<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 9 2006, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Pierce did it in I believe game 6, facing elimination ins eries...in the 4th quarter! That is totally irresponsible of him, and if T-Mac did same thing I'd also blast him. I don't care what walker does, I am not arguing he is the leader or the best player on the team. Pierce was totally wrong there.</div> OK, Walker getting into a scuffle with JO - whatever. But then he lost control, I believe he pushed a ref out of the way, and he totally lost it. Had he not done that, he wouldn't have been suspended. Are you seriously telling me that wasn't as bad, just because he's not the best players on the team? Are you kidding me? That's like Yao losing control (even though I don't think he can even get mad lol) and getting suspended for a game. I just don't understand how or why you are giving Walker a free pass for getting suspended, then just bashing Pierce. If Yao got suspended for a game, you would be using that as a reason why "it wasn't T-Mac's fault." So stop going against it just because it's Pierce.
ASUFan is right, it was a different Mavs team. Nitro, you say the Mavs were on some kind of streak at the end of the season with Avery, but they were already on that pace before they exchanged coaches. Nothing changed when he became coach. They were, however, a better team the next year. The 04-05 squad felt innocuous when we played the Suns. Nothing we did against them worked, because Avery couldn't make proper adjustments (We barely squeaked past the Rockets, for that matter). Against the Spurs this past year, he could. It showed. I don't know what else to tell you if you can't see that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Oct 9 2006, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>what do you mean avery had the experience, he was the assistant coach that year for the most part...........don't start saying something just because that's what you want to believe in.</div>He was in the Mavs system and with their players before. He was a PG for his whole career, and a PG on a championship team. The jump from assistent coach to head coach was MUCH smaller than a coach who had never played in the NBA and never had success in NBA. For most of 2004-2005 he was in charge of things, with Nellie in and out, and him giving Avery more control. He was then named head coach, and the team responded well to his philosophies.ASUFan-<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>going back to wade/lebron...well gee...all I know is what has happened so far. Who's to say that T-Mac would have beaten the Pistons when he couldn't do it with a 3-1 lead? And he had FOUR chances to pass the first round and he didn't, blah blah blah... And no, Avery had very little experience. Sure the Mavs finished the season strong, but so did the Nuggets and look what happened to them. The Suns team last year was much better than the 3 players the year before. Last year's Suns team, even with injuries, had more people producing and Diaw was giving them some trouble with his speed at center. Didn't he average like 20 points in the series and get a game-winner? The team from 2 years ago would've been beaten pretty good by the Mavs of last year. The Mavs didn't slightly improve. They took a big step forward on D and Nowitzki was even more unstoppable on offense. They had some young players who improved also. Avery was not the coach he was this year. It's just plain stupid to say that the Mavs were the same team. Plenty of things changed. Amare is great but if you put up the team from two years ago against this Mavs team it would be an easy series for the Mavs. I can't believe you don't see how much better the Mavs were this year. The defense and coaching wasn't even close to the 30 games the season before.</div>Game 2, Orlando vs Detroit. T-Mac scores 46pts...rest of team scores 31 points. Game 7 vs Detroit, LeBron scores 27....rest of team scores 34pts...see what I'm getting at? People always use that Game 7 for Bron as an excuse, that he was SO CLOSE and that his teammates didn't show up....look at what happenned to Mac. And that kind of thing, while not to that magnitude, happenned the year before vs the Hornets. Even in series vs Mavs, game 4, T-Mac scored 36, rest of team scored 57. And then in game 7, outside of Yao and Mac, the rest of team combined for 16pts. The Nuggets were not so good this year because of countless injuries, not because of one simple hot streak. Mavs carried that hot streak over to this year. They improved defensively this year, but were N-O-T a lockdown defensive team, and showed throughout playoffs they still aren't. The Suns were a better team in 2004-2005. Yes, they improved defenisvely and were a bit deeper this past season, but without the low post presence in Amare they lacked a LOT of what they had the year before (blah blah blah they only scored 2PPG less, it was a HUGE blow to their offense and defense). Again,those 28PPG against Mavs would have opened a LOT up on the perimeter, Marion would have a better series, Nash would have scored more...they would have beaten the Mavs IMO. In the back to back years they played each other the series went to 6 games, I am positive the presence of Amare offensively and defensively would have made more of an impact than the Mavs defense. I mean c'mon, look at the stats: series vs Mavs with Amare-117PPG, series without Amare-101PPG. In games Mavs beat Suns this year, they beat them by about 9PPG....I am sure Amare would have made that up alone, let alone his ability to get others open shots due to the attention he gets that the Mavs didn't need to worry about this year.CelticBalla-<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>OK, Walker getting into a scuffle with JO - whatever. But then he lost control, I believe he pushed a ref out of the way, and he totally lost it. Had he not done that, he wouldn't have been suspended. Are you seriously telling me that wasn't as bad, just because he's not the best players on the team? Are you kidding me? That's like Yao losing control (even though I don't think he can even get mad lol) and getting suspended for a game. I just don't understand how or why you are giving Walker a free pass for getting suspended, then just bashing Pierce.If Yao got suspended for a game, you would be using that as a reason why "it wasn't T-Mac's fault." So stop going against it just because it's Pierce.</div>No, it is still bad, but we are not talking about Antwan Walker, we're talking about Pierce, the leader of the team. He should not be suspended when facing elimination, he's gotta hold that emotion.If Yao lost control and they ended up losing the series because of that, then yes I'd put a HUGE amount of blame on him. But the Celtics won the game without Walker, so you can't put much blame on him. The fact that Pierce would lose control in that kind of situation is what bothers me, not so much how it affected the series.Justice-No team, not even the Spurs, could adjust to the Nash-Amare pick and roll. I am sure nothing would have changed there. And they were on a 16-2 streak to end season.
Even though I think you're way off I like that you are an Amare fan and I agree on the Tmac Pierce comparison so I'll leave you alone, but the Mavs were better. The Nash-Amare pick and roll was good but it doesen't matter when you face a team like the Spurs who won in 5. The Mavs of last year would've beaten the Suns team. Especially if Joe Johnson wasn't there again and Q was, shooting 7 3's a game and making 1 if he got lucky. :no1:
W T F so what if he was the assistant coach and a pg for a championship team, what kind of a reasoning is that...............experience is a big thing and can only gain by being in that situation.Do you have your own basketball league running in your head that you don't get what people are trying to say.Just because he was in the system as an assistant doesn't mean that he had enough experience as a head coach, who are you to say that it doesn't make much of a difference. Is that how it is in your fantasy league that you have running in your thick skull.I'm sorry but to say that Avery Johnson has enough experience just because he was a pg for a championship team is B U L L S H I T. The team responding well doesn't mean anything, we are talking about avery's experience not how his team did.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He was in the Mavs system and with their players before. He was a PG for his whole career, and a PG on a championship team. The jump from assistent coach to head coach was MUCH smaller than a coach who had never played in the NBA and never had success in NBA. For most of 2004-2005 he was in charge of things, with Nellie in and out, and him giving Avery more control. He was then named head coach, and the team responded well to his philosophies.</div>YOU DIDN'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING YOU JUST GAVE US A STORY OF HOW AVERY GOT HIS JOB AS A HEAD COACH !!!He is such a better coach the following year and that's because of the experienced he gained in his first playoff experience as a coach. That's the difference between the Mavs that beat your Rockets and the Mavs that went to the finals.
So you're telling me that the Mavs that beat the 04-05 Rockets in 7 games is the same as the Mavs that beat the Spurs in 7 this past year, thereby implying that the 04-05 Rockets = the 05-06 Spurs. Yeah, okay.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 9 2006, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Even though I think you're way off I like that you are an Amare fan and I agree on the Tmac Pierce comparison so I'll leave you alone, but the Mavs were better. The Nash-Amare pick and roll was good but it doesen't matter when you face a team like the Spurs who won in 5. The Mavs of last year would've beaten the Suns team. Especially if Joe Johnson wasn't there again and Q was, shooting 7 3's a game and making 1 if he got lucky. :no1:</div>Amare dropped 37PPG on the Spurs, the reason they lost to the Spurs was lack of play from everyone else, specifically Marion. Look at when they played Spurs this year, they scored 7 less PPG then they did in playoffs with Amare, and were shooting 30% from 3 whereas in the playoffs they shots 41% (and you can bet that's because without Amare the Spurs zoned in on the perimeter, thus proving my point that without him they take a huge blow).And Q shot 38% from 3 against Mavs, and JJ played 2 of the games against Mavs.lakerfoelyfe-<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>W T F so what if he was the assistant coach and a pg for a championship team, what kind of a reasoning is that...............experience is a big thing and can only gain by being in that situation.Do you have your own basketball league running in your head that you don't get what people are trying to say.Just because he was in the system as an assistant doesn't mean that he had enough experience as a head coach, who are you to say that it doesn't make much of a difference. Is that how it is in your fantasy league that you have running in your thick skull.I'm sorry but to say that Avery Johnson has enough experience just because he was a pg for a championship team is B U L L S H I T. The team responding well doesn't mean anything, we are talking about avery's experience not how his team did.</div>EXACTLY, being a PG gave him TONS of expeirence, and that same perspective is what made him COY. Sure, another year of head coaching made him a better coach, but his same philosophies were in effect when he took over. Hell, he tried pounding it into their heads when nellie was still coach, considering he did a ton of the coaching, and even was head coach a few times before Nellie called it quits.You honestly believe that him being in Nellie's system for 2 years, getting to play with his star player, seeing how they run things, didn't help him out at all? Or how about him having a big say in the Mavs coaching scheme well before Nellie resigned? How about him head coaching the Mavs before Nellie resigned? He was a better coach this year because of experience, especially in playoffs, but his same philosophies on how to approach the game have remained the same. How he approached the defensive end of the basketball remains the same, and they were buying into it right away, just check the stats out. I acknowledged they became a better defensive team this year, but that transformation was in effect before the 2005-2006 season.Justice-No, but the Mavs have never matched up well with the Rockets, the Spurs do. No one on the Mavs can stop McGrady, while Spurs have Bowen, arguably the best defender in the league. And they still aren't the defensive team the Spurs are.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 8 2006, 03:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There was just a topic about this a few months ago, but whatever.T-Mac is my pick. Better, more dynamic scorer. Much better passer, equal rebounder, and just as good of a defender. Biggest thing to me is how each carries/carried their teams. The 2 years Pierce got past 1st round he had Walker who was getting 20PPG+. Without Walker, Pierce's stats went down, down, down, and he led his team nowhere. He had a breakout year last year with worse supporting cast, but T-Mac proved he could get better numbers with a worse cast AND get to playoffs with those teams.To me it's easily Mac.</div>This is funny.TMac? The TMac who dogged it in Orlando and demanded a trade? He's a baby. They have the same FG%, Pierce is a better three point shooter, rebounder, and defender, not to mention he's tougher, more clutch, and a better leader. Has McGrady ever got out of the first round? Not to mention, Pierce has never had the opportunity to play with a dominant big man like Yao. The best player he's ever played with is Antoine Walker, a bench player for the Heat. Pierce's stats went down and down? You are incredibly misinformed. The year after Walker left, Pierce had one "off" year, putting up 23/7/5. The next year, he put up 22/7/4, with an excellent FG% and 3P%, leading the Celtics to the playoffs. He took only 15 shots/game that year. This past year, he put up 27/7/5, with very good shooting numbers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 9 2006, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I acknowledged they became a better defensive team this year, but that transformation was in effect before the 2005-2006 season.</div>That's the difference between the Mavs that beat your team and the one that reach the finals............they were a BETTER DEFENSIVE TEAM this year so for you to say that it's the same team is a joke.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bostonfan23 @ Oct 9 2006, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This is funny.TMac? The TMac who dogged it in Orlando and demanded a trade? He's a baby. They have the same FG%, Pierce is a better three point shooter, rebounder, and defender, not to mention he's tougher, more clutch, and a better leader. Has McGrady ever got out of the first round? Not to mention, Pierce has never had the opportunity to play with a dominant big man like Yao. The best player he's ever played with is Antoine Walker, a bench player for the Heat. Pierce's stats went down and down? You are incredibly misinformed. The year after Walker left, Pierce had one "off" year, putting up 23/7/5. The next year, he put up 22/7/4, with an excellent FG% and 3P%, leading the Celtics to the playoffs. He took only 15 shots/game that year. This past year, he put up 27/7/5, with very good shooting numbers.</div>He never demanded a trade, he wanted to stay in Orlando.T-Mac takes around 150 more 3PA's per season, and shoots it 2% worse than Pierce for career. You can say Pierce is a better 3p shooter, but the margin is very thin. Better rebounder? He averages .1RPG more than T-Mac for career, and past few seasons about .2-.3 more, so again, very minimal. Defender? I'll give ya that. Clutch? http://www.82games.com/random12.htm Again, I'll give ya it, but it's a small margin, and T-Mac has GW's under his belt from playoffs and his stats always go up big in playoffs, while Pierce's either stay around the same or go down.Pierce, statistically, went downhill for 3 years in a row in PPG, all the way down to 22PPG. His FG % those 2 seasons were also much lower than his usual standards.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Oct 9 2006, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That's the difference between the Mavs that beat your team and the one that reach the finals............they were a BETTER DEFENSIVE TEAM this year so for you to say that it's the same team is a joke.</div>But the difference in their defense wasn't very big at all. When Avery took over they let up around 96PPG to the 93PPG they let up this season. By the time they had 20-30 games to buy into it, they were practically the same team you saw this year. Last 10 games they let up only 92PPG.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>No, it is still bad, but we are not talking about Antwan Walker, we're talking about Pierce, the leader of the team. He should not be suspended when facing elimination, he's gotta hold that emotion.</div> Pierce was not suspended at all, he was ejected in the 4th quarter. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If Yao lost control and they ended up losing the series because of that, then yes I'd put a HUGE amount of blame on him. But the Celtics won the game without Walker, so you can't put much blame on him. The fact that Pierce would lose control in that kind of situation is what bothers me, not so much how it affected the series.</div> OK, but why did we win that game without Walker? Because PAUL PIERCE stepped up. And I love how you say "but the Celtics won that game, so you can't put much blame on him." OK, if you are going to play that way, then are you saying shouldn't blame Pierce for getting ejected in game 6, just because we won the game? lol see, you just contradicted yourself. It was wrong of Pierce to do that, and it was wrong for Toine to do what he did.
But the difference in their defense wasn't very big at all. When Avery took over they let up around 96PPG to the 93PPG they let up this season. By the time they had 20-30 games to buy into it, they were practically the same team you saw this year. Last 10 games they let up only 92PPG.Listen to yourself, practically the same team ??? you just said it yourself that they were a better defensive team this year.I dunno my friend, you seemed confuse.
I haven't read most of these replies...I think as a GM, you would have to take Paul Pierce. McGrady is probably the better player, although it's pretty close. When it comes down to it though, McGrady's back problems aren't worth the risk. It's been an issue for how many years now? If two players are similar in skill, you go with the healthier one...
Whoa whoa whoa... I JUST NOW realized that this was about who you would start your franchise with, when all along I was saying that T-Mac was the better player, when healthy. OK that changes things. If I'm going to start a franchise, I take Paul Pierce. He has more playoff experience (Antoine Walker or not, I don't want to hear it), he's way more durable and reliable, and he's much more of a team leader, especially vocally. I'm not taking anything away from Tracy McGrady, but this comes down to health, reliablity, and leadership. In that case, Paul Pierce is your man.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 9 2006, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Pierce was not suspended at all, he was ejected in the 4th quarter.</div>Yes, I know, I worded that wrong. Check post #34 to see that I did know that lol.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>OK, but why did we win that game without Walker? Because PAUL PIERCE stepped up.And I love how you say "but the Celtics won that game, so you can't put much blame on him." OK, if you are going to play that way, then are you saying shouldn't blame Pierce for getting ejected in game 6, just because we won the game? lol see, you just contradicted yourself. It was wrong of Pierce to do that, and it was wrong for Toine to do what he did.</div>Yes, he did step up, and T-Mac has done that moreso than Pierce in his playoff career. Read my post, I said what Pierce did to affect series isn't what bothered me, but moreso the fact that he would take that kind of risk in such a situation. Especially considering he is the leader of that team, it bothers me a lot more than Walker doing that.lakersfoelyfe- They're a better defensive team in PPG, but a lot of that is because they aren't the same run and gun team anymore, thus less scoring oppetunities for other team. They still are not a great defensive team, and the team that played the Rockets in the playoffs was practically the same team that got to the Finals this year. Slightly better defensively, but still no one on the team can guard T-Mac, still not a great defensive team all around that still uses its offensive firepower to knock off teams rather than defense like the Pistons, Grizzlies or San Antonio.
Nitro:They're a better defensive team in PPG, but a lot of that is because they aren't the same run and gun team anymore, thus less scoring oppetunities for other team. They still are not a great defensive team, and the team that played the Rockets in the playoffs was practically the same team that got to the Finals this year. Slightly better defensively, but still no one on the team can guard T-Mac, still not a great defensive team all around that still uses its offensive firepower to knock off teams rather than defense like the Pistons, Grizzlies or San Antonio.At last, yes they are a better defensive team this year...........I agree with you
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, he did step up, and T-Mac has done that moreso than Pierce in his playoff career.</div> Really? Paul Pierce has come through for the Celtics so many times, especially the playoffs, I can't even count. He was the #1 man behind all of those playoff runs in the early 2000's. You have to to be KIDDING me about this statement. Ask any Celtic fan that has seen everything. As a matter of fact, as any Pistons fan, Sixers fan, or Nets fan - how many times has Pierce stepped up in the playoffs against those teams especially, in big situations? PLENTY. The Pacers as well. Also, what makes Pierce's so sweet, is that when he stepped up, the team WON. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Read my post, I said what Pierce did to affect series isn't what bothered me, but moreso the fact that he would take that kind of risk in such a situation. Especially considering he is the leader of that team, it bothers me a lot more than Walker doing that.</div> Right, but you basically excused Walker for getting suspended, JUST because he wasn't the best player on the team. Well that's wrong, bro.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 9 2006, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Really? Paul Pierce has come through for the Celtics so many times, especially the playoffs, I can't even count. He was the #1 man behind all of those playoff runs in the early 2000's. You have to to be KIDDING me about this statement. Ask any Celtic fan that has seen everything. As a matter of fact, as any Pistons fan, Sixers fan, or Nets fan - how many times has Pierce stepped up in the playoffs against those teams especially, in big situations? PLENTY. The Pacers as well.Also, what makes Pierce's so sweet, is that when he stepped up, the team WON.</div>I am a Nets fan, and still remember that 4th quarter comeback in the ECF. But for series he was W-A-Y below average in FG %, and in series' where his team loses his stats are way down. That is a no duh kind of statement, but it shows that when he does step up, or stays at season average, he generally has had the firepower behind him to win the series, where T-Mac has stepped up big in every playoff series he has been in...but still nothing.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Right, but you basically excused Walker for getting suspended, JUST because he wasn't the best player on the team. Well that's wrong, bro.</div>No, I never excused him, if they lost that game, and series still went to 7 games and they ended up losing I'd want his head if I were a Boston fan. But Pierce getting ejected in the 4th quarter of a game where they could have possibly been eliminated really bothers me since he IS the leader, and the leader of the team, fair or not, always gets the most sh*t from losing and doing crap like that. Just look at T-Mac, despite him always stepping up big in playoffs, he still gets an amazing amount of criticism for not getting past 1st round, and SOME of it is deserving, but most of it isn't. That is what you get when you take that responsibility. My whole arguement about each player in playoffs is basically that T-Mac has shown he can carry dirt teams to playoffs, make noise, and truly step up big in the playoffs. Pierce still hasn't shown he can carry a winning team to playoffs (I say winning because in 03-04 his team was well under .500), and in the run to the ECF he was below what he did in season. The one year T-Mac has had firepower behind him, his 3rd option was out for the series, most of the role players didn't show, and they face a team that was on fire and was much better top to bottom.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 9 2006, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, I never excused him, if they lost that game, and series still went to 7 games and they ended up losing I'd want his head if I were a Boston fan.</div> Well looky here! Today is your lucky day: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>But the Celtics won the game without Walker, so you can't put much blame on him.</div> Your quote on Walker for getting suspended. You excused the fact that he did it, just because the Celtics won that game (which, again, was because of PAUL PIERCE). And when you say "if they lost, you would want his head if you were a Boston fan." OK, cool, the Celtics did win, but you still can't give him a free pass for it just because we fortunately did win the game. If you are not going to blame Walker at all, then you shouldn't blame Pierce since we did win that game where he was ejected (lead by Walker lol.. see a pattern? If Pierce screws up Walker bails him out, and visa-versa).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 9 2006, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your quote on Walker for getting suspended. You excused the fact that he did it, just because the Celtics won that game (which, again, was because of PAUL PIERCE). And when you say "if they lost, you would want his head if you were a Boston fan." OK, cool, the Celtics did win, but you still can't give him a free pass for it just because we fortunately did win the game.If you are not going to blame Walker at all, then you shouldn't blame Pierce since we did win that game where he was ejected (lead by Walker lol.. see a pattern? If Pierce screws up Walker bails him out, and visa-versa).</div>Umm, read the post, I said you can't put much blame on him....that doesn't mean he is totally excused. He still was very wrong in doing it, but his actions ultimately didn't hurt them in the series. I expect more from Pierce, the leader of the team, to not be ejected in the 4th quarter of an elimination game. That is immature by both of them, but I expect a lot more from Pierce.T-Mac has never been bailed out by Yao in playoffs, and was never bailed out in Orlando. When Pierce didn't have that person to bail him out he was swept in playoffs and didn't make playoffs the other year.
