Alternative energy will no longer be alternative

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by SlyPokerDog, May 30, 2013.

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  1. porkchopexpress

    porkchopexpress Well-Known Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_electric_drive#France

    Doesn't say for France, but in Germany, the upcoming Smart Car (electric version) will be 16,000 Euros (plus some 60 euro/month battery fee). I see these all the time down here because there is a zip car type company that has a fleet of them.
     
    porkchopexpress, May 31, 2013
    #21
  2. maxiep

    maxiep RIP Dr. Jack

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    My point is if you produce $30-$40K smart cars that run on nuclear power (which is the majority of French power) and combine that with petrol over $8/gal AND have dense enough development that you use it for only occasional useage, then perhaps you may have a market.

    However, we have petrol at half the price and the electricity with which we power our cars comes from coal and oil. Furthermore, we live in a country much less dense than France. Go ahead and do an LA commute in an electric smart car. Take your kids to their soccer game in one of those things. Combine that with the fact you can get a petrol car for half the price as one of those smart cars that is bigger, safer and more comfortable and you're beginning to see the problem.
     
    maxiep, May 31, 2013
    #22
  3. EL PRESIDENTE

    EL PRESIDENTE Username Retired in Honor of Lanny.

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    here in LA, they've passed legislation requiring a certain percentage of energy come from alternative sources. The result will be a 30%+ increase in rates and an AVERAGE compensation of LA Dept of Water and Power of over $100k a year.

    I don't really notice it since I live minimalistically in a small apartment. If I had a house I'd be fucking screwed though.
     
    EL PRESIDENTE, May 31, 2013
    #23
  4. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    They've lent money numerous times over the years without taking stock in them. From the Chrysler bailout in the early 80s to all the SBA loans guaranteed.
     
    Denny Crane, May 31, 2013
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  5. maxiep

    maxiep RIP Dr. Jack

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    Okay, I guess I didn't explain myself well enough. You don't get stock in a mezz loan. It's treated as an loan and when it terminates, you receive in cash a percent of the equity increase of the company. No stock is involved.

    For the record, I'm against government intervention in markets. It tends to reward bad behavior. My point is that if the people's money is keeping a company afloat, existing investors shouldn't be getting a free ride on the backs of the public's money. What's even more pernicious is when the politicians that help push through these loans the private market won't give are enriched by campaign contributions from those very investors.
     
    maxiep, May 31, 2013
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  6. MarAzul

    MarAzul LongShip

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    That article doesn't cover the biggest problem I had when looking into using solar power to run my sailboat. Even though it is a 60' vessel, you just can't get enough solar panels on the thing to actually keep
    the battery bank charged up. In the end I also needed a Diesel Gen-set to do the job. I put together a Kubota engines/120/240/12V alternator for about $1800. $6000 worth of Solar panels would not be enough
    without also putting in the Genset. End of story, the boat has the Genset and zero Solar panels. The Solar Panels work well where you can't use anything else, like in space.
     
    MarAzul, May 31, 2013
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  7. mook

    mook The 2018-19 season was the best I've seen

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    They've also more than proven themselves in areas where there's no existing infrastructure like Africa.

    But yeah, I think they have very limited applications in finite spaces like boats and cars. They don't generate much energy per square foot, and a lot of the energy it does generate is wasted because you have to always be transporting the panel and ancillary equipment.

    The cost curve in the above chart truly is stunning. I think public perception about solar may be about 3-5 years lagging behind current realities. Imagine what costs could be if the trend continues in another 10 years.
     
    mook, May 31, 2013
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  8. magnifier661

    magnifier661 B-A-N-A-N-A-S!

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    Exactly. Remember when CD players were $600? You can get those same quality ones for $20
     
    magnifier661, May 31, 2013
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  9. maxiep

    maxiep RIP Dr. Jack

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    And what we have is the government subsidizing Laserdiscs. It's picking winners and losers. That's the job of the private sector, not the government.
     
    maxiep, May 31, 2013
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  10. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    It's bad enough the government loans the money in the first place. With nothing but "pay us interest and pay off the loan," the government is at least incentivized to pour more cash in if the first amount isn't enough.

    If you add other incentives, then you'll have Obama pushing the company to produce green things, which likely isn't a good business decision but is a good political one. Or maybe the fool actually thinks it'll maximize equity growth and thus the return to the government on the loan.

    I'm not seeing it.
     
    Denny Crane, May 31, 2013
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  11. maxiep

    maxiep RIP Dr. Jack

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    That's right. You're not seeing it. I'm not advocating the government making these investments, so don't pretend I am. All I'm saying is that if we do, we should structure them to be more advantageous to the public rather than the private investors.
     
    maxiep, May 31, 2013
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  12. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Politicians have historically looked to investments in private markets. They've never been a good idea. Be it Clinton suggesting a portion of the Social Security trust fund invested in the market, or Obama taking stock in GM.

    I don't see it, is right. The government isn't about being some profitable corporation-like thing. They don't profit off the military, for example.
     
    Denny Crane, May 31, 2013
    #32
  13. maxiep

    maxiep RIP Dr. Jack

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    You don't see it. It's pretty simple, so I'm surprised.

    And we don't profit off of the military because it's not a private sector company.
     
    maxiep, May 31, 2013
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  14. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Why should government profit off of anything?

    It's given an allowance to do "good" for the public. It's objective is to spend the money for that public "good." Not to make a profit.

    If keeping Chrysler from going out of business is in the public "good" then they should bail it out.

    Why charge interest? Why make them pay it back at all? So the government isn't publicly funding private enterprise (like European countries do for AirBus).
     
    Denny Crane, May 31, 2013
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  15. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

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    That's your first mistake right there. While I have never built a sailboat like you have from what I understand they are designed to run off of a completely different type of alternative energy than solar.
     
    SlyPokerDog, May 31, 2013
    #35
  16. maxiep

    maxiep RIP Dr. Jack

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    Jesus. You're being intentionally obtuse. Fine. Play the moron.
     
    maxiep, May 31, 2013
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  17. magnifier661

    magnifier661 B-A-N-A-N-A-S!

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    Soon they will design the sail to be solar panels!
     
    magnifier661, May 31, 2013
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  18. porkchopexpress

    porkchopexpress Well-Known Member

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    solarboat
     
    porkchopexpress, May 31, 2013
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  19. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

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    I just thought it was funny he was complaining that he can't run his boat on alternative energy when in fact he is running his boat on alternative energy.
     
    SlyPokerDog, May 31, 2013
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  20. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    No I'm not being obtuse.

    To follow your logic, the government should invest in anything they can to make money. For the purpose of making money. It's a good thing, right?

    You literally complain about the opportunity cost. The opportunity to profit in some sort of sweetheart type deal like private sector investors did.

    Well, the opportunity cost of investing in the military is digging up diamonds out of the ground. Maybe an absurd example, but it may make the point if you get it.

    The govt. isn't a profit center. It makes nothing and sells nothing. It is a leach on society and the private sector making and selling things. It's there to form a more perfect union, not to profit off stock sales or wall street deals.
     
    Denny Crane, May 31, 2013
    #40
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