<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 8 2006, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>His stats were going down for 3 years in a row, and while 23/6/5 isn't bad it still wasn't better than what T-Mac had this year, playing injured. Considering he didn't have Walker, his stats should have been up.</div> You can't just think of it this way: He lost Walker, an All-Star, so his stats should have went up because he's the only star on the roster now. You can't think like that. Why? Because you have to take into account that Walker was his best friend and while he will always still be friends with him, he can't hang with his partner in crime every day. And I know, I know, he's a star in this league he should be able to get over that. OK, then factor in that all this hit him at once: - They traded Antoine. - He got a new coach (Doc), and he had to adjust his game to his system and demands. - He went from being an Eastern Conference contender with veterans to being involved in a major youth movement. That definitely has a big affect on his play. But, as you can see, he's recovered, gotten used to Doc's system, he's bought into the youth, and he's back better than ever.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 8 2006, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>2004-2005, he was horrible in first month due to injury and playing with whole new team and adapting to his first all star center and slowed down game of JVG. After that first month and a half he was at 28PPG for the season, and also added the 6APG and 6RPG to his stats, and was at 30/7/6 in playoffs.T-Mac had a supporting cast considerably worse than what Kobe has right now, and averaged 32/6/5 on 46% shooting, led league in scoring, and pushed top seeded Pistons to 7 games. With Rockets he helped push Mavs to 7 games, the same exact Mavs team that was 2 games away from a title this year. He has not won yet, but it is understandable considering the circumstances he has been in. Paul has done NOTHING without Walker, I don't believe he has even made playoffs without him. Pierce didn't have a great supporting cast last year, but it was better than what T-Mac had in orlando and he still was a few games out of a playoff spot.</div> :worthy:Yall really cant blame McGrady for his 1st round exits, its his team u must blame, McGrady does all in his power but never has any help. This year if healthy will show what he can do with the Rockets.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 8 2006, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You can't just think of it this way: He lost Walker, an All-Star, so his stats should have went up because he's the only star on the roster now. You can't think like that. Why? Because you have to take into account that Walker was his best friend and while he will always still be friends with him, he can't hang with his partner in crime every day.And I know, I know, he's a star in this league he should be able to get over that.OK, then factor in that all this hit him at once:- They traded Antoine.- He got a new coach (Doc), and he had to adjust his game to his system and demands.- He went from being an Eastern Conference contender with veterans to being involved in a major youth movement.That definitely has a big affect on his play. But, as you can see, he's recovered, gotten used to Doc's system, he's bought into the youth, and he's back better than ever.</div>And despite all of that rebuilding of himself, coming back stronger than ever....healthy T-Mac is still better Nice post, but taking 2-3 years to buy into a system is not impressive to me. T-Mac went from playing on by far the worst team I have ever seen outside of himself where he could take all the shots he wanted and where the offense was basically his, to a team that is very restrictive offensively and a team that has lots of other options, including arguably the best center in league. He adjusted in under 2 months, and scored 28PPG from mid-December-end of season, then 30/7/6 in playoffs vs Mavs, including a GW. And the more and more I look at stats and all of that, the more I agree that this is definately one of those debates where you have to watch them play to see exactly why T-Mac is betrer. I feel the stats also prove it, but watching them play it is clearly visible.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 8 2006, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And despite all of that rebuilding of himself, coming back stronger than ever....healthy T-Mac is still better Nice post, but taking 2-3 years to buy into a system is not impressive to me.</div> T-Mac is still better - I never argued that. A healthy Tracy McGrady is one of the best player in the NBA. And taking 2-3 years to buy into a system is pretty hard when nobody is sure of the direction for 2 years! We went from rebuilding, to getting Ricky/Toine/Payton to make a run, then rebuilding with youth AGAIN. That's a very hard adjustment to go through. Especially when other players let you down: - Mark Blount averaged like 11/7 in 03-04 and provided hustle and defense, and he actually played hard. That summer, he got a 6 year contract - then he stopped caring and he became a locker room cancer. - Raef, the main guy they got for Antoine Walker, played a handful of games before he had to call it quits for that season. Then in 05-06 he played excellent, then died down again last season. - He hasn't had a true PG on the team or a vocal leader (besides himself) other than Payton for one year (and obviously Walker is a huge vocal leader). - This team has been plagued with not only too much youth to close out games in the past couple years, but also injuries. I mean a LOT went on with Pierce. A lot. It's not like he got a new coach, had a system/team layed out for him, and he could just go with it. No. He had to adjust multiple times.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 8 2006, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>T-Mac is still better - I never argued that. A healthy Tracy McGrady is one of the best player in the NBA.And taking 2-3 years to buy into a system is pretty hard when nobody is sure of the direction for 2 years! We went from rebuilding, to getting Ricky/Toine/Payton to make a run, then rebuilding with youth AGAIN. That's a very hard adjustment to go through. Especially when other players let you down:- Mark Blount averaged like 11/7 in 03-04 and provided hustle and defense, and he actually played hard. That summer, he got a 6 year contract - then he stopped caring and he became a locker room cancer.- Raef, the main guy they got for Antoine Walker, played a handful of games before he had to call it quits for that season. Then in 05-06 he played excellent, then died down again last season. - He hasn't had a true PG on the team or a vocal leader (besides himself) other than Payton for one year (and obviously Walker is a huge vocal leader).- This team has been plagued with not only too much youth to close out games in the past couple years, but also injuries.I mean a LOT went on with Pierce. A lot. It's not like he got a new coach, had a system/team layed out for him, and he could just go with it. No. He had to adjust multiple times.</div>Same crap happenned with T-Mac in orlando. He never knew what was going on with Grant Hill, they traded his 2nd option halfway through 2002-2003 (Mike Miller) for Drew Gooden, etc... Despite all of that, failing and succeeding, he still put up top 5 player stats and CARRIED team to playoffs 3 years in a row.That has always been a big difference between the 2, T-Mac is the type of player Kobe is, he can literally carry a team, no matter how young/old/complicated offense is/the offense runs, through regular season with fanatastic stats and into playoffs. Pierce just isn't on that level yet, he is just missing that superstar factor that T-Mac has.
Paul Pierce took a low-class of talent Boston Celtics team to the Eastern Conference Finals. Sure, he had a 3-time All-Star in Antoine Walker, but what else did he really have? Friggen Tony Delk? Walter McCarty? Tony Battie, Kenny Anderson, Eric Williams = solid role players, but other than Pierce/Walker this team's talent level was disgusting for a contender. And you talk about T-Mac carrying a team so well - answer me this: why hasn't he ever gotten out of the first round? Paul Pierce was 2 games away from getting to the promise land.
I remembered how bad Tmac's supporting cast was. It was a playoff game against Detroit. Tmac had like 46-47 points and his teamates had a combined 21 points. Now that was sick.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 9 2006, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Paul Pierce took a low-class of talent Boston Celtics team to the Eastern Conference Finals. Sure, he had a 3-time All-Star in Antoine Walker, but what else did he really have? Friggen Tony Delk? Walter McCarty? Tony Battie, Kenny Anderson, Eric Williams = solid role players, but other than Pierce/Walker this team's talent level was disgusting for a contender.And you talk about T-Mac carrying a team so well - answer me this: why hasn't he ever gotten out of the first round? Paul Pierce was 2 games away from getting to the promise land.</div>Walker was averaging 22PPG in season and in playoffs...that is more production out of his 2nd option than T-Mac ever had. Pierce was down in PPG and way down in FG % during that ECF run. in ECF Pierce was at 24PPG on 37% shooting. In the EC, as long as you had a good 2nd option, you could make a run. Pierce had a 22PPG scorer in Walker, and very solid role players with Anderson, Rogers, Delk, etc... T-Mac had no true 2nd option in any of his years in Orlando, and every year in playoffs his stats went up quite a bit and his teammates stats went down. Same with the Mavs series in Houston, he was at 31/7/6 on 46% shooting, but his teammates, outside of Yao, didn't show up.They had to face a Milwaukee team that went to 7 games in ECF in 2000-2001 (went from 27PPG to 34PPG), a good Charolette team in 2001-2002 (T-Mac went up from 26PPG to 31PPG in that series), and in 2002-2003 pushed top seeded Pistons to 7 games (averaged season numbers), and I already discussed the Mavs series in Houston (and remember, that same Mavs team were 2 games away from a 'chip this year). Pierce never had to carry a team to playoffs without a 20PPG scorer by his side outside of one year where his team was 36-46, and they were swept in playoffs with pierce averaging 20PPG.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 9 2006, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Walker was averaging 22PPG in season and in playoffs...that is more production out of his 2nd option than T-Mac ever had. Pierce was down in PPG and way down in FG % during that ECF run. in ECF Pierce was at 24PPG on 37% shooting. In the EC, as long as you had a good 2nd option, you could make a run. Pierce had a 22PPG scorer in Walker, and very solid role players with Anderson, Rogers, Delk, etc... T-Mac had no true 2nd option in any of his years in Orlando, and every year in playoffs his stats went up quite a bit and his teammates stats went down. Same with the Mavs series in Houston, he was at 31/7/6 on 46% shooting, but his teammates, outside of Yao, didn't show up.</div> You want to talk about Paul Pierce in the ECF series? You want to talk about carrying a team? How about Game 3 of that series when we were down by 21 points at the end of the 3rd quarter, at home too. What happened? Pierce owned the 4th quarter and carried that team. He scored 18 or 19 points in that 4th quarter and we won the game. I can't even stress how many times Paul Pierce has carried the Celtics to a victory. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I already discussed the Mavs series in Houston (and remember, that same Mavs team were 2 games away from a 'chip this year). Pierce never had to carry a team to playoffs without a 20PPG scorer by his side outside of one year where his team was 36-46, and they were swept in playoffs with pierce averaging 20PPG.</div> OK, let's talk about that Mavs series, T-Mac's star sidekick, and how they lost. T-Mac was given a top center in the NBA who was producing big numbers. Like you said, his teammtes didn't show up besides Yao. Well that's Pierce/Walker all over again. Outside of those two, the Celtics supporting cast in those playoff runs were piss-poor, just like how the Rockets supporting cast was in that series vs. Dallas.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 9 2006, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You want to talk about Paul Pierce in the ECF series? You want to talk about carrying a team? How about Game 3 of that series when we were down by 21 points at the end of the 3rd quarter, at home too. What happened? Pierce owned the 4th quarter and carried that team. He scored 18 or 19 points in that 4th quarter and we won the game. I can't even stress how many times Paul Pierce has carried the Celtics to a victory.</div>One game. For series he was at 24PPG on 37% shooting. I can name dozens of times T-Mac has carried his team to victory, hell he even did it this year, injured, more than once too. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>OK, let's talk about that Mavs series, T-Mac's star sidekick, and how they lost. T-Mac was given a top center in the NBA who was producing big numbers. Like you said, his teammtes didn't show up besides Yao. Well that's Pierce/Walker all over again. Outside of those two, the Celtics supporting cast in those playoff runs were piss-poor, just like how the Rockets supporting cast was in that series vs. Dallas.</div>Despite his fairly big averages, Yao had games of 11, 15 and 8 in that series, and no one else showed up. They faced the Dallas Mavericks, at the time the hottest team in league and the same team that went to the Finals this year. They were, top to bottom, the much better team, but T-MAC oushed the series so far. Walker played very well in playoffs, Pierce didn't, and because Pierce had that 2nd option they did well in a weak EC.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 9 2006, 01:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Despite his fairly big averages, Yao had games of 11, 15 and 8 in that series, and no one else showed up. They faced the Dallas Mavericks, at the time the hottest team in league and the same team that went to the Finals this year. They were, top to bottom, the much better team, but T-MAC oushed the series so far. Walker played very well in playoffs, Pierce didn't, and because Pierce had that 2nd option they did well in a weak EC.</div> LMAO. Antoine Walker is such a streaky player. How many times has Toine went 7-19 or whatever from the field? Plenty. Walker definitely had his off-days too, not even just in that New Jersey series, but all the time.
It was not the same Mavs team that went to the Finals. Just because they didn't change a lot didn't mean they were the same. In the next series they were 1-3 vs. a Phoenix team without Joe Johnson, the same Phoenix team that got raped by the Spurs. They were no where near being contenders for the championship that year. They were right there with the Sonics, those two teams were at the level that the Rockets and Clippers are on right now. The Mavs improved greatly from that season. The Rockets lost to a worse Mavs team than the one that was in the Finals this year. And you think it's everyone else's fault when their team doesen't go farther in the playoffs but when it's your favorite player suddenly it's the teams fault, and T-Mac had to carry them. Didn't the Rockets win the first 2 at Dallas? Just for having Yao his supporting cast was better than any LeBron has had, or KG has had except for the one season when KG went to the WCF. He also had Mike James who played well off the bench and other good role players like Dikembe who did well backing up Yao. TMac's team has had a 2-0 lead and a 3-1 lead and he has had 4 opportunities to get past the first round and he hasn't. Where was he in the Game 7 embarrassment? Just because he's your favorite player should've give him a free pass unless you want to prove all your past arguments wrong.I want to say though that I do think T-Mac is better and is a top 10 player. Just not by as much as you make it seem to be and he is not a top 5 player, especially with your "winning in the playoffs is everything" standards.
The fact is if T-Mac gets the credit for 'carrying' his team to the playoffs then he should also should responsibility for the failure of the team to succeed in the playoffs as well.And anytime a team is up 3-1 and doesn't win the series to me means a huge failure on EVERYONE'S part with that team. Why do you think that Kobe took so much flak in this year's playoffs?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 9 2006, 01:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It was not the same Mavs team that went to the Finals. Just because they didn't change a lot didn't mean they were the same. In the next series they were 1-3 vs. a Phoenix team without Joe Johnson, the same Phoenix team that got raped by the Spurs. They were no where near being contenders for the championship that year. They were right there with the Sonics, those two teams were at the level that the Rockets and Clippers are on right now. The Mavs improved greatly from that season. The Rockets lost to a worse Mavs team than the one that was in the Finals this year.</div>You bet it was the same team. With Avery they wer eon fire at end of season, and practically same lineup. They became a bit better defensively, but they were the same exact team. If the Suns had Amare this year we may have different NBA champions.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And you think it's everyone else's fault when their team doesen't go farther in the playoffs but when it's your favorite player suddenly it's the teams fault, and T-Mac had to carry them. Didn't the Rockets win the first 2 at Dallas? Just for having Yao his supporting cast was better than any LeBron has had, or KG has had except for the one season when KG went to the WCF. He also had Mike James who played well off the bench and other good role players like Dikembe who did well backing up Yao. TMac's team has had a 2-0 lead and a 3-1 lead and he has had 4 opportunities to get past the first round and he hasn't. Where was he in the Game 7 embarrassment? Just because he's your favorite player should've give him a free pass unless you want to prove all your past arguments wrong.</div>It's one thing when your numbers go up in playoffs, hit GW's, and your teammates are ones that don't show up, and another thing when your stats go down and you lose a series. Don't bring LeBron or KG into the arguement, LeBron had to face an EASY first round matchup this year and he had 2 arguable all stars by his side, and KG has proven just as much as T-Mac has in playoffs.Mike James? His stats were down in playoffs. Deke? Down in production. Wesley? Barry? Both down in production. Sura? Way down in production. Least we not forget Juwan Howard, their 3rd option, didn't play in the series.I put a huge blame on him for the 3-1 blunder in Orlando, but against the Mavs they ran into a team that was on fire, and top to bottom was a much better team. He raised his stats in every category, hit a GW, but his teammates simply weren't there. As I showed, Yao failed to score over 15pts in 3 games, even scoring single digits in one of them, and from watching the games I can tell you he dropped a TON of easy passes in lane from T-Mac at the end of I believe game 5 that could have sealed a win. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I want to say though that I do think T-Mac is better and is a top 10 player. Just not by as much as you make it seem to be and he is not a top 5 player, especially with your "winning in the playoffs is everything" standards.</div>When healthy, he is right on border of top 5 (I put him at #6 on my list). He is just that kind of talent, when healthy is capable of doing something like what Kobe did this year. He is that dynamic of a player, and unlike say KG, has never had homecourt advantage in playoffs, and lost 7 STRAIGHT YEARS IN FIRST ROUND. Every time he has been in playoffs his numbers have been up, sometimes way up. In 2002-2003 he didn't have a 2nd option or great role players to beat the #1 seed in East, and in 2004-2005 didn't have his 3rd option, and role players didn't show up. He still pushed both of those championship contenders to 7 games (and did a helluva number on Dirk). Needless to say, I give him much more of a pass on not getting past the 1st round than KG does, or Pierce who has gotten there once without Walker (and his stats went down to 20PPG in that series). For Pierce to get the same kind of respect that I give T-Mac, in terms of playoffs, he needs to lead his team there and show he can takeover when teammates aren't producing (which a young team like the Celtics will probably do). CelticBalla- Walker had 1 game scoring 15pts or under in the NJ series, and he has never shot a great %. But in playoffs was at season averages (above in FG %), Pierce was below. In other words, I put more blame on Pierce than I do his teammates. In 2003-2004, Pierce's stats went down to 21PPG on 34% shooting, despite no one else scoring more than 14PPG. His stats went up a bit in 2004-2005 playoffs with Walker there, but was he not ejected from eithe rgame 5 or 6? Then look at T-Mac, and despite any drop in production from teammates his production has always gone up, hit GW's, etc...falconman- Kobe has not been blasted as much as T-Mac has for being up 3-1, then losing to the much better team. Why? Kobe has been past that with a superstar by his side. T-Mac has never had that luxory, in series vs Pistons he had no reliable 2nd option capable of scoring 15PPG or more. Kobe even had that with Lamar, T-Mac had no one. With Rockets, he played his ass off against the Mavs, hit GW's and raised his stats a ton while doing a number on Dirk, but his teammates just weren't there, his 3rd option didn't even play, and the other team was far better top to bottom.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 9 2006, 11:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You bet it was the same team. With Avery they wer eon fire at end of season, and practically same lineup. They became a bit better defensively, but they were the same exact team. If the Suns had Amare this year we may have different NBA champions.It's one thing when your numbers go up in playoffs, hit GW's, and your teammates are ones that don't show up, and another thing when your stats go down and you lose a series. Don't bring LeBron or KG into the arguement, LeBron had to face an EASY first round matchup this year and he had 2 arguable all stars by his side, and KG has proven just as much as T-Mac has in playoffs.Mike James? His stats were down in playoffs. Deke? Down in production. Wesley? Barry? Both down in production. Sura? Way down in production. Least we not forget Juwan Howard, their 3rd option, didn't play in the series.I put a huge blame on him for the 3-1 blunder in Orlando, but against the Mavs they ran into a team that was on fire, and top to bottom was a much better team. He raised his stats in every category, hit a GW, but his teammates simply weren't there. As I showed, Yao failed to score over 15pts in 3 games, even scoring single digits in one of them, and from watching the games I can tell you he dropped a TON of easy passes in lane from T-Mac at the end of I believe game 5 that could have sealed a win. When healthy, he is right on border of top 5 (I put him at #6 on my list). He is just that kind of talent, when healthy is capable of doing something like what Kobe did this year. He is that dynamic of a player, and unlike say KG, has never had homecourt advantage in playoffs, and lost 7 STRAIGHT YEARS IN FIRST ROUND. Every time he has been in playoffs his numbers have been up, sometimes way up. In 2002-2003 he didn't have a 2nd option or great role players to beat the #1 seed in East, and in 2004-2005 didn't have his 3rd option, and role players didn't show up. He still pushed both of those championship contenders to 7 games (and did a helluva number on Dirk). Needless to say, I give him much more of a pass on not getting past the 1st round than KG does, or Pierce who has gotten there once without Walker (and his stats went down to 20PPG in that series). For Pierce to get the same kind of respect that I give T-Mac, in terms of playoffs, he needs to lead his team there and show he can takeover when teammates aren't producing (which a young team like the Celtics will probably do). CelticBalla- Walker had 1 game scoring 15pts or under in the NJ series, and he has never shot a great %. But in playoffs was at season averages (above in FG %), Pierce was below. In other words, I put more blame on Pierce than I do his teammates. In 2003-2004, Pierce's stats went down to 21PPG on 34% shooting, despite no one else scoring more than 14PPG. His stats went up a bit in 2004-2005 playoffs with Walker there, but was he not ejected from eithe rgame 5 or 6? Then look at T-Mac, and despite any drop in production from teammates his production has always gone up, hit GW's, etc...falconman- Kobe has not been blasted as much as T-Mac has for being up 3-1, then losing to the much better team. Why? Kobe has been past that with a superstar by his side. T-Mac has never had that luxory, in series vs Pistons he had no reliable 2nd option capable of scoring 15PPG or more. Kobe even had that with Lamar, T-Mac had no one. With Rockets, he played his ass off against the Mavs, hit GW's and raised his stats a ton while doing a number on Dirk, but his teammates just weren't there, his 3rd option didn't even play, and the other team was far better top to bottom.</div>Mavs fans could maybe back me up one this but the Mavs team last year WAS much better. Avery had no experience two years ago and was outcoached in the playoffs. He was much better better last year, winning the coach of the year. Dirk also made improvements being more agressive and a more unstoppable player. Young players like Howard and Harris also progressed and their D was much, much, much better last year. With Avery they showed a little defense but it was still very pathetic. The next year when they got Diop and Griffin and they had one more year under Avery then their D greatly improved. The Suns didn't have JJ and Q was hurting more than helping and they still had their way with them. Also at that point they had the worst defensive team you would probably ever see in the NBA with only 1 player even knowing what defense met and they still whooped them. That was NOT the same Mavs team.LeBron had no all-stars by his side. What about all the games LeBron played well and no one on his team showed up? You blame it all on LeBron when he had very little help in the playoffs at all. Larry Hughes was non-existent and Ilgauskas was nothing compared to Yao. TMac's role players were better and were doing their jobs. With a lead in the series and then homecourt after the first two games they should have won that. LeBron, in his first year in the playoffs, at the age of what? 21? Carried his team on his back to game 7 of the 2nd round when TMac in 4 tries couldn't even get to the 2nd round. Sure LeBron faced an easy first round team but that's because he carried his team to a better record and even though LeBron played the Wizards, T-Mac's teams have had big leads in playoff series but they couldn't finish the teams off. KG never, except for 1 year, had a team like T-Mac's and KG's playoff stats didn't go down and you are saying he's a loser(not as harsh as it sounds, but I mean not a winner) and bad leader when he showed up when given good teammates. I watched that series and the role players did what they needed to do and Yao was pretty damn good in that series. After getting an early lead they should have won. They only needed 2/3 at home.BTW, Yao is a much better teammate than Walker. Like CelticBalla said, while Walker was good, he was also very streaky and Yao was just better in the playoffs. They are both good 2nd options, the difference is that Pierce was able to take his team to the ECF and T-Mac still couldn't pass the first round.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 9 2006, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Needless to say, I give him much more of a pass on not getting past the 1st round than KG does, or Pierce who has gotten there once without Walker (and his stats went down to 20PPG in that series). For Pierce to get the same kind of respect that I give T-Mac, in terms of playoffs, he needs to lead his team there and show he can takeover when teammates aren't producing (which a young team like the Celtics will probably do). </div> :HAHAHA: Pierce need to lead his team before you can give him the respect you give tmac, is that what I heard ??? t-mac never lead his team past the first round and pls don't tell me that it was his teammates fault.:HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>CelticBalla- Walker had 1 game scoring 15pts or under in the NJ series, and he has never shot a great %. But in playoffs was at season averages (above in FG %), Pierce was below. In other words, I put more blame on Pierce than I do his teammates. In 2003-2004, Pierce's stats went down to 21PPG on 34% shooting, despite no one else scoring more than 14PPG. His stats went up a bit in 2004-2005 playoffs with Walker there, but was he not ejected from eithe rgame 5 or 6? Then look at T-Mac, and despite any drop in production from teammates his production has always gone up, hit GW's, etc...</div> OK, was Walker not suspended for a game? The same game that Pierce dominated. The same game that we blew them out, IN INDIANA??!?! Please don't bring up Pierce's ejection. Walker was suspended for an entire game, and Pierce came out and turned it on. We won by like 30 points that game.
[quote name='ASUFan22' post='173640' date='Oct 9 2006, 03:25 PM']Mavs fans could maybe back me up one this but the Mavs team last year WAS much better. Avery had no experience two years ago and was outcoached in the playoffs. He was much better better last year, winning the coach of the year. Dirk also made improvements being more agressive and a more unstoppable player. Young players like Howard and Harris also progressed and their D was much, much, much better last year. With Avery they showed a little defense but it was still very pathetic. The next year when they got Diop and Griffin and they had one more year under Avery then their D greatly improved. The Suns didn't have JJ and Q was hurting more than helping and they still had their way with them. Also at that point they had the worst defensive team you would probably ever see in the NBA with only 1 player even knowing what defense met and they still whooped them. That was NOT the same Mavs team.[/quote]Avery had experience, and the Mavs were responding to his system right away. They went on a huge streak at end of season, and while right now they are a bit better defensivelyThe Suns had the low post presence they were missing this year, and that is why they beat the Mavs. Without that presence, Marion played lower than his usual play, and Nash was only major threat. Amare averaged 28PPG against Mavs the year before. Considering that each year the series went to 6 games, I feel Amare made that difference much more than the Mavs slightly improved defensive play. T-Mac's role players were NOT doing their jobs. Every role player outside of Yao (who had 3 games under 15pts and didn't make up for the loss of Juwan and low production of others) was down in their stats, and against a much better team like the Mavs that is a very bad thing. His 3rd option was out whole series, Sura was down a few PPG and way down in APG and RPG, and everyone else didn't show like they did in season. Bron had homecourt, and an overall better team than the Wizards. While his teammates didn't play great, they still were good and hit a GW for Bron to win series (and also had some ref help in game 3). T-Mac has NEVER had that luxory, and in each playoff series he has been in his teammates haven't shown up and his stats have increased like Bron's did against Wizards. What happenned with bron against Pistons? His stats dropped quite a bit, despite teammates not playing well, and that is why I usually criticize Bron in that series. Bron is a better player than T-Mac, so it's odd that you keep bringing him up.T-Mac NEVER had as good of a team in Orlando as Bron had with Cleveland. If he had Big Z, Hughes, Gooden and those other veteran role player he woulda made it to the ECF. But he didn't, he just had Gooden, yet still pushed top seeded Pistons to 7 games. The Mavs were far harder than the Wizards, period.KG had 7x as many years than T-Mac, being in 5th/4th/3rd seed in West, to get past 1st round. He had Troy Hudson, Wally Sczerb, a 13PPG/6APG Chauncey Billups, Steph, among other very solid role players. Yao was not good in playoffs. Having 3 games under 15pts, with 3rd option out and other players outside of T-Mac not performing is NOT having a good series, and is streakier than Walker who had only one game under 16pts. The difference between Pierce and Mac? Mac played a better team in 1st round than the Celtics lost to in the ECF, and lost to next year in semi's. Mac's stats have always increased in playoffs, while Pierce hasn't been a winner without Walker and appears to decrease in stats in playoffs. T-Mac was not lucky enough to be blessed with a reliable 2nd option who could score 15PPG+ in that weak eastern conference that Pierce had. T-Mac has shown throughout career he can carry below average teams to playoffs and make noise with some of best stats in league, while Pierce hasn't shown that. With Houston he played better in that series than Pierce has ever played in any series, but teammates weren't there and they were beat by a much better overall team. [quote name='lakersfoelyfe' post='173674' date='Oct 9 2006, 04:32 PM']:HAHAHA: Pierce need to lead his team before you can give him the respect you give tmac, is that what I heard ??? t-mac never lead his team past the first round and pls don't tell me that it was his teammates fault.:HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA:[/quote]Uhhh...it was. He never had sh*t in orlando, and in Houston Howard was out, Sura, Wesley, Barry and the others were down in production, Yao had 3 game sunder 15pts....yet they still pushed the MUCH better Mavs team to 7 games because T-Mac averaged 31/7/6 on 46% shooting, including a GW. It was not his fault they lsot that series.[quote name='CelticBalla32' post='173701' date='Oct 9 2006, 04:52 PM']OK, was Walker not suspended for a game? The same game that Pierce dominated. The same game that we blew them out, IN INDIANA??!?! Please don't bring up Pierce's ejection. Walker was suspended for an entire game, and Pierce came out and turned it on. We won by like 30 points that game.[/quote]Pierce did it in I believe game 6, facing elimination ins eries...in the 4th quarter! That is totally irresponsible of him, and if T-Mac did same thing I'd also blast him. I don't care what walker does, I am not arguing he is the leader or the best player on the team. Pierce was totally wrong there.
what do you mean avery had the experience, he was the assistant coach that year for the most part...........don't start saying something just because that's what you want to believe in.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>T-Mac NEVER had as good of a team in Orlando as Bron had with Cleveland. If he had Big Z, Hughes, Gooden and those other veteran role player he woulda made it to the ECF. But he didn't, he just had Gooden, yet still pushed top seeded Pistons to 7 games. The Mavs were far harder than the Wizards, period.</div> going back to wade/lebron...well gee...all I know is what has happened so far. Who's to say that T-Mac would have beaten the Pistons when he couldn't do it with a 3-1 lead? And he had FOUR chances to pass the first round and he didn't, blah blah blah... And no, Avery had very little experience. Sure the Mavs finished the season strong, but so did the Nuggets and look what happened to them. The Suns team last year was much better than the 3 players the year before. Last year's Suns team, even with injuries, had more people producing and Diaw was giving them some trouble with his speed at center. Didn't he average like 20 points in the series and get a game-winner? The team from 2 years ago would've been beaten pretty good by the Mavs of last year. The Mavs didn't slightly improve. They took a big step forward on D and Nowitzki was even more unstoppable on offense. They had some young players who improved also. Avery was not the coach he was this year. It's just plain stupid to say that the Mavs were the same team. Plenty of things changed. Amare is great but if you put up the team from two years ago against this Mavs team it would be an easy series for the Mavs. I can't believe you don't see how much better the Mavs were this year. The defense and coaching wasn't even close to the 30 games the season before.
