Glad we cleared that up. So a Christian Jew is looked the same way as an atheist Jew. This is a total contradiction.
Yes, as long as their mother was Jewish, like mine. Also, and this is just social convention, but although we would both be considered non practicing, the Christian would be looked at with much more disdain because what they are doing is actively going against Jewish beliefs. That doesn't mean that they couldn't become a good Jew again by simply becoming a practicing Jew, but as long as someone believes in Jesus they are considered outsiders and mocked. There is one member of my extended family who became a Christian and they are the butt of jokes when they aren't around. But still, they are loved and invited too all big events. But so many Jews are atheist it commonplace and viewed more as someone who just isn't ready yet. My more religious relatives believe that o day I'll start going to synagogue more frequently and bome a practicing Jew. Another interesting thing that came about mainly in the 70's and 80's are JuBo's (that's a derogatory term) or Jewish Buddhists. I never got into it, but there are some pretty big communities of them and they are interestingly held in pretty high regard even though they are not "good Jews". Basically, a lot of it comes down to social convention, not some prescribed doctrine.
Well things change and there probably was a point years ago when atheism and Judaism were very incompatible. That day may be the same for Christians and Jews. Just like Paul, converting to Christianity; when he was a devote Jew before it.
And this is why I think you'd have a huge problem with your kid becoming a Christian. And what makes you jumping on the christian threads, speaking your mind; then get all butt hurt about coming on yours?
My question is, how do you propose doing that? They seem absolutely diametrically opposed....on any level.
This was a pretty good thread until Mags and ABM joined, very interesting and pretty thoughtful. Like a few said, I think you've got your pitch down, it's just about delivery now. Good luck.
Thanks, ya, a smart 12 year old is going to see through any bs. I'll just be honest and thoughtful. I don't know if he will ever actually have a bar mitzvah, but I would like at a minimum for him to leave the conversation with a sense of his families history.
Hey, just wanted you to know that in no way was I attempting to hijack your thread. I guess it's just that when I saw the terms, atheism and Judaism served up in the same sentence, red lights flashed in my mind. In no way can/do I see the two connected. At any rate, , you and I are Kass's bbf's.
And we wonder why that dame ditched this board. God, here's my advice. Invite Magnifier to the Bar Mitzvah. Display him as an example of what he's running from if he becomes very Jewish. That ought to break his will. Backup plan: Show him samples of Magnifier's spelling.
God, I'd like to go back to the original question and not the side issues of anti-communism and converting Jews to Christianity (in which case of course they cease to be Jews). I am like your nephew. I "made my decision for atheism" at about 13. I am Jewish by culture and tradition. I do not attend services but I observe some holidays. I don't fast on Yom Kippur but I don't work and try to do something meaningful. As to your nephew: A Bar (or Bat, don't forget the girls) Mitzvah is not just learning about Jewish history. It is not just coming of age. It is a literally Son/Daughter of the Commandments. The girl or boy is now an adult in the congregation and responsible for observance of the commandments. While no one requires a declaration of belief, they study the Torah not as history or literature but as coming from G-d. Depending on the degree of orthodoxy or otherwise, they may consider the really nasty parts (killing disobedient children, forcing rape victims to marry rapists, wiping out whole nations) allegorical or outdated or somesuch. But my point is that going to shul for a year or more is not simply an academic study, it is a religious study. And if the boy is an atheist and that is truly what he believes, IMO it would be hypocrisy for him to commit to being the son of commandments he does not consider any more than good ideas to live by (some are, some are not, some are frankly nonsensical). Saying he should do this to get a reward is actually a violation of the commandments. And one could argue it is disrespectful to actual believers if someone goes for a Bar/Bat Mitzvah while thinking it's all nonsense. So it puts you in a very awkward position. I think you should make it clear the decision is his and his alone. I also think you should encourage him to study Jewish history and culture (and the history and culture of others as well) and to critically study Torah, not as divine word but think about what it says. Is it right? Wrong? Likely? Frankly, I don't think atheists should have a Bar/Bat Mizvah because it goes against their belief.
I basically started with your exact belief. It was only after my father came to me (also an atheist Jew) and explained how much it meant to him did I start to think about saying anything at all to my nephew on the subject. But what I have decided is close to what you said. I will be having a discussion with him about the Jewish history and culture, and the importance of family. I don't plan on bringing up the Bar Mitzvah. I just want him to know that he can keep his views and still be proud of his heritage. Right now he is very vocal every time Judaism is brought up in any context that he thinks its hogwash. I don't want to change his mind (I basically share his views), just get him to see that there is some beauty in it also. I want him to embrace the giving nature, the companionate nature and the loving nature of the Jewish people, regardless of religious aspects. My sister has two kids who have gone to Shul their entire life. They will be having a Bat and Bar mitzvah (one of each) soon enough.
It is always difficult when family expectations and our personal beliefs clash. I can compromise on some things - I attended services when there are family events - but I have made it clear in my legal documents I do not want a Jewish funeral as that would disrespect the rabbi and dishonor me. Just dispose of my remains in the least expensive and most environmentally friendly way possible after harvesting any parts that are usable.
I'm just curious if our Jewish posters have any thoughts to share on the re-emerging ultra orthodox Jews of Israel and/or NYC
Another kind of OT question: Do you consider the Old Testament to be part of the Jewish faith, or is it just the Torah? I know most Christians say that the old testament is not for them, just the new testament is the law.
