OT - Grant Hill & Jason Kidd retires

Re: OT - Grant Hill retires

But how many games did Hill play pre-injury? Post-injury he was a role player.

 

Kidd yes Hill no.

 

Easily I think. I'm waiting for KG to announce the same.

 

Re: OT - Grant Hill retires

Offensively, of course. Pippen may be the best wing defender in league history, though. He defended Magic Johnson, Gary Payton, and John Stockton during NBA Finals.

 

Re: OT - Grant Hill retires

Kidd went to hell so quickly this postseason. He went his last 10 playoff games this year without scoring a single point and missed the last 17 shots he took.

 

Re: OT - Grant Hill retires

I always thought Kidd was overrated. He was never any offensive superstar.

 

Re: OT - Grant Hill retires

That depends on how you define an "offensive superstar." Kidd's second all-time in assists and one of the greatest rebounding guards to ever play the game (not to mention third all-time in triple doubles).

I'll try my hardest not to start rambling about Kidd, because I'm admittedly very biased. The guy's been my favorite player since I first became a fan as a kid, and honestly, it bugged me when I saw that his retirement was merged into Grant Hill's retirement, not only on this forum but in the media as well, not to mention that there was even a question posed about whether or not he'll be a HOF'er.

Not only is Kidd a First Ballot shoe-in HOF'er, he should have at least two MVP's by now, but that's another conversation for another day. 10 time All-Star, 5 time All-NBA First Team, 4 time All-NBA Defensive Team (and 5 times on the 2nd Team), and he finally got a ring in Dallas after QB'ing two straight finals teams in NJ but falling short, and it's not like he was just a bit player in that Dallas title either.

Then there are the stats -

All-time #2 in Assists
All-time #2 in Steals
All-time #3 in Triple Doubles
All-time #3 in 3pt FG (from a guy nicknamed "ason")

Those statistical accomplishments are just mindblowing for a player is being grouped into the same category as Grant Hill upon his retirement. Not to mention, he might be the greatest rebounding guard of all-time.

Yeah, Stockton piled up the APG and SPG, but he couldn't board like Kidd, and he had the benefit of running the same offense with the same elite PF for over a decade. In my mind, it's a push when it comes to Kidd or Stockton, and outside of Magic, I don't think the league's really seen a better PG than JK.

Like I said though, I'm really biased, and don't really want to rant too much about Kidd (although I kinda just did, it could get worse haha), I think that more than anything, people need to consider him in the same class as Magic-Stockton-Cousy. Anything less is just an insult to the guy's amazing career.

I also need to find a new favorite player now...

 

Re: OT - Grant Hill retires

Yeah? I think every team he threw up a triple double against in the earlier part of his career completely disagree. Him and VC on the Nets did some serious damage. Great PG. I wouldn't lump him in with Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Isaiah though.

Probably in the next tier with Frazier and Cousy.

 

Re: OT - Grant Hill retires

By offense I meant his own scoring. The last years in international play, he was so bad that the European teams didn't guard him. It was 4 on 5 when the U.S. had possession.

He had a big body for a guard, so he got layups in the NBA the first half of his career, and when he couldn't do that he shot a lot of 3s in the 2nd half of his career. But to be PG of the decade, he needed to be a big-time scorer (at least when necessary, like Magic and Stockton) and he lacked the great scoring ability of, say, Isiah Thomas.

 

Isiah Thomas? Really?! C'mon, the guy was a straight chucker.

Thomas has a sub-30% 3pt percentage and a 75.9 FT%. Kidd's biggest weakness was shooting, but even he had better numbers than that.

He was in the right place at the right time on the "Bad Boys," but to consider him on the same level as Jason Kidd is a joke. (Which, btw, I grew up in Memphis, but I was born in Detroit, and my whole extended family lives there. They're all into basketball, loved the Bad Boys, and still hate Isiah Thomas. I've never heard a good word spoken about the supposedly elite PG from any of my family that actually lived through the Bad Boys era in Detroit. The phrase, "a shorter Bernard King," is thrown around more than anything, as are the words "selfish" and "hack.")

Kidd wasn't a great scorer, but he was the definition of a true point guard.

BTW - There are only three players, in the entire history of the NBA, who are in the 100+ triple-double club - Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, and Jason Kidd.

How many more decades would Isiah have to play before he could reach that status?

 

As for Stockton, he was a 5-time All Second Team Defensive player, largely a nod to his high steal totals.

Kidd, on the other hand, was a 5-time All Second Team Defensive player as well, but in addition to that, he was also a 4-time All First Team Defensive player. Kidd could play on-ball defense in a way that Stockton could only fantasize about. There's a difference between playing great defense throughout the course of your career and being afforded the defensive liberties to gamble and get steals like Stockton did.

Now, let's look at what Kidd did, as the league's greatest floor general since Magic. He was traded to Marbury's Nets and turned them from a 26 win team to a 52 team win. Seriously?!?!? When has that happened in the modern era? He doubled their win total!

Stockton, on the other hand, played in a system that made the pick-and-roll cool again, and had the benefit of having arguably the greatest PF to play the game coming off screens (which is also the reason why Jason Kidd isn't #1 in Assists right now).

I firmly believe that if Kidd were at the helm of those Utah teams, they wouldn't have crumbled against the Bulls time and time again. Jordan was great, but if you swapped out Stockton for Kidd, the Jazz would have some titles.

Just saying... Kidd could just do a lot more than Stockton, and he wasn't so much of a system player. I'd compare Nash and Stockton way before I'd compare Kidd and Stockton.

Think about the following -

What if John Stockton never played pro ball? ... Howard Eisley might more famous, but outside of that...

Jason Kidd would be the NBA's All-Time Assists and Steals leader.

tl;dr - Jason Kidd defined his offenses, instead of letting the personnel define it for him, and he accrued legendary numbers on his own accord, separate of a coach's system.

 

Don't care. Rondo gets more triple doubles than any other PG - Yet, I'd still take a handful over him.

Isaih was an amazing leader, defender and scorer. Jason Kidd, was a better passer, yes. He didn't look for his shot, correct. However, what is a "true" point guard? Aren't you supposed to dictate what your team needs and act accordingly? The Pistons needed him to score, and Kidd always had teams based around his passing ability. Also - I think you'd be surprised at Isaih's assist numbers. Isaih wasn't the nicest guy or anything, and had some serious ego issues + other issues, but on the court? His leadership, tenacity, and scoring ability is pretty special.

and FWIW, no one even sniffs Magic or Oscar.

 

I don't get your triple double logic. Rondo has gotten a few triple dubs, and you don't think he's a good player, therefore the statistic doesn't mean anything?

Regardless of your mindset, 100+ triple doubles is very remarkable. The "triple double" is the reason we really remember the "Big O," and the only other two other players to pass the century mark are Magic Johnson and Jason Kidd.

As for Isiah's legacy, it looks brighter and brighter as the years pass, once we're more removed from actually watching him play, but being a Detroiter, coming from a long line of DI ball players, I was brought up knowing that Isiah was a hacker. Dantley, Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, and even "the Microwave" had more to do with the success than Thomas.

In fact, Dumars hated Thomas. My pops always talks about how no one in the Detroit media ever talked about it, but Dumars (the real hero on those teams) wouldn't even board the same plane as Thomas after some games.

Everyone remembers the Jordan/Thomas feud, but the word around Detroit at the time was that Dumars couldn't stand to be around Thomas. He was a self-important chucker, and the Pistons won back-to-back despite of his play, not because of it.

 

Numbers are useful if you're too young to remember. So they're useless for Thomas, for me. He could rain in shots, near and far, when needed. Kidd couldn't.

Whenever I say what a great PG Jerry West was, someone who wasn't there answers that he was a SG. But that was just his early career. West was a great shooter, great defender, and led the league in assists as PG.

 

Man, I remember when these two were fresh in the league and considered two of the NBAs future top players. I feel old

 

I remember this game when Kidd and Cal beat Hill and Duke in the 1993 NCAA tournament.

[video=youtube;BhOgBJ_2ME8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhOgBJ_2ME8[/video]