<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Sep 7 2006, 02:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Because the lakers don't sniff the playoffs without odom whilst the nets do without rj. Believe me, i've seen how valuable lamar is. One injury to lamar and he's gone for 20-30 games and it's over.</div>That is not fair to RJ, though, as Nets have much more help with arguably the best PG in league and a top 5 swingman (well, at least top 7 or so). Kobe has NOTHING after Lamar, and no playmakers on that team. If you took RJ off the Nets 2nd ECF team, they wouldn't have gotten nearly as far. If they were in West like Lakers are, they probably wouldn't have made playoffs! Teams would focus moreso on Kmart and Kidd, the shooters wouldn't be left open as much due to his threat, etc... Jefferson made it work really well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 7 2006, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That is not fair to RJ, though, as Nets have much more help with arguably the best PG in league and a top 5 swingman (well, at least top 7 or so). Kobe has NOTHING after Lamar, and no playmakers on that team. If you took RJ off the Nets 2nd ECF team, they wouldn't have gotten nearly as far. If they were in West like Lakers are, they probably wouldn't have made playoffs! Teams would focus moreso on Kmart and Kidd, the shooters wouldn't be left open as much due to his threat, etc... Jefferson made it work really well.</div>Which is true, nets wouldn't make the playoffs in the west. I don't see a team with kidd/carter/Nenad doing as bad as kobe/?. I should've rephrased it to "Lamar is more valuable to his team then RJ".You swap Lamar and RJ and which team prospers more with their new player? I have my answer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Sep 7 2006, 02:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Which is true, nets wouldn't make the playoffs in the west. I don't see a team with kidd/carter/Nenad doing as bad as kobe/?. I should've rephrased it to "Lamar is more valuable to his team then RJ".You swap Lamar and RJ and which team prospers more with their new player? I have my answer.</div>I was talking about Nets in 2002-2003, when they went to Finals. If RJ wasn't on that team, they wouldn't have even made playoffs in West. Right this second no doubt Lamar is more valuable to his team. If Kobe didn't have a good playmaker, he'd be dead in the water and have a terrible season like he did in Odom's first year when he wasn't playmaker.Again, unfair question. Nets have absolutely 0 use for Lamar as they already have a greater playmaker in Kidd. When Lamar is forced to be more of a scorer he is very inconsistent and isn't nearly as effective. RJ is much more effective in that role for NJ. But I feel Lamar is a better fit for LA, as RJ is not the playmaker Lamar is, which would force Kobe or Smush (GASP) to be playmaker, and Kobe wouldn't be nearly as effective. They both are perfect fits for their teams.
the reason why they don't double rj coz they don't have to, teams double vince........... opposing teams would rather have him take all the shots than vince, team will take their chances with rj.rj and vince is not on the same level, one gets doubled team more and that's vince. Yes they are a three headed monster but those players don't have the same skill level, one has more than the other and rj has the least.You really think those three has equal talents, opposing teams would focus on vince and kidd first before they would on rj. I can't believe you still think that rj can bring more to the table than lamar, u know what i respect your opinion, but i completely disagree. Bottom line is odom has more to offer than rj as a player.
I think the fact that the nets run a less complicated offense and lamar not being awed like he is in la would make him play better. Lamar's rebounding would be huge also. Lamar's problems this season really consisted of Lamar not understanding the cuts in the triangle [and still doesn't by what tex says]. Lamar started picking his spots and what happens? He averages 17/9/6 on 53% shooting as a second option.Numbers Rj hasn't been able to touch as a leader of a team.And i realise you were talking about the nets 2nd ecf team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 7 2006, 02:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>the reason why they don't double rj coz they don't have to, teams double vince........... opposing teams would rather have him take all the shots than vince, team will take their chances with rj.rj and vince is not on the same level, one gets doubled team more and that's vince. Yes they are a three headed monster but those players don't have the same skill level, one has more than the other and rj has the least.You really think those three has equal talents, opposing teams would focus on vince and kidd first before they would on rj. I can't believe you still think that rj can bring more to the table than lamar, u know what i respect your opinion, but i completely disagree. Bottom line is odom has more to offer than rj as a player.</div>Yes, if they both VC and RJ caught fire and Kidd wa son bench, they'd take their chances with RJ getting single teamed. I am not arguing that VC is the better player, as he is. But it is rare that either of them willg et doubled, but both are "worthy" of it. It just so happens they play with one of the greatest PG's of all time, and both RJ and VC are very good passers so double teaming isn't wise against the Nets.RJ DOES bring more to table than Lamar. Better scorer, more consistent, better leader, better defender (half the game is defense). Lamar is a better passer and rebounder, but when he is not main playmaker he just isn't as effective and team doens't get much out of him. With RJ not being lone scorer he is happy to defer and be a 2nd or 3rd option, or if the team needs him to do a number on the other teams best SG/SF he can. I feel he brings more to the table than Lamar.
What's this better leader buisness? I dont know what you mean with better leader but i talk about being a great leader as being vocal and bringing wins to table.Rj failed horribly in the winning column, he's team was well below .500 before j kidd arrived.I know you're talking about Lamar odom during his career but believe me, that lamar you saw in the 2nd half was no fake That lamar is here to stay. Remember that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Sep 7 2006, 02:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think the fact that the nets run a less complicated offense and lamar not being awed like he is in la would make him play better. Lamar's rebounding would be huge also. Lamar's problems this season really consisted of Lamar not understanding the cuts in the triangle [and still doesn't by what tex says]. Lamar started picking his spots and what happens? He averages 17/9/6 on 53% shooting as a second option.Numbers Rj hasn't been able to touch as a leader of a team.And i realise you were talking about the nets 2nd ecf team.</div>RJ had one shot for a month as the leader of a team with a terrible team where he was focused in on like he was T-Mac on orlando in 2003-2004. He played well, came up huge, kept team from being absolutely miserable. Lamar has never been sole main option or leader of a team. He shared that spot with Eddie Jones and eventually Wade towards end of season on Miami, and when he was expected to be more of a scorer he averaged 15PPG on 47% shooting and only 4APG. And remember, it took lots of sacrifice and getting used to for RJ to get comfortable playing with VC and a brand new team (he missed most of 2004-2005). But in playoffs, as second scoring option, he averaged 23/4/4 on 55% shooting. Bottom line, to me, is that I feel RJ simply has more potential to be a top 15 player in the league than Lamar. I feel he is the kind of person who can lead a decent surrounding cast to playoffs with some very good stats. He is the better scorer, defender, leader, winner, clutch player, and is very consistent. Lamar is a better playmaker and rebounder, and has tons of potential, but he still is somewhat of a lost soul in the NBA. The role he is in now is the most effective he will ever be IMO, while I feel RJ can be more than what he is right now. To me, that equates RJ as a better player and I'd rather have him on my team (unless I didn't have a decent PG, then I'd consider grabbing odom).
listen carefully if rj is that good to be double team why don't they run every play for him since they won't double him. you're just being blind now, TEAMS WILL DOUBLE A PLAYER IF THEY HAVE TO, THEY WILL HAVE NO CHOICE IF THAT CERTAIN PLAYER IS KILLING THEM, NOW THEY WOULD DOUBLE VINCE BECAUSE IF NOT THE NETS WILL JUST GO TO HIM REGULARLY...........THE REASON WHY THEY DON'T DOUBLE RJ IS BECAUSE HE IS NOT WORTHY, NO HE'S NOT..........HE IS A GOOD PLAYER BUT HE DOESN'T REQUIRE A SECOND DEFENDER, HE IS NOT THAT GOOD.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 7 2006, 02:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>listen carefully if rj is that good to be double team why don't they run every play for him since they won't double him. you're just being blind now, TEAMS WILL DOUBLE A PLAYER IF THEY HAVE TO, THEY WILL HAVE NO CHOICE IF THAT CERTAIN PLAYER IS KILLING THEM, NOW THEY WOULD DOUBLE VINCE BECAUSE IF NOT THE NETS WILL JUST GO TO HIM REGULARLY...........THE REASON WHY THEY DON'T DOUBLE RJ IS BECAUSE HE IS NOT WORTHY, NO HE'S NOT..........HE IS A GOOD PLAYER BUT HE DOESN'T REQUIRE A SECOND DEFENDER, HE IS NOT THAT GOOD. </div>Mmmhmmm....again, he is worthy. His numbers are somewhat better than VC's, and VC rarely gets doubled so don't even make that arguement. They CAN'T double team either VC or RJ, why can't you understand that? If they double team one the other will kill you. The only reason Nets aren't a top 1 or 2 team in East is because teams play zone and help D on each of those 3 perimeter players, and shut down middle. When the Nets win it is because Nenad had a good game inside, but when he doesn't VC and RJ's season averages don't get it done. And RJ IS that good. He is a great driver, very athletic, good midrange game, good passer. He was getting doubled and more in the firts month of 2004-2005 season and still played really well and kept Nets from being totally unsavable.
they can't double both of them at the same time (what do you mean by that), they will double vince and not rj and why is that ??? coz u can't double both of them, i don't get it...........they do double vince carter and maybe kidd when he's posting other guards, but not rj.So why are they doubling vince if rj could kill them. How come teams won't play one on one on vince??? Answer: teams double vince coz he could hurt them, team don't double rj not because vince is on the floor it's because he is not worthy of a double team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Sep 7 2006, 02:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I still don't understand how Rj is the better leader . Explain please.</div>When RJ was the leader of Nets for that month, it was after Kmart, Kittles, Harris, etc all left the team. He was forced to lead a team without Kidd, a team that was in rebuilding mode and was a totally different cast than year before. With RJ as main leader, and Kidd just coming back right before Carter was traded to Nets (he had microfacture knee surgery, so he was far from 100% the whole season), RJ kept team at least respectable with a 11-18 record. Now look say the Magic in 2003-2004, with a healthy T-Mac, and a team that had been together before, they went like 1-19 to start the season off. Considering RJ had never been more than a third string option before then, it was impressive. He is very cosnsitent, great scorer, comes up in clutch, is vocal on court, great teammate, etc... I consider him a better leader than Lamar, who is the opposite of those things. When Lamar was forced to lead a young team that didn't really have direction early in season, the Heat started off terribly. It wasn't until Wade started to play and come on, and of course the other players starting to play well, that they started to win and make playoffs (where Wade dominated and Lamar was well below his season stats).Understand what I am getting at?<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 7 2006, 02:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>they can't double both of them at the same time (what do you mean by that), they will double vince and not rj and why is that ??? coz u can't double both of them, i don't get it...........they do double vince carter and maybe kidd when he's posting other guards, but not rj.So why are they doubling vince if rj could kill them. How come teams won't play one on one on vince??? Answer: teams double vince coz he could hurt them, team don't double rj not because vince is on the floor it's because he is not worthy of a double team.</div>Wow, what are you not getting? When Kidd and RJ are in VC is NEVER double teamed unless he is driving to basket. If you double VC, RJ WILL kill you. If you double RJ, VC will do even worse damage (again, not arguing VC is better scorer). If you don't consider dropping 23PPG on 55% shooting as not hurting them then you are crazy.
so why can't he average more if they won't double him and he's that good. those numbers are the ones he benefited from carter being double team, it's not like it was all him.plus why would phoenix double odom if he has kobe alongside him??? don't u think kobe could hurt them ???
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 7 2006, 03:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>so why can't he average more if they won't double him and he's that good. those numbers are the ones he benefited from carter being double team, it's not like it was all him.plus why would phoenix double odom if he has kobe alongside him??? don't u think kobe could hurt them ???</div>He only takes 14 FGA per, while VC is at 19 FGA per game....and VC only averages 4 more PPG. He doesn't take more shots because he isn't selfish, knows to defer to other players. But when need be, he takes his shots. If anyone is the benefiter, it is Kidd, not VC. VC rarely gets doubled, and rarely gives RJ open looks. Kidd gets VC and RJ semi-open looks quite often.LA changed their philosophy against Phoenix in the playoffs. Ins eason Kobe was averaging 40PPG, but in playoffs it was decreased a ton as he was put into playmaker mode and got Odom (and others) open looks. That is a team that worked against because Phoenix doesn't play D and couldn't adjust to that style of play until game 5, but the season before when they played those roles the team, despite having more talent than 2005-2006 LAL, was far less effective.
Other team will double rj if he keeps scoring on single coverage, you think teams will allow him to score and won't double him just because they don't want vince to get his points. NOMy point is it doesn't matter who you are if you're capable of hurting a team, they will start doubling you they couldn't care less what the others will do, coz it's you who's hot at that moment.Taking more shots is not being selfish, if you think you can attack that mismatch on every single possession then you have to run that play till the other team find an answer, that is not being selfish that's playing smart basketball.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 7 2006, 03:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Other team will double rj if he keeps scoring on single coverage, you think teams will allow him to score and won't double him just because they don't want vince to get his points. NOMy point is it doesn't matter who you are if you're capable of hurting a team, they will start doubling you they couldn't care less what the others will do, coz it's you who's hot at that moment.Taking more shots is not being selfish, if you think you can attack that mismatch on every single possession then you have to run that play till the other team find an answer, that is not being selfish that's playing smart basketball.</div>He does keep scoring on single coverage, but there is nothing you can really do about it as if you double RJ then you are leaving VC more open shots (and that can get very ugly, I have seen it first hand many times). Unless VC is having a 50pt night, teams don't double VC or RJ with Kidd in the game.If RJ keeps shooting, that neglects the big men, in which the other team will play zone and force them to use role players and big men.
Wow, did we not just go through this? He averages 20PPG on 50% shooting, while taking only 14FGA's per game. During playoffs his numbers went to 23PPG on 55% shooting. When he needs to, he gets his points. He usually defers to VC, who demands his shots. You may ask why doesn't RJ take those shots if he has a better FG %, and the answer is VC is a streaky scorer like T-Mac and Kobe, and he can turn it on in the blink of an eye. That is the big difference between RJ and VC, VC can take over and score 30pts in a half (seen him do it live in person), while RJ will consistently give you 20-25PPG, never much higher or lower. That is why VC takes more shots, because he has that rare ability. Then you have to dump it down low or else it is crazy to go man to man against the Nets.
you're right but u dont seem to get it, here let me post it again;Other team will double rj if he keeps scoring on single coverage, you think teams will allow him to score and won't double him just because they don't want vince to get his points. NOMy point is it doesn't matter who you are if you're capable of hurting a team, they will start doubling you they couldn't care less what the others will do, coz it's you who's hot at that moment.Taking more shots is not being selfish, if you think you can attack that mismatch on every single possession then you have to run that play till the other team find an answer, that is not being selfish that's playing smart basketball.listen if rj is scoring 30 pts and it's only the second quarter, what do u think the other team should do??? double or not
