<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 10 2006, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>LeBron, Wade and Nash have shown you can still get 20PPG while getting X number of assists. Andrei isn't a big threat for scoring, but Artest is. He was off for whatever reason since joining the Kings, but in '04-'05, for the 16 games he played, he as 25PPG on close to 50% shooting, before he was shopped to Kings was at 20PPG, and in '03-'04 was at 19PPG on very good shooting %. I agree, he is better rebounder and passer (although Artest in Sacramento was averaging just as many assists). And while Kireleinko is better shotblocker, Artest is better at steals, and IMO overall better defense due to his agressive nature and versatility. Only person that I have ever seen that really shutdown LeBron.Yes, I don't think they would have made it. I don't think Kireleinko would have gave them the offensive spark, or agressive defensive spark (a total different mood than previousb years) that Artest gave them.</div>It's not just the assists. He just doesnt demand the ball and shoot it enough. And 4 apg for a wing is a very good total anyways. As for Artest, he played 7 games in 04-05. If you think that he would have kept up that total throughout 75+ games than you are insane. He might have gotten 18 or 19, but thats it. Youre wrong. He got 18.3 ppg in 03-04. Stop making statements up. And you said that he shot a very good percentage, right? Guess what. It was 42% which is a very mediocre number.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 10 2006, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It's not just the assists. He just doesnt demand the ball and shoot it enough. And 4 apg for a wing is a very good total anyways. As for Artest, he played 7 games in 04-05. If you think that he would have kept up that total throughout 75+ games than you are insane. He might have gotten 18 or 19, but thats it. Youre wrong. He got 18.3 ppg in 03-04. Stop making statements up. And you said that he shot a very good percentage, right? Guess what. It was 42% which is a very mediocre number.</div>And that is why Artest is a much better scorer, he demands the ball and can actually take over a game with his scoring. Kirileinko jsut isn't as much of an offensive threat.Artest also averaged 4APG.Yes, I do think Artest could have averaged that many points through 75+ games. Maybe not 25PPG, but at least 22-23PPG. He has that kind of scoring ability. And in '03-'04, he averaged .7 less than what I rounded to, is .7PPG really a big difference to you? Through 16 games in indy this year he was at 19.4PPG on 46% shooting. Through 7 games year before was at 50% shooting. Year before at 43% shooting. For whatever reason, in Sacramento he had terrible shooting % at 38%, but he has had a good % for the most part.And again, outside of defense Andrei does nothing very well. His passing is decent for a SF, his rebound numbers for a 6'9" forward isn't amazing, and his offensive game isn't very consistent 'nor is he the kind of person that defense will key in on. Lastly, he hasn't done much int erms of leading team anywhere or winning anything. Artest is a big threat offensively, defense is superb, and he is a game changer, meaning teams will key in on him and try to stop him. He sparks energy and can change a whole teams mentality, as you saw with the Kings this year. He is an all star, Kirileinko still isn't there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart @ Sep 10 2006, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think a major reason is inconsistency. Any Laker fan will tell you that Lamar Odom is an All Star on Monday, a role player on Wednesday, and a useless ploy on Friday. However, you pretty much know Tayshaun is going to give you between 8 - 16 Points a night while playing solid defense. That's what seperates them to me; although if Lamar gave a consistent contribution night in and out he'd be right behind Shawn Marion in my eyes</div>I think his inconcistency lies in Lamar not knowing how to apply himself in the triangle. He didn't understand the cuts and what spots in the triangle he was most lethal that. He still hasn't fully grasped that but his play post allstar definently improved.My top 101- Lebron james]2- Tmac3- Pierce4- Artest5- Melo6- Marion7- Odom8- AK9- RJ10- TayshaunI believe post allstar odom is better then marion but i have to take everything into account.
^But he has been pretty inconsistent his whole career. Partly because he keeps switching teams/his role on the offense, but he still hasn't had a groove and be a reliable 2nd or 1st option nigh tin and night out. he is an incredible talent, and maybe that will be shown in 2006-2007.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 11 2006, 07:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^But he has been pretty inconsistent his whole career. Partly because he keeps switching teams/his role on the offense, but he still hasn't had a groove and be a reliable 2nd or 1st option nigh tin and night out. he is an incredible talent, and maybe that will be shown in 2006-2007.</div>I agree he has. I made my list on the assumption that Lamar would continue his post allstar into the playoffs game. I don't see him reverting back to his old self
Plus it's gonna be hard for Odom to find consistency having to play for 4 different coaches in 4 years.
(I'm going by pure SF's, not guys that are SG/SF's...etc). 1. Shawn Marion - He's been putting up 20/11 since he came into the league, it doesn't matter who his PG is. He just gets it done every night. Last season averaged 22ppg/12rpg/2apg/2bpg/1.6spg and he's put up numbers right at that level for a while now. At 6'7" 215 has been sliding over to play PF for a few years, he's just got springs for legs and pulls down every rebound. Elite shotblocker and his long arms grab tons of steals. His defense is the most underrated thing about him, he will give you 100% and like Artest can guard anyone he's put on. Marion just gets it done, is always flying around and giving it his all, I think he's the most underrated player in the NBA. 2. Carmelo Anthony - He bumped his scoring to over 26 per game, he's the only real scoring threat on his team and still shot 48% last year up from 43%. Everyone knows he's one of biggest money shooters in the league, he can put a team on his back. He's the new and improved version of Glenn Robinson. I'm expecting a huge year, it's just a damn shame Denver mangement is so stupid. 3. Ron Artest - Elite defender, we all know that. But the last couple of years whenever i've watched him I think he's been trying to force his offense too much and it shows with his low FG percentages (40%, 30%)...He needs to let the game come to him instead of forcing shots. He played out of shape last year and it looked like he had a garbage bag in his shorts his butt was so big...He's a mauler on defense and takes on SG's and even PF's. I rank him lower because of his problems and forced offense. 4. Richard Jefferson - One of the most underrated players in the NBA. In 2004 put up 22ppg and can take the reins over when the Nets have injuries, Jefferson is one of the leagues good guys and has a 100% motor running all the time. He plays hard on defense and scores in bunches. He was very effcient last year scoring 20ppg while shooting 50% from the floor. He takes good shots and doesn't force it. I love this guy. 5. Andrei Kirilenko - Everyone knows about his smothering defense, his insane shotblocking and rebounding. His offensive game needs to develope, it's been slow. He only averaged 15ppg and he only shot 46% from the floor which is lower than it should be even though he's playing SF now.
^Great top 5, almost identical to mine (I put Melo over Shawn due to points, clutch factor, and the fact that Shawn has never really been the man on his team 'nor took the team anywhere without Steve).Edit: Crap, I meant to put Shawn over Ron in my top 10. Fixed.
None of you guys put Rashard in you top 10! but you have prince and jefferson? What up with that? rashard is a 20+ppg player
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clangus @ Sep 10 2006, 07:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>None of you guys put Rashard in you top 10! but you have prince and jefferson? What up with that? rashard is a 20+ppg player</div> I hate to say it, but Rashard Lewis is a one-dimentional offensive star who plays second fiddle to Ray Allen. On most lists he isn't going to be high because he doesn't play the defense that Marion, Artest, Prince and Jefferson play. I like Lewis a lot but most people would much rather have Jefferson who is better all-around. I think people are going a little overboard on Tayshaun Prince to be honest.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BCB @ Sep 11 2006, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I hate to say it, but Rashard Lewis is a one-dimentional offensive star who plays second fiddle to Ray Allen. On most lists he isn't going to be high because he doesn't play the defense that Marion, Artest, Prince and Jefferson play. I like Lewis a lot but most people would much rather have Jefferson who is better all-around. I think people are going a little overboard on Tayshaun Prince to be honest.</div>Your very right. Tayshaun is a bit over-rated and Rashard doesn't play defense or rebound! It drives me insane that a guy 6-10 get 5rpg!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clangus @ Sep 10 2006, 07:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your very right. Tayshaun is a bit over-rated and Rashard doesn't play defense or rebound! It drives me insane that a guy 6-10 get 5rpg!</div> Lewis averags 6-7 rebounds a game, considering he plays SF and isn't a banger, it's okay for me. He gets as many rebounds as most elite SF's.
Half of these statements are biased. The guys list is pretty decent with the exception of Rashard lewis he should be down-graded. T-mac should go down to like 3 imo even though he is my favorite player
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 10 2006, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And that is why Artest is a much better scorer, he demands the ball and can actually take over a game with his scoring. Kirileinko jsut isn't as much of an offensive threat.Artest also averaged 4APG.Yes, I do think Artest could have averaged that many points through 75+ games. Maybe not 25PPG, but at least 22-23PPG. He has that kind of scoring ability. And in '03-'04, he averaged .7 less than what I rounded to, is .7PPG really a big difference to you? Through 16 games in indy this year he was at 19.4PPG on 46% shooting. Through 7 games year before was at 50% shooting. Year before at 43% shooting. For whatever reason, in Sacramento he had terrible shooting % at 38%, but he has had a good % for the most part.And again, outside of defense Andrei does nothing very well. His passing is decent for a SF, his rebound numbers for a 6'9" forward isn't amazing, and his offensive game isn't very consistent 'nor is he the kind of person that defense will key in on. Lastly, he hasn't done much int erms of leading team anywhere or winning anything. Artest is a big threat offensively, defense is superb, and he is a game changer, meaning teams will key in on him and try to stop him. He sparks energy and can change a whole teams mentality, as you saw with the Kings this year. He is an all star, Kirileinko still isn't there.</div>No, there is quite a difference. We are comparing their skills as players, not what they do in the games. Kirilenko has range, and can play in the post. He has just as many offensive weapons that Artest does, and if he shot the ball like Artest, he would average the same total.He did average 16.5 ppg one year, but I guess that is not much of a threat to you. I agree, that he does not average the same totals that Artest can put up, but he is just as effective, because he will get you 3-4 less ppg, but on a much higher percentage. He likes to move the ball around, and get his teammates involved quite a bit. Yes, it is a pretty big difference from rpg. .7 makes 6.4 turn into 7.1 It is a pretty big difference, and I felt I needed to correct it.I dont care about 7 games, man. That means nothing. Players have hot and cold spurts in the NBA. Their totals go up and down. 7 games means nothing compared to averages of an 82 game season. I doubt his totals would have been higher than 20 to be honest. Look at Corey Maggette. He averaged like 23 ppg in his first 7 games. What happened after those seven? He had an injury plagued season and averaged 18. Same thing with only 16 games. Plus, 19 ppg isnt far off his total of almost 18 a game. That could have happened anyway. Artest has never shot more than 43% if he played more than 50 games in a season btw.Outside of defense, Andrei has nothing? WTF? He was the leading shotblocker two seasons ago, as a freaking wing player! Oh yeah, I guess 8 rpg is not great for a wing player. That is bullsh**. Andrei is 3rd in the League in rebounding for SF's behind Marion (If you would even call him that, since he played PF/C the whole season for Phoenix), and Lamar Odom. So dont feed me that, good but not great crap. He is an excellent rebounder. I count 15 ppg on 46% shooting very decent for a wing. He obviously does have a good offensive game. He has range, and he can play in the post. He is a solid offensive player. He is also a great stealer and a good passer for his position. So I honeslty dont know what you mean when you say he is a one-demensional player. He is one of the most diverse players in the NBA. He is good at pretty much everything. Why do you think he is taken really high on Fantasy teams? He can get you all sorts of stats.Okay, Im sorry that he cant lead the freaking Utah Jazz anywhere. Look at the talent and support he has had in the past. Nothing. Now look at Ron Artest. He had Stephen Jackson, Tinsley, Reggie Miller, and Jermaine Freaking O'Neal beside him, and one of the most talented teams in Sacremento too, in Bibby, Bonzi Wells, Brad Miller, Shareef, Kevin Martin, Garcia, Kenny Thomas, et autre amis.Kirilenko gets it all done, and is better at tebounding, passing, blocking shots, scoring downlow, than Artest. He is the whole package at SF. Thats why Id pick him. He would be a game changer too, if he didnt play for the Utah Jazz.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 11 2006, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, there is quite a difference. We are comparing their skills as players, not what they do in the games. Kirilenko has range, and can play in the post. He has just as many offensive weapons that Artest does, and if he shot the ball like Artest, he would average the same total.He did average 16.5 ppg one year, but I guess that is not much of a threat to you. I agree, that he does not average the same totals that Artest can put up, but he is just as effective, because he will get you 3-4 less ppg, but on a much higher percentage. He likes to move the ball around, and get his teammates involved quite a bit. Yes, it is a pretty big difference from rpg. .7 makes 6.4 turn into 7.1 It is a pretty big difference, and I felt I needed to correct it.I dont care about 7 games, man. That means nothing. Players have hot and cold spurts in the NBA. Their totals go up and down. 7 games means nothing compared to averages of an 82 game season. I doubt his totals would have been higher than 20 to be honest. Look at Corey Maggette. He averaged like 23 ppg in his first 7 games. What happened after those seven? He had an injury plagued season and averaged 18. Same thing with only 16 games. Plus, 19 ppg isnt far off his total of almost 18 a game. That could have happened anyway. Artest has never shot more than 43% if he played more than 50 games in a season btw.Outside of defense, Andrei has nothing? WTF? He was the leading shotblocker two seasons ago, as a freaking wing player! Oh yeah, I guess 8 rpg is not great for a wing player. That is bullsh**. Andrei is 3rd in the League in rebounding for SF's behind Marion (If you would even call him that, since he played PF/C the whole season for Phoenix), and Lamar Odom. So dont feed me that, good but not great crap. He is an excellent rebounder. I count 15 ppg on 46% shooting very decent for a wing. He obviously does have a good offensive game. He has range, and he can play in the post. He is a solid offensive player. He is also a great stealer and a good passer for his position. So I honeslty dont know what you mean when you say he is a one-demensional player. He is one of the most diverse players in the NBA. He is good at pretty much everything. Why do you think he is taken really high on Fantasy teams? He can get you all sorts of stats.Okay, Im sorry that he cant lead the freaking Utah Jazz anywhere. Look at the talent and support he has had in the past. Nothing. Now look at Ron Artest. He had Stephen Jackson, Tinsley, Reggie Miller, and Jermaine Freaking O'Neal beside him, and one of the most talented teams in Sacremento too, in Bibby, Bonzi Wells, Brad Miller, Shareef, Kevin Martin, Garcia, Kenny Thomas, et autre amis.Kirilenko gets it all done, and is better at tebounding, passing, blocking shots, scoring downlow, than Artest. He is the whole package at SF. Thats why Id pick him. He would be a game changer too, if he didnt play for the Utah Jazz.</div>Well that is just ridiculous. Just because Lamar Odom has more talent then, say, Carmelo Anthony, doesn't mean he is the better player. It is what they do on the court, not their skill set. He doesn't get a much higher percentage. The year he had 16.5PPG he got it on 44% shooting, which is around 2% better than Artest in '03-'04, and this year (although he was at 46% with Indy through 16 games). Artest averaged more PPG in both of those seasons, and got his team to playoffs in both of the seasons (what he did with the Kings, changing their whole mentality and making them a tough team was impressive). And .7PPG difference is MUCH different than .7RPG difference. These 2 players get about twice as many points as they do rebounds, so 1PPG difference is MUCH different than 1RPG difference.Just because he didn't doesn't mean anything. He was coming off the best season of his career, and was a MUCH bigger factor offensively than previous seasons. You could see the same thing through 16 games this season with the Pacers, although he was playing with a much different team than previous seasons. With the Kings he became 2nd perimeter offensive threat, was playing with a new system, and just wasn't as efficient.whoa there cowboy, never said he did nothing outside of defense. I said he does nothing very well outside of defense. Despite decent numbers offensively, he is not a major threat on offense, and defenses aren't going to key in on him as if he was a 20PPG scorer, or can really hurt the team offensively. Artest can do that. And I consider BPG as a defensive stat, and his RPG totals for a 6'9'' player isn't amazing. Ben Wallace (6'9''), Elton Brand (6'8''), Shawn Marion (6'7''!!), Odom (6'10"), Emeka (6'10''), Jamison (6'9''), Chris Bosh (6'10''), a healthy Amare (6'10''), and others will all grab you more rebounds for Andrei's general height. Andrei is a very good rebounder, but far from elite for his size. He never showed any leadership so far, still can't really carry a team, still isn't much of a threat. Artest was the key to the Indiana team that was best in basketball, winning DPOY, was on all defensive first team too, not to mention averaging 18PPG/5RPG/4APG/2SPG. When Artest arrived with the Kings they were 18-24, and in dissaray. By season's end they were 44-38, which means they went 26-12 since Artest's arrival. They drastically improved their defense, they had a whole new mentality, and he was just huge for them. That is what Artest brings to the table, he is a total team and game changer, can single handedly stop a star player while dropping 20PPG on him. Kirileinko isn't quite that defender, and he isn't the offensive player or total game changer Artest is.Yet to be seen, man. Skill wise, he is arguably the most all around player in the league, and a fantasy stud, but during game he doesn't make such an impact, offensively, defensively or emotionally that Artest does. That is why I pick Artest.
No particular order (except maybe LBJ):LeBron JamesCarmelo AnthonyTayshaun PrinceRichard JeffersonShawn Marion
When did I say anything about talent? We are talking about who thee more skilled player is on the court. Ron Artest may put up better ppg numbers, but Kirilenko has great scoring ability too. He just dooesnt shoot the ball as much as he probably should. Your just using his bad percentage years. He also shot 49% in 02-03, and another 49% in 04-05. He has shot 46% for his career while Artest has only shot .416 for his career. If we are talking percentages here, then that is quite an advantage for Kirilenko. In a 20+ game season, Artest's highest fg% was 43%. That is pretty poor right there, and it shows how Kirilenko is much better percentage wise. Also, we are judging them as players this year, correct? Well, let's look at Artest's fg% with the Kings. It was a measly 38%, and a slightly better, but still crap, 40% for the entire year. Well, Kirilenko's was at a much higher 46%. So yes, I think I am definately right to say that Kirilenko is the much more efficient shooter and scorer. Case closed on this one. I'll take your quote. This is what you said: "outside of defense Andrei does nothing very well". Well, I was proving that wrong. Kirilenko is one of the most versatile forwards in the NBA, and he does a lot of things very well. I would say 15 ppg is a very good threat on offense. You say that is nothing, but when Artest averages 2 percent higher on a much worse percentage, you say he is a very big threat on offense. That is a bit of a contradiction there. No sir. We were talking about man to man defense, not defensive blocks. They are actually quite different things, and Kirilenko excels at both. We arent talking about his height. It is more amazing that he plays on the wing and gets those numbers. All the guys you listed except Odom play downlow, or power forward most of the time. Thats why it is very impressive for a SF wing player to average 8 ppg. If you think he wouldnt average anything higher than that playing PF full time than you are wrong. He is obviously a great rebounder. No leadership? Did Artest show leadership when he said that he wouldnt play for the Pacers anymore. Did he show leadership when he took time off of the NBA to work on his freaking rap CD, which is something that he could have done in the off-season anyway. And did he show leadership when he punched that fan and got his teammates and himself suspended for 80 months? Dont talk to me about leadership. Anyways, he was never the leader of the Pacers anyway. The leader was clearly Jermaine O'Neal. And he has always had more talent to work with than Kirilenko. He had Reggie, Tinsley, Jermaine, Stephen Jackson, and others in Indiana, and Bibby, Shareef, Bonzi, Brad and others in Sacramento. Look at Andrei Kirilenko. He has never had the talent that Artest had. Do you honestly think that Artest could have led those Jazz teams to even better records, and more playoff appearences that Andrei? No. Jerry Sloan would have probably kicked his sorry ass out in the first few months. Andrei has led the weak Jazz teams to the playoffs a couple of times. No duh. If the Kings got Kirilenko they would have made the playoffs as well. It is not that big of an accomplishment. The Kings already had lots of talent. They just needed that extra piece to thrive. Kirilenko isnt a game changer? I see...so getting 15, ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg, 3 bpg, 2 spg and playing great defense isnt changing a game? That is the biggest BS I have ever heard. If those Jazz teams didnt have Andrei, they would be near the bottom of the League for sure.
Talent=skill in my eyes. Andrei is a stat guy, but he has not been a main threat offensively, and defensively he can't totally lock down a player like Artest and totally change a team's mentality from soft to gritty like Artest did. I am not using his bad % year like that is the only reason I picked that year. It was his only season averaging over 16PPG, and it was his only season of voer 70 games where he was biggest threat on offense. Itb was his first year without Stock or Malone, and only year in past 3 where he played more than 69 games. I'd say that year gives the best representation of what kind of scorer he is when relied to do a big scoring bulkAnd his first 2 seasons he played with malone, Stockton and Harpring, so he was not even a 2nd option scoring. He had the best PG of all time giving him open looks, so of course his FG % was considerably higher. The first year, and only year playing over 70 games, that he didn't have Stock/Malone he averaged 16.5PPG on 44% shooting. Next year he only started 37 games and averaged 49% shooting, but if you are gonna take away from Artest's 23 or so games of averaging around 22PPG on around 48% shooting, then you can't use that much to your advantage either. No, you are not proving that wrong. Read the sentence, I am saying that outside of defense, Andrei isn't a very good-great anything. Kirileinko is very versatile, but like Odom, unless you use it correctly, it doesn't mean you are an elite player. Up until this point he can't be the man on offense, is not an amazing passer, and is just not a natural born leader. He can't change a whole team's mentality and confidence like Artest can.Umm, you were the one who brought up blocks in the first place. It is a defensive stat, whether you like it or not. Man to man defense I give edge to Artest, as he can totally take a superstar out of his rythym with extremely agressive defense. Kirileinko is a fantastic defender, but more of a help defender, and he can't totally lock down a superstar.Marion plays SF and is almost always floating near perimeter. If Kirileinlo was a great rebounder he'd be grabbing more rebounds, as other smaller players have shown. When they play zone he is down low, also. Never called Artest a leader, but he can change games on both sides of the ball and was the most important piece of the Indiana team in 03-04. O'Neal might have been best player, but without Artest he has shown nothing, while Artest brought a Kings team out of the slums.Kirileinko wasn't even the 2nd biggest offensive threat for the Jazz this year. Okur averaging 18PPG, Boozer averaging 16PPG (yes, he did only play 33 games, but still). He had a talented team with Harpring, Okur, Williams, Boozer, Giricek, and a few other talented bench role players. Kirileinko couldn't lead them better than a .500 record, and since Stock and Malone have left hasn't made a playoff (and on that team he was 4th on the offensive agenda). If you think this team isn't very talented, then why didn't Kirileinko try and score more? Take over? Lead?!? That is why Artest is the better player, he changes a team and the whole game. He is a dangerous scoring threat, and defensively showed he can change a whole team. With Peja, averaging more PPG on a better % than Artest, they were like 8 games below .500. By seasons's end they were in western conference playoffs. That is the kind of player Artest is, Kirileinko isn't.Kirileinko is a great stat guy, but he isn't a main option for scoring, can't take over games, and defensively can't toally shut down or take a superstar like LeBron out of his rythym like Artest can. Without Malone or Stockton, even with a talented team this year, he got his team nowhere. Yes, Artest is not the best teammate, but he does his job every single game. You always know he will get between 17-20PPG, always know he will play some of the best defense you will see on other team. As a coach you know he will spark his teammates to come to play, which is what he did with Kings. You know he will be the heart and soul of your team, and will play as hard as possible all the way up to at least the conference finals, even if he has an attitude problem. He proved this in 03-04. That is the kind of things that IMO overtake a better RPG number and few % better on FG's. Back to the original point, that can go along with odom too- Skill gets you only so far. Artest has proven he can be an elite NBA player, can totally change around a team and overall is just fantastic. Kirileinko still can't prove he can be a big scoring threat, still can't be a go-to guy, still can't take a team with talent and get them better than 50%.Artest has proven more than once he can do that, and ontop of that I feel he is better scorer and one on one defender. Kirileinko is a better rebounder and a bit more efficient scoring the ball, that's it (passing he averages less than .5APG more, so that isn't a real advantage).
