The players signed up for his abuse. The things he did that crossed the line, IMO, were any racist or other hate speech type epithets. As far as the WikiPedia entry, it refers to a scholarly study. A lot more than you make it out to be. There's plenty more. http://www.observertoday.com/page/content.detail/id/538632/Is-there-a-case-for-hazing.html There are two main arguments for hazing. First, some defenders of hazing argue that it doesn't wrong new members because they gave informed consent. The notion that you can't be wronged by treatment to which you consented is widely accepted and used to explain why sex, wrestling, and surgery are not objectionable. The second argument is that hazing is permissible because it is the best way to bring about desirable results. Proponents argue that hazing ensures that members are committed to their organization and each other, encourages bonding, and fosters a sense of exclusivity. Together these changes strengthen friendships and a sense of identification and pride in the group. Consider, for example, the commitment to each other, sense of brotherhood, and pride in their group found in Navy Seals, Green Berets, and Marines. This is likely due in no small part to the hellish training they go through. Allan and Madden's study provide some support for this beneficial-results view. They found that more students perceive positive than negative outcomes of hazing. In addition, a significant number (31 percent) said it made them feel more like a part of the group. Even if this support is weak, and it is hardly overwhelming, the side claiming that a voluntary practice is on the whole destructive and should be prohibited bears the burden of establishing its claim. Anecdotes, including a few horror stories, do not meet this burden. ... Despite the long history of hazing, prosecutors, military leaders, and campus administrators are trying to get rid of it. The arguments for doing so are unconvincing. Stephen Kershnar is a Fredonia State philosophy professor. Send comments to editorial@observertoday.com
I think you have a point that people get a stronger sense of unity through hardship. However, it's quite easy to put people through a brutal rite of passage to get at that sense of achievement without assaulting them or psychologically abusing them. Make everybody run laps forever or practice drills for a ridiculous amount of time. Something that actually relates to the sport you are trying to teach. It becomes a positive achievement that builds unity while also building cardio and related skills. Players can plainly see the point of the hardship. It makes sense. Shoving, name-calling, beaning people with balls....are you trying to teach your players to be assholes on the court? Seems like a great way to get lots of technicals.
Shoving, name-calling, etc., hasn't at all proven to make players assholes on the court or get lots of technicals. In the case of Indiana, or Ohio State (Woody Hayes), it made great teams and players.
What works in one place doesn't mean it will work in another. As I said before: Even if it is his "tactic", it is but one type of tactic and there are plenty of other coaches out there that don't use this particular tactic (or at least to this extreme) yet still win.
His tactics didn't work well because he didn't have the emotional maturity to use them as a teaching method instead of an excuse to be a bully.
We can't sit here and say they would have worked on "this" specific group of young men even if the coach has the emotional maturity to not be a idiot.
What is to say they would not have been great without the nonsense? Also, did it make these kids better people? In the case of Knight, it created one huge asshole.
You can always say "coulda, shoulda, woulda." I look at the record and say his methods didn't produce. And in my opening post about this, I said I don't condone what he did. All I'm saying is that it's being overblown.
A few things Denny, his players signed up for Basketball, and unless they were informed ahead of time that they would be called ***ot and have balls thrown at them, and be kicked, then they did not sign up for this abuse. There are hundreds of other college bball programs around the nation and I do not know of any others that act in this way, so how should the players know that this is what they are signing up for. Also, most of them are on scholarships, and they signed up to play bball in exchange for free tuition. You are suggesting that part of getting a scholarship is being willing to repeatedly be bullied and called derogatory names? That being said, I don't think this is the worst thing in the world, I think the appropriate course of action is to fire him and change the culture of the basketball team. I do not think Rice jr is the worst guy in the world, or that he should go to jail, or that he should be ostracized. He made a long series of idiotic actions. Meanwhile, I say his last interview and thought it was one of the best straight apologies i have heard in the media. He seemed regretful and sincere. For me, the issue needs not go anywhere. I hope he is able to find another career path, as I don't think there will be many programs looking to hire him.
I think players who agree to go to the university knew what his program was like. http://www.policymic.com/articles/32645/a-rutgers-student-s-response-to-the-mike-rice-firing A Rutgers Student's Response to the Mike Rice Firing Over my three years at Rutgers, the university has experienced a number of crises both athletic and non-athletic. The first few weeks of my freshman year was characterized by the suicide of my fellow classmate Tyler Clementi. Only one month later, I witnessed Eric LeGrand’s paralyzing injury in Metlife Stadium while a part of the marching band. This most recent incident with Mike Rice’s abusive tendencies as coach of Rutgers only adds to the negative press that the university has received in recent years. When Mike Rice was announced as the new Rutgers head basketball coach prior to the beginning of my freshman year I was absolutely ecstatic. The basketball program was struggling considerably and Coach Rice seemed as if he would be the right fit for the job. Fresh off an incredible performance against No. 2 seed Villanova during the 2010 NCAA tournament as head coach of an up-and-coming Robert Morris squad, Rice brought hope for the Rutgers basketball faithful that we would finally see performances that were comparable to our Big East rivals. Flashes of this renewed energy in Rutgers basketball were incredibly evident in 2011 and 2012. Rutgers stunned the 10th ranked Villanova Wildcats with a 4-point play at the buzzer, showing the Scarlet Knight fan base that Coach Rice was bringing promise to the basketball program. In 2012, Rutgers once again showed its upset prowess when the Scarlet Knights defeated the 10th ranked Florida Gators, providing me my first opportunity to storm the court in celebration. Two short weeks later, Rutgers defeated the 8th ranked UConn Huskies, where I once again witnessed a greater resurgence of Scarlet Knight basketball. Amid all the tweets, news stories, and commentary on Rice, it is easy to portray him as purely abusive and an overall terrible influence. What is conveniently left out of the media coverage is the chest bumps, the high fives, the Mike Rice that would jump around like a little kid when these upsets would happen. The Mike Rice that actively participated in pregame warm-ups by setting up passes for players in the lay up line, and did not just stand idly as his players worked. Mike Rice the teacher, the mentor, and the coach are left out of this equation. Is Coach Rice’s conduct or homophobic slurs during practice acceptable? Absolutely not, nor am I trying to justify it. Rather, I believe it is prudent to provide this perspective on what Mike Rice brought to a Rutgers program that had no other place other than the cellar of the Big East conference. Rice made Rutgers basketball fun to watch and his commitment and dedication to the program cannot just be swept away as a result of the media coverage. It is unfortunate that Rice has to be the poster child for the potential reformation of coach behavior towards athletes. Junior Wally Judge on the Rutgers basketball team, who transferred from Kansas State, remarked that Wildcats coach Frank Martin’s practices were harder and worse than Rice’s. It is irresponsible to cast out Mike Rice as the sole employer of such tactics during practices. This is a cultural occurrence in sports that needs to be addressed on a broader level and Mike Rice should not be the only victim of such a crackdown. In the end, it will be the Rutgers University athletic program that will be affected the most. With Rutgers shifting to the Big 10 in 2014, the university must get its act together starting with the athletic director Tim Pernetti. If Rutgers can get past this crisis, the future holds a lot of potential for the Scarlet Knights and hopefully this promise will not be squandered.
http://todaynews.today.com/_news/20...-defend-fired-basketball-coach-mike-rice?lite Rutgers players defend fired basketball coach Mike Rice Current and former Rutgers University basketball players are coming to the defense of fired head coach Mike Rice as the school continues to deal with the shock surrounding his dismissal. The players say the explosive videos showing Rice shoving, grabbing and berating players with gay slurs do not give the full picture of all the characteristics of his coaching style. “They also don’t account for all the other things that go on in our program,” player Austin Johnson told TODAY’s Natalie Morales, herself a Rutgers alumna. “Coach Rice has done a lot for me and my family.” During a visit to her alma mater, Morales spoke with other students on campus about the fiery behavior that led to Rice’s firing Wednesday as the Scarlet Knights head coach. Rice has since apologized, saying in a statement that “I clearly did not treat these outstanding young men ... with the respect they deserve." Sean Bannon, a former basketball player, said he never felt endangered while working with Rice. “Not at all, and I think the large majority of the players felt the exact same way I did,” he said. “I don’t think we were ever really uncomfortable or felt threatened.”
http://blogs.post-gazette.com/sports/the-bobs-blog/37553-former-rmu-players-defend-mike-rice Former RMU Players Defend Mike Rice (FWIW)
Nowhere did it say the players knew ahead of time what they were in for. Because they didn't. No coach is going to tell a prospect that he will be calling them homophobic slurs or throwing balls at their heads. Also, there is the line I bolded where the student is saying he does not condone the actions. and then the part that you bolded "It is irresponsible to cast out Mike Rice as the sole employer of such tactics during practices. This is a cultural occurrence in sports that needs to be addressed on a broader level and Mike Rice should not be the only victim of such a crackdown." This shows that others are guilty too, and that Rice should not be the only one affected by the crackdown, it does not say that Rice should not be affected by the crackdown. Also, you are pulling up individual accounts of Rice's coaching, but unless you are able to show that 100% of the students stood behind Rice, I really don't think it matters or that it demonstrates that the players knew what they were signing up for. You have not shown a single case where a player said that they knew that they were going to be in this environment at Rutgers. And, if there is just one player, perhaps the "Lithuanian ***got", who was gay and had to endure this repeated harassment at a school, that's just fucked up.
said one individual. perhaps not gay, perhaps better at basketball, perhaps from America, perhaps used to this type of behavior. There are more than just this guy.
It makes me laugh to see people still trying to defend the actions of Mike Rice Jr. Come back to reality. Every pro player, pro basketball coach, college basketball coach, etc have said what Rice did was lunacy. Jim Boeheim said there's a line that can't be crossed, and that not only did Rice cross the line, he erased it.
Then again, Knight's antics made Larry Bird transfer, and he and Isiah Thomas butted heads the entire time Zeke was at IU.
Perhaps he also didn't have the basketball actually make contact with his head and create concussion like symptoms.
