<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BCB @ Sep 13 2006, 07:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, compare the Pistons roster to the roster of 23 year olds with little experience.</div>Actually, Billups,Hamilton,Prince,Wallace, and Ben Wallace had no championship or finals experience before winning the championship in 2003-2004. It's not about the age difference but about how much experience you have in the championship and late in the playoffs and the Pistons didn't have much of that in the 2003-2004 season. Kirk Hinrich is very mature for his age and has proven he could lead a team and Ben Wallace has already won a championship and has improved in experience because of that finals experience. Andres Nocioni is also mature for his age and has olympic gold experience and is also a very tough player and leader. He came into the league at an older age but he's been a proven veteran and leader on this Chicago Bulls roster. Ben Gordon and Luol Deng are the only players that don't have great experience that could start for us next season but as the season progresses I think they could both build up their experience and knowledge of the game. Experience is overrated, Dwyane Wade didn't have much experience but led the Heat to the championship.
Dwyane made the playoffs every year he was in the league and he made it to the Eastern Conference Semis in his first year. Nocioni and Deng will NOT average better numbers then Tay, he already showed he can step up and be a big scorer for the Pistons. I expect him to average nothing lower then 20 points, with Rasheed on the decline he should be able to take more shots.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Sep 13 2006, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Actually, Billups,Hamilton,Prince,Wallace, and Ben Wallace had no championship or finals experience before winning the championship in 2003-2004. It's not about the age difference but about how much experience you have in the championship and late in the playoffs and the Pistons didn't have much of that in the 2003-2004 season. Kirk Hinrich is very mature for his age and has proven he could lead a team and Ben Wallace has already won a championship and has improved in experience because of that finals experience. Andres Nocioni is also mature for his age and has olympic gold experience and is also a very tough player and leader. He came into the league at an older age but he's been a proven veteran and leader on this Chicago Bulls roster. Ben Gordon and Luol Deng are the only players that don't have great experience that could start for us next season but as the season progresses I think they could both build up their experience and knowledge of the game. Experience is overrated, Dwyane Wade didn't have much experience but led the Heat to the championship.</div> Experience is overrated? Please. Dwyane Wade led his team which included 3 time champion Shaquille O'Neal, long-time experienced veterans Alonzo Mourning and Gary Payton. The Bulls are a very good young team but most of the players on that roster are under 24, I'm sorry but it is a big factor.
They have like 3 players that will play that are under 24. Ben Gordon has been in the playoffs the last 2 years and has done very well. He's a good scorer and has been pretty clutch and should improve this season. Deng is young but has always been in the playoffs for 2 seasons. Thomas and Sefolosha aren't a HUGE part of the team but in the playoffs they'll be usefull off the bench even without experience. This team is good enough to get the the conference Finals.
I'm sorry but you're arguments aren't very good. The Detroit Pistons won the championship with no championship experience. So the Heat had O'neal,Mourning, and Payton? The Chicago Bulls have P.J. Brown,Ben Wallace and Adrian Griffin who went to the championship as a member of the Dallas Mavericks. If the Detroit Pistons can win without championship experience and a young and inexperienced Tayshaun Prince then why can't the Chicago Bulls possibly contend for the title with Ben Wallace and Adrian Griffin who have both been to the finals recently. Nocioni basically has more than championship experience because the olympics are a much bigger stage for international players and if he could win the gold medal with Argentina and contribute then I don't see why he couldn't contribute in a Chicago Bulls championship run. Kirk Hinrich is a mature leader and a great leader and teammate. He does everything very well and is one of the best point guards in the league.We have added two championship experienced players that have all been there recently and we've also added P.J. Brown whose been in the league for many years but hasn't ever won a title and you know that's his mission in Chicago. We have a great variety of players and we are the most complete team in the league. We have offense and many players who could score but we also have if not the best defense, one of the best defensive rosters in the league. <span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%">Defense wins championship, and the Bulls have that.</span>
To be honest, even without the whole "playoff experience" arguement, I still think the pistons have a better roster. The reason they are such a good team is because they play so well together. Sure, Ben Wallace was an emotional leader, but its not like he carried the leadership role in Detroit. They gain a center who can produce greatly when given the playing time. And he will be getting plenty of it considering McDyess cant back up both the PF spot and the C spot at the same time. The Pistons have a thing that I like to call chemistry. They all play extremely hard and they each know their role on the team. Now that Ben Wallace is gone, other players will step up more on the defensive end knowing that the must. They have the defensive skills, they just didnt use them as much because they knew that they could rely on Big Ben.Sure, the bulls have a boatload of talent, but they dont have something that the pistons have. They dont have experience in general...therefor they would not know how to handle certain situations. They havent been playing together as long as the pistons have. Also, know that Big Ben is out, they will be able to shine more on the offensive end. Last season, when they needed to get the job done with their offense, they showed that they could do it. They will be able to play more of an uptempo game. Also, the Pistons will not have the liability of Big Ben at the free throw line. Nazr Muhammad was the 2nd best free throw shooter on the spurs roster last season behind Finley. That will help out alot more than you think.The main reason that the bulls are overrated is because people expect too much out of them. It is not that they are not a good team, because they are. But it is going to take a little while before they can get to the championship and before they can earn my respect.Edit: Owned
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Sep 13 2006, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To be honest, even without the whole "playoff experience" arguement, I still think the pistons have a better roster. The reason they are such a good team is because they play so well together. Sure, Ben Wallace was an emotional leader, but its not like he carried the leadership role in Detroit. They gain a center who can produce greatly when given the playing time. And he will be getting plenty of it considering McDyess cant back up both the PF spot and the C spot at the same time. The Pistons have a thing that I like to call chemistry. They all play extremely hard and they each know their role on the team. Now that Ben Wallace is gone, other players will step up more on the defensive end knowing that the must. They have the defensive skills, they just didnt use them as much because they knew that they could rely on Big Ben.Sure, the bulls have a boatload of talent, but they dont have something that the pistons have. They dont have experience in general...therefor they would not know how to handle certain situations. They havent been playing together as long as the pistons have. Also, know that Big Ben is out, they will be able to shine more on the offensive end. Last season, when they needed to get the job done with their offense, they showed that they could do it. They will be able to play more of an uptempo game. Also, the Pistons will not have the liability of Big Ben at the free throw line. Nazr Muhammad was the 2nd best free throw shooter on the spurs roster last season behind Finley. That will help out alot more than you think.The main reason that the bulls are overrated is because people expect too much out of them. It is not that they are not a good team, because they are. But it is going to take a little while before they can get to the championship and before they can earn my respect.Edit: Owned</div> I pretty much agree with everything, good post Ballerman.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Sep 13 2006, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To be honest, even without the whole "playoff experience" arguement, I still think the pistons have a better roster. The reason they are such a good team is because they play so well together. Sure, Ben Wallace was an emotional leader, but its not like he carried the leadership role in Detroit. They gain a center who can produce greatly when given the playing time. And he will be getting plenty of it considering McDyess cant back up both the PF spot and the C spot at the same time. The Pistons have a thing that I like to call chemistry. They all play extremely hard and they each know their role on the team. Now that Ben Wallace is gone, other players will step up more on the defensive end knowing that the must. They have the defensive skills, they just didnt use them as much because they knew that they could rely on Big Ben.Sure, the bulls have a boatload of talent, but they dont have something that the pistons have. They dont have experience in general...therefor they would not know how to handle certain situations. They havent been playing together as long as the pistons have. Also, know that Big Ben is out, they will be able to shine more on the offensive end. Last season, when they needed to get the job done with their offense, they showed that they could do it. They will be able to play more of an uptempo game. Also, the Pistons will not have the liability of Big Ben at the free throw line. Nazr Muhammad was the 2nd best free throw shooter on the spurs roster last season behind Finley. That will help out alot more than you think.The main reason that the bulls are overrated is because people expect too much out of them. It is not that they are not a good team, because they are. But it is going to take a little while before they can get to the championship and before they can earn my respect.Edit: Owned</div>Owned?...and this is coming from someone who can't spell Nazr Mohammed correct?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Sep 13 2006, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Owned?...and this is coming from someone who can't spell Nazr Mohammed correct?</div> Oh give him a break there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Sep 13 2006, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Owned?...and this is coming from someone who can't spell Nazr Mohammed correct?</div>haha...is that all you could find to argue. Im sorry that I failed you.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Sep 13 2006, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Owned?...and this is coming from someone who can't spell Nazr Mohammed correct?</div>you're making a deal out of that? grow up.the pistons have a better team than the bulls, and here's why.they have a go-to option. a few of them actually. Rip is a great guy to go to when you need a quick scorer. he's excellent at moving without the ball, and he has a great midrange game. he could get 22-25 nightly. Billups is the guy to go to late in the game. one of the most clutch players in the league, has huge fourth quarters. The bulls don't really have a go to guy. they just have alot of young guys that are pretty good. nobody all-star calibur right now. offensively anyways.the reason the bulls were nothing more than a first round exit team is bc they had no offense. a few guys that could shoot with ZERO inside presence. they failed to improve on their offense AT ALL, although they did improve their D. The defense is what got them to the playoffs, and offense will carry them through those playoffs. Hustle and defense can only get you so far. Defense without offense is nothing. Offense without defense is nothing. You have to have a combination of both. This is why the pistons are better than the bulls. they have the right combination of opffense and defense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Sep 13 2006, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To be honest, even without the whole "playoff experience" arguement, I still think the pistons have a better roster. The reason they are such a good team is because they play so well together. Sure, Ben Wallace was an emotional leader, but its not like he carried the leadership role in Detroit. They gain a center who can produce greatly when given the playing time. And he will be getting plenty of it considering McDyess cant back up both the PF spot and the C spot at the same time. The Pistons have a thing that I like to call chemistry. They all play extremely hard and they each know their role on the team. Now that Ben Wallace is gone, other players will step up more on the defensive end knowing that the must. They have the defensive skills, they just didnt use them as much because they knew that they could rely on Big Ben.Sure, the bulls have a boatload of talent, but they dont have something that the pistons have. They dont have experience in general...therefor they would not know how to handle certain situations. They havent been playing together as long as the pistons have. Also, know that Big Ben is out, they will be able to shine more on the offensive end. Last season, when they needed to get the job done with their offense, they showed that they could do it. They will be able to play more of an uptempo game. Also, the Pistons will not have the liability of Big Ben at the free throw line. Nazr Muhammad was the 2nd best free throw shooter on the spurs roster last season behind Finley. That will help out alot more than you think.The main reason that the bulls are overrated is because people expect too much out of them. It is not that they are not a good team, because they are. But it is going to take a little while before they can get to the championship and before they can earn my respect.Edit: I Owned Myself</div>You don't seem to realize that Ben Wallace was the heart and soul of the Detroit Pistons. The Detroit Pistons won the championship as defensive team and had a defensive center in the paint that forced opponents to shoot and take low percentage attempts because Ben Wallace was that great of a player. Their opponents couldn't drive on them and became one dimensional and that usually doesn't work out. Nazr Mohammed is one of the softest centers in the league which is why he didn't recieve playing time from the San Antonio Spurs late in the playoff run and is the reason the San Antonio Spurs let him loose. It wasn't free throws that made the Detroit Pistons a good team but it was defense. You can't replace the best defensive player in the league for a soft center like Nazr Mohammed. The Pistons are no longer a great defensive team and opponents will now be able to score points outside and inside against the Detroit Pistons defense. Like I have said before I guarantee the Chicago Bulls finish with a better record than the Detroit Pistons, and when they accomplish that I will come back to this thread and then we'll see who gets owned.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Sep 13 2006, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You don't seem to realize that Ben Wallace was the heart and soul of the Detroit Pistons. The Detroit Pistons won the championship as defensive team and had a defensive center in the paint that forced opponents to shoot and take low percentage attempts because Ben Wallace was that great of a player. Their opponents couldn't drive on them and became one dimensional and that usually doesn't work out. Nazr Mohammed is one of the softest centers in the league which is why he didn't recieve playing time from the San Antonio Spurs late in the playoff run and is the reason the San Antonio Spurs let him loose. It wasn't free throws that made the Detroit Pistons a good team but it was defense. You can't replace the best defensive player in the league for a soft center like Nazr Mohammed. The Pistons are no longer a great defensive team and opponents will now be able to score points outside and inside against the Detroit Pistons defense. Like I have said before I guarantee the Chicago Bulls finish with a better record than the Detroit Pistons, and when they accomplish that I will come back to this thread and then we'll see who gets owned.</div> Ben Wallace is the most overrated defensive player of our generation, all people do is look at his statistics. Rasheed Wallace is easily the better defender of the two players and most NBA players will tell you that. Wallace has springs for feet and pulls down rebounds and was once an elite shotblocker but thats not all defense is. People that think Wallace is a better defender than Dikembe Mutombo because he has more DPY awards are idiots. Dikembe would just shot you out.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ Sep 13 2006, 08:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>you're making a deal out of that? grow up.the pistons have a better team than the bulls, and here's why.they have a go-to option. a few of them actually. Rip is a great guy to go to when you need a quick scorer. he's excellent at moving without the ball, and he has a great midrange game. he could get 22-25 nightly. Billups is the guy to go to late in the game. one of the most clutch players in the league, has huge fourth quarters. The bulls don't really have a go to guy. they just have alot of young guys that are pretty good. nobody all-star calibur right now. offensively anyways.the reason the bulls were nothing more than a first round exit team is bc they had no offense. a few guys that could shoot with ZERO inside presence. they failed to improve on their offense AT ALL, although they did improve their D. The defense is what got them to the playoffs, and offense will carry them through those playoffs. Hustle and defense can only get you so far. Defense without offense is nothing. Offense without defense is nothing. You have to have a combination of both. This is why the pistons are better than the bulls. they have the right combination of opffense and defense.</div>Your arguments are terrible and I honestly thought you were a solid debator. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Defense without offense is nothing. Offense without defense is nothing. You have to have a combination of both. This is why the pistons are better than the bulls. they have the right combination of opffense and defense.</div>You're joking correct? The Detroit Pistons have no low presence defense and please read my post above and it will explain moree about how much Ben Wallace's departure effected the Detroit Pistons. Nazr Mohammed is soft, and Rasheed Wallace isn't a good rebounder and doesn't play hard defense. They have the right combination of defense and offense. You're right, the Chicago Bulls have the right combination of defense and offense. You have Hinrich,Gordon,Nocioni, and Deng who are all capable of averaging 15-22 ppg but you also have the best defense in the league without Ben Wallace. The Chicago Bulls had one of the best defenses in the league last season and finished in the top five in many defensive categories and with the addition of the best defensive player in the league, I can only see them as the best defensive team in the league. Your last point was excellent only it really explained why the Chicago Bulls are going to be much better than the Detroit Pistons. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">I Guarantee it.</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Sep 13 2006, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You don't seem to realize that Ben Wallace was the heart and soul of the Detroit Pistons. The Detroit Pistons won the championship as defensive team and had a defensive center in the paint that forced opponents to shoot and take low percentage attempts because Ben Wallace was that great of a player. Their opponents couldn't drive on them and became one dimensional and that usually doesn't work out. Nazr Mohammed is one of the softest centers in the league which is why he didn't recieve playing time from the San Antonio Spurs late in the playoff run and is the reason the San Antonio Spurs let him loose. It wasn't free throws that made the Detroit Pistons a good team but it was defense. You can't replace the best defensive player in the league for a soft center like Nazr Mohammed. The Pistons are no longer a great defensive team and opponents will now be able to score points outside and inside against the Detroit Pistons defense. Like I have said before I guarantee the Chicago Bulls finish with a better record than the Detroit Pistons, and when they accomplish that I will come back to this thread and then we'll see who gets owned.</div>Ben Wallace is not at all the heart and soul of the pistons team. That is impossible coming from a player that produced 5 ppg or less in the playoffs. You are forgetting about Rasheed Wallace. He is JUST as much the heart and soul on that team as Ben Wallace ever was. He is also a good interior defender as well as a good shot blocker. Sure, Ben Wallace was a great defender but calling Nazr Muhammad a soft player is not true what so ever. The reason he didnt get sufficient playing time in the playoffs was all because of matchups. Rasho didnt get pt in the playoffs and he is a very solid defender/shot blocker. It had nothing to do with Nazr being incompident. It was 100 percent because of matchups. They had to play small ball in order to keep up with the Mavericks. The pistons might not be as good defensively but they are still a good defensive ball club and a better offensive team. Nazr Muhammad is one of the best offensive rebounding centers in the league. If you watched the 04-05 playoffs where Nazr DID get good playing time, he had several games were he had over 10 rebounds. I dont understand how that can be classified as "soft". Also, he will be able to run the floor and score under the basket when he gets touches unlike Wallace was ever able to. I am a Spurs fan, so dont dig yourself in to a whole by deminishing the skill set of Nazr or I am going to have to embarrass you.And even if the Bulls have a better regular season record than the Pistons (which I still dont think they will), they wont be able to do it in the playoffs. Experience counts for alot more than you think...
The Pistons have no defensive presense inside? Are you kidding me? Rasheed Wallace is one of the top 5 post defenders in the game and the most underrated defender in basketball.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Sep 13 2006, 08:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're joking correct? The Detroit Pistons have no low presence defense and please read my post above and it will explain moree about how much Ben Wallace's departure effected the Detroit Pistons. Nazr Mohammed is soft, and Rasheed Wallace isn't a good rebounder and doesn't play hard defense. They have the right combination of defense and offense. You're right, the Chicago Bulls have the right combination of defense and offense. You have Hinrich,Gordon,Nocioni, and Deng who are all capable of averaging 15-22 ppg but you also have the best defense in the league without Ben Wallace. The Chicago Bulls had one of the best defenses in the league last season and finished in the top five in many defensive categories and with the addition of the best defensive player in the league, I can only see them as the best defensive team in the league. Your last point was excellent only it really explained why the Chicago Bulls are going to be much better than the Detroit Pistons. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">I Guarantee it.</span></div>What are you talking about "they dont have a low post defensive precense? Rasheed Wallace is one of the better shot blockers in the entire league. And he didnt get as many rebounds because Big Ben was the man in the middle taking them all. Now that he is gone, Rasheed will be able to get more. And you saying that Mohammad is soft is not true what so ever. You are making absolute assumptions on the fact that he didnt play that much in the playoffs. When in fact it had nothing to do with him being a bad basketball player but it had everythiing to do with matchups. Get your facts straight.And you say that Hinrich, Gordon, Nocioni, and Deng are all capable of averaging 15-22 ppg. Sure, but are they all going to average 20 ppg? No, because there arent enough shots in the game in order for that to happen. You are going to see that their are going to be problems with their team because there are too many young players that are going to want to shoot shots, and they dont have enough to give out. That is where "teamwork" and "experience" come in to play. The bulls defense is not that great buddy.....besides Hinrich and Wallace it is not that good what so ever. Ben Gordon is lazy, and Deng is not strong enough to guard alot of the SF's and PF's that like to post up.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Sep 13 2006, 08:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ben Wallace is not at all the heart and soul of the pistons team. That is impossible coming from a player that produced 5 ppg or less in the playoffs.</div>Ben Wallace's job is to defend and be a presence in the paint. He's a center and his job is to defend. He averaged 2 spg,2bpg,12 rpg and is the most complete defensive player in the league. When the Detroit Pistons won the championship they didn't need points from Ben Wallace, they needed him to stop Shaquille O'neal and he did just that. Most teams couldn't beat the Lakers because they had no answer to Shaquille O'neal, Ben Wallace gave them that presence and that body to bang Shaq inside the paint.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RashadzMcCantz @ Sep 13 2006, 08:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your arguments are terrible and I honestly thought you were a solid debator. You're joking correct? The Detroit Pistons have no low presence defense and please read my post above and it will explain moree about how much Ben Wallace's departure effected the Detroit Pistons. Nazr Mohammed is soft, and Rasheed Wallace isn't a good rebounder and doesn't play hard defense. They have the right combination of defense and offense. You're right, the Chicago Bulls have the right combination of defense and offense. You have Hinrich,Gordon,Nocioni, and Deng who are all capable of averaging 15-22 ppg but you also have the best defense in the league without Ben Wallace. The Chicago Bulls had one of the best defenses in the league last season and finished in the top five in many defensive categories and with the addition of the best defensive player in the league, I can only see them as the best defensive team in the league. Your last point was excellent only it really explained why the Chicago Bulls are going to be much better than the Detroit Pistons. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">I Guarantee it.</span></div>oh, my argument was terrible? where's your rebuttal.no low post defense?? what about rasheed wallace? Nazr? Nazr is soft? you are seriously just saying things to argue, and it's not making sense? rasheed wallace is a bad rebounder and doesn't play hard defense? do you WATCH BASKETBALL? anyone who has seen Rasheed Wallace play more than once would laugh at that statement.The Bulls have no post offense or go-to guys. Ben Gordon is not ready to be a franchise player on offense yet. He's a good shooter with good ballhandling skills, but he cannot carry an offense.
