Eddy Curry about ten times this summer and every time he works out or plays games with his buddies he always seems to take basketball and getting into shape as a joke...that doesn't seem like Isiahs getting the best out of Curry because he'll never be a dominant center until he improves his conditioning and his work ethic. He built this team around ball hogs, how is he supposed to get the best out of his players if he lets them do whatever they want. You stated that Isiah will allow his players to play the way they like to play but he doesn't have the attitude to convert Marbury,Richardson,Francis,Rose, and Crawfowrd into playmakers which is something Larry Brown can do in a full season of play. You have to remember that early in Allen Iverson's career he was strictly a scorer but Larry Brown developed Iverson into one of the best playmakers and passers in the game today.Channing Frye was in and out of the starting lineup because of injuries but otherwise Channing Frye really developed into a complete player under Larry Brown. With Nate Robinson, you have to remember that Thomas brought Steve Francis into the Knicks orginization during the season and Brown wasn't going to bench Marbury,Francis, or Crawford(proven veterans and all stars)for an inexperienced and incosistent Nate Robinson.Larry Brown doesn't need a great team to succeed. The Pistons were 52-30 under Rick Carlisle the year before Larry Brown took over and later won the championship. 52-30 is not that "great" but under Larry Brown they finished 54-28,second in the East, and under Larry Brown's system they set a record and kept 5 straight opponents under 70 points per game. That was the season where they had Okur,Barry,Williamson, and Cliff Robinson departure and Larry Brown still made them the NBA champions. You make a point about how Larry Brown doesn't play his younger talent but somehow Brown took an unproven Tayshaun Prince and made him into a star and defensive stopper.You can say all you want about last season which was full of drama, and terrible additions to the roster but Larry Brown is the much better choice for the Pistons and if he was given one more year, with this squad,(without Isiah making ten roster changes again) Larry Brown could really shape up this team and make them much better than Isiah can.
okay, first of all, you say Curry goes' to YOUR gym, you live in Chicago. Thomas is not responsible for players working out over the summer when they are a few hundred miles away. That is all Curry's fault.I didn't mean let them do whatever they want, but Thomas will lengthen the leash and let players do what they do best. He will let them run instead of chaining them down in a slower system.When Brown was coaching the Sixers, Iverson was almsot strictly a scorer, he's been having career assist numbers in the past two years, under Jim O'Brien and Mo Cheeks.Channing Frye was realatively healthy for most of the year. he missed about the last month with a shin injury or something. I remember several times where MALIK ROSE started over him when Frye was fully healthy. That just doesn't make any sense.Steve Francis was brought in late in the season, Robinson's stretch of DNP-CD's was before that. Robinson was the back-up point guard, Crawford plays SG. In fact, later on, Brown STARTED with Nate Robinson and Stephon Marbury in the backcourt.you mentioned the Pistons 52-30 team as if they were nothing compared to the team that one TWO more games. If you remember, Detroit also acquired Rasheed Wallace, who could arguably have been named the Pistons' best player that year, for close to nothing at all. That was an EXTREMELY talented and determined team. Did you also notice how they won 64 games the next year with a different coach?!
Yes, Eddy Curry goes to my gym and I've seen him work out about ten times this summer. How can you not place the blame on Isiah Thomas with Eddy Curry's work ethic. A coach's job is to make sure his players get into shape and get the conditioning they're needed. I'm sure Curry has seen Thomas a couple times this offseason and appearantly, Isiah has done nothing to improve Curry's conditioning and defense.He will let them run instead of chaining them down in a slower system? You cannot let the New York Knicks run because their team is not assembled correctly!!! Eddy Curry and Jerome James cannot run this type of offense because they're half court players and this offense will not work. If you want to run you must assemble you're team around big men who can run the fast break offense similar to what the Phoenix Suns have done with Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw. Steve Francis,Stephon Marbury,Jamal Crawford,Renaldo Balkman, and Nate Robinson would love to run a fast break offense but unfortunatley, Isiah Thomas has no idea what he's building this team around. He's gathered a bunch of guards who would love to run the fast break offense and not set up in the half court game but the big men must fit into the offense too. Eddy Curry and Jerome James cannot run the fast break offense which proves my point of Isiah not understanding what he's built his own team around.When Larry Brown came into the Philadelphia 76'ers orginization, Allen Iverson averaged around four assists per contest...which is terrible for a guard his height and speed. Larry Brown was able to turn Allen Iverson into a six assist per game player and a play maker and led the 76'ers to the Finals with Allen Iverson and an aging Dikemebe Mutumbo.You bring up the point that there were some games that Malik Rose started over Channing Frye. Well what do you expect, starting Channing Frye wasn't getting the Knick's wins so Larry Brown was trying to mix and match and work with what he had. Same goes with Nate Robinson, there were games Nate didn't play because Brown was trying to mix and match and get some sort of starting lineup that could produce wins. Larry Brown wasn't supposed to just sit there and do nothing, he did what any coach would do in that situation...he shuffled the lineup numerous times to see if he can make something happened with the roster he was given.Yes, I do notice that they won sixty-four games with Flip Saunders because Flip turned the Pistons into an offensive minded team which wins more games during the regular season but Larry had turned the Pistons into a defensive minded team. The 2006 Detroit Pistons struggled to stop the Cavaliers and the Miami Heat late in the fourth quarter and they simply couldn't shut down the opposing team..under coach Larry Brown the Pistons were able to succeed during the playoffs because they were able to get stops when they needed them most.Offense wins regular season games, but DEFENSE wins championships
The coaches job is to make sure all his players are working out during the summer? are you kidding? Its up to the players themselves to work out over the summer. ESPECIALLY when they are in a different state!The knicks have plenty of players that can play in a fast break system. Stephon MSteve Francis, Nate Robinson, Jamal Crawford, Quentin Richardson, Channing Frye were MADE to play in an uptempo system. I understand Curry is out of shape, but they don't have to play slow when he's out. and don't even bring up Jerome James, he hardly ever plays.we're getting side tracked, but AI's 4 apg are not that bad compared to the 6 apg he got when Brown was head coach. How do we know that Iverson didn't just make adjustments/improvements on his own? bc his assists rose again when Brown left.Brown may have been trying to "mix it up", but even then, you shouldn't have 8 straight DNP-CD's, then start a few games later. That's not good for the players. There's a difference in trying a few new things compared to changing up the line-up almost every game.First of all, when the Pistons won the championship, they were lucky to get out of the ECF's, as BOTH Shaq and DWade missed games in that series. That is how they were able to supposedly stop the heat, bc they were shorthanded. Also, the Pistons were still somewhat of a sleeper then. This year coming in, everyone expected the Pistons to breeze through the playoffs, which ended up hurting them in the end."Offense wins regular season games, but DEFENSE wins championships" What does that have to with anything? get back on topic.
"The coaches job is to make sure all his players are working out during the summer?"I never said that so stop trying to change what I put...I clearly said"A coach's job is to make sure his players get into shape and get the conditioning they're needed." Eddy Curry is working out, he's just not doing it effectively or like he actually cares about it and Isiah's job is to get Curry into the right mentality and make him understand that the NBA is not all fun and games.The Knicks have plenty of players that can run the fast break offense...well in the NBA plenty is not enough. You cannot have one half of your team running the fast break offense and the other half being set up players. Stephon Marbury,Steve Francis,Jalen Rose,Jamal Crawford,Quentin Richardson and Renaldo Balkman are all fast break up-tempo players but Eddy Curry,Malik Rose,Maurice Taylor,Channing Frye, and Jerome James(The Big Men) are meant to play the half court game and cannot be effective in the fast break game. If you want to be a good running team and a fast break team you must build your WHOLE team around guards,forwards and centers who can all run that type of offense. Just look at the Phoenix Suns, the most efficient fast break team in the league,their whole team is built around fast break type of players and it's not only their guards who can run that type of offense but Amare Stoudemire,Boris Diaw, and Kurt Thomas can all run that type of style which makes them a great team. Like I've stated previously, Isiah Thomas has no idea what he has built this team around and is lost and confused about his own plan.Robinson had some DNP becuase he was very inconsistent during the season and sometimes didn't perform when he had the chance to make something happen. Nate Robinson also made some rookie mistakes during the season where he shot the basketball at the wrong time or in the wrong situation. Larry Brown did the best he could to make everybody happy and active and when you have so many egos on the roster that all need playing time and you only get so many minutes to work with per game and you can only fit that many players in to play during a game. Brown did a great job keeping everybody happy and he had Richardson,Rose,Marbury,Francis,Woods, and Robinson and getting everybody active and happy is very difficult when your general manager builds a team around egos and players who all need the ball to be effective.nba dogmatist-"First of all, when the Pistons won the championship, they were lucky to get out of the ECF's, as BOTH Shaq and DWade missed games in that series."What are you talking about,get your facts straight...the year the Pistons won the championship Shaquille O'neal was on the Los Angeles Lakers and Dwyane Wade and the Miami Heat lost in the second round to the Indiana Pacers. The Detroit Pistons beat the Milwuakee Bucks in the first round,beat the New Jersey Nets(Who had made the NBA Finals the two previous years) in seven games, and then later on went on to beat the Indiana Pacers in the Eastern Conference Championship. That is where the Detroit Pistons dominated and upset Shaquille O'neal,Kobe Bryant,Karl Malone,Gary Payton and the Los Angeles Lakers in and went on to win the NBA championship in five games."Offense wins regular season games, but DEFENSE wins championships" What does that have to with anything? get back on topic.That is me stating on how Larry Brown can get his teams to play according to the way they're assembled and you stating that Flip Saunders won sixty-four games with the Pistons. It didn't matter that Flip Saunders took the team to their best record in franchise history because only Larry Brown could get them through the playoffs and make them world champions. Larry Brown made the Pistons a defensive minded team and that's because he had the great coaching ability to do just that...he made Richard Hamilton and Chauncey Billups(two offensive minded players) into lock down defenders and turned Tayshaun Prince into a rising star and one of the best defensive players in the league. Larry Brown has proven himself over and over again but he just needs some time to work with his teams.It took him a couple years before he took the 76'ers into the NBA finals. Isiah Thomas just never gave Larry Brown a real chance at turning the New York Knicks around.
The head coach is NOT responsible for players working out during the summer. period. That is UP TO THE PLAYERS. and you could say the same thing last summer. Eddy Curry was out of shape at the beginning of last season too. is that Brown's fault?Larry Brown chained that team down into a system they couldn't play in. They don't have ro run, run, run to be effective, but they aren't going to just swing the ball around in eat up 20 seconds of the shot clock. Although his team was the virtual opposite of what the system was supposed to be run by, Brown forced the system on the players, and it obviously didn't work. That's called bad coaching. The offense should adapt to the players, not vice versa.Nate was fairly consistent for a rookie, and like you said, the knicks weren't winning either way, so why would he keep nate out of the line-up for so long? Brown kept everyone happy? oh please, he did the opposite. It was a completely miserable situation in New York.okay, okay. my bad, i just had a little mix up. but the second part of that argument still goes. Detroit was a sleeper, and they were determined, and talented enough to get the job done.Larry Brown "made them champions"?? oh please. That team was loaded with talent and had the right mind-set. Brown's system just happened to fit them perfectly. Larry Brown did not make them defensive minded, they already were. Carlisle preaches the same thing: slow it down and play defense. That team was already playing like that. Brown ESPECIALLY didn't make Prince a rising star. He is notorious for keeping young players at the end of his bench. he is horrible at developing young talent. I would hardly call Prince a rising star anyways.
If Rashadz McCantz acknowledges/agrees that he is done debating, I will go ahead and post my judgement.
WTF????Why do my posts in this thread keep getting deleted, first I answered a debate,long debate and got deleted and then I made another post andit got deleted. :ranting:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Aug 18 2006, 03:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>WTF????Why do my posts in this thread keep getting deleted, first I answered a debate,long debate and got deleted and then I made another post andit got deleted. :ranting:</div>Hm, that is very odd. Do you remember when you made the posts? There was a server problem yesterday and quite a few posts have been deleted somehow (according to others)... that may have caused the problem.
I made my original post the 16th with my debate paragraphs and then made my post about how my debate got deleted yesterday night. I had 300 posts a very long time ago and I've had more than 300 and somehow I have 301 right now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Aug 18 2006, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I made my original post the 16th with my debate paragraphs and then made my post about how my debate got deleted yesterday night. I had 300 posts a very long time ago and I've had more than 300 and somehow I have 301 right now. </div>Yeah, it seems a lot of posts from the 16th have disappeared...
Wow, absolutely wow. This was by far the closest first-round debate in which both participants actually disagreed with one another, and is easily the toughest for me to judge.Both of you guys made excellent points, but I think there were a lot of points left out by both of you that would have helped you make your argument stronger and made your opponents' argument weaker. I cannot tell you how many times I was tempted to reply in the middle of this debate.Anyway, as I said before, this was REALLY hard for me to judge, but in the end I have to go with Rashad McCantz. I simply agreed with his stance that Larry Brown is better off for the Knicks as their head coach. The Knicks just didn't do their homework on Brown's history, and a franchise with such inconsistency and impatience is just screwing themselves over more and more by making all these changes every year.Winner: Rashad McCantzWe need to get another judge (maybe two more) to judge this debate before determining who will go on to the next round. Dogma obviously will not be allowed to judge this debate since he is participating in it.
Thanks BigMo, anyways I could have replied to his debate with many strong points but my post got deleted so I had to move on with it. This really wasn't a great topic for me and the Knicks are one of my weaker teams that I know about, no matter what topic comes up next I want to say I'm going to be ready for anyone that faces me next.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Aug 20 2006, 03:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thanks BigMo, anyways I could have replied to his debate with many strong points but my post got deleted so I had to move on with it. This really wasn't a great topic for me and the Knicks are one of my weaker teams that I know about, no matter what topic comes up next I want to say I'm going to be ready for anyone that faces me next.</div>You are not in the next round yet. We still need another judge to post what he thinks...
