<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 9 2006, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My whole arguement about each player in playoffs is basically that T-Mac has shown he can carry dirt teams to playoffs, make noise, and truly step up big in the playoffs. Pierce still hasn't shown he can carry a winning team to playoffs (I say winning because in 03-04 his team was well under .500), and in the run to the ECF he was below what he did in season. The one year T-Mac has had firepower behind him, his 3rd option was out for the series, most of the role players didn't show, and they face a team that was on fire and was much better top to bottom.</div>Geez, besides Walker Pierce ha dcrap for teammates. He, with Walker, carried that team offensively in all those playoff runs. Pierce has always been clutch and ready to play in the playoffs. and as for bashing pierce for the ejection incident, that was blown way out of proportion. Tinsley sold it big time, Pierce was simply trying to brush him off. and it's BS that you are giving walker a free pass and not giving pierce one. walker also missed part of the fourth quarter in another game due to ejection. that was the game before his suspension, in which we lost.and to say that we weren't headed for the playoffs without toine a few years back is complete bullsh**. We were a few games over .500 when that trade was made, well on our way to the post season.and oh yeah, If TMac could really dominate a game like you say he can, he wouldn't have let his team lose by 40 in a game 7. You can't deny that TMac is nowhere near the leader pierce is. All he really is to me is a glorified athletic scorer. and there is no denying that TMac's Rockets squad was just as good, if not better than Pierce's old playoff squads.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ Oct 9 2006, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Geez, besides Walker Pierce ha dcrap for teammates. He, with Walker, carried that team offensively in all those playoff runs. Pierce has always been clutch and ready to play in the playoffs. and as for bashing pierce for the ejection incident, that was blown way out of proportion. Tinsley sold it big time, Pierce was simply trying to brush him off. and it's BS that you are giving walker a free pass and not giving pierce one. walker also missed part of the fourth quarter in another game due to ejection. that was the game before his suspension, in which we lost.</div>All those playoff runs? He's been out of the first round twice. He is a clutch player, but in playoffs doesn't increase his play like T-Mac does. Pierce had Walker, a 22PPG scorer in the years they got out of first round, and solid role players. In a weak East, that was more than enough to get to ECF. T-Mac never got past 1st round in orlando because hd didn't have a reliable 2nd option that could get 15PPG+ a night.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>and to say that we weren't headed for the playoffs without toine a few years back is complete bullsh**. We were a few games over .500 when that trade was made, well on our way to the post season.</div>You guys were exactly at .500 the day Toine was traded to Boston, and ended up 8 games over .500 by end of season. If you guys stayed .500 you would have not made the playoffs.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>and oh yeah, If TMac could really dominate a game like you say he can, he wouldn't have let his team lose by 40 in a game 7. You can't deny that TMac is nowhere near the leader pierce is. All he really is to me is a glorified athletic scorer. and there is no denying that TMac's Rockets squad was just as good, if not better than Pierce's old playoff squads.</div>Outside of Yao and Mac his teammates scored 16 points.I think T-Mac is a BETTER leader than Pierce. Every playoff series he has been in he has come up HUGE, and in season is a better player than Pierce. Outside of last season and 03-04 (where he sat out of last few games despite not being injured enough to stay off court), he has always been a 75-80 game guy, he is every bit the vocal leader Pierce is, and he showed with crappier teams than Pierce had to play with this season and in 03-04 that he can single handedly carry them to playoffs with some of the best stats in league. He hits just as many GW's as Pierce, and carries them to victory just as much.PS- the Mavs were a better team than either of the Nets teams that beat the Celtics.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='173999' date='Oct 10 2006, 12:02 AM'] I think T-Mac is a BETTER leader than Pierce. Every playoff series he has been in he has come up HUGE, and in season is a better player than Pierce. Outside of last season and 03-04 (where he sat out of last few games despite not being injured enough to stay off court), he has always been a 75-80 game guy, he is every bit the vocal leader Pierce is, and he showed with crappier teams than Pierce had to play with this season and in 03-04 that he can single handedly carry them to playoffs with some of the best stats in league. He hits just as many GW's as Pierce, and carries them to victory just as much. [/quote] Just because T-Mac is a clutch player, doesn't make him a better leader. Hell, Eric Snow is a better leader than T-Mac. Play on the court has nothing to do with being a leader. It's a quality that you really can't teach. Tracy McGrady is not a vocal leader, Paul Pierce is. Again, not in the playoffs. Pierce does. Act like T-Mac has never flipped out? I remember when he was in Orlando and he booted a basketball into the stands... twice in the same 30 second span. Plus, it's not like Pierce is known for doing that. The game vs. Indiana was very chirpy and Pierce felt Tinsley hit him, so he gave him a nudge off. And for the record, Tinsley DID flop to make it look like Pierce pushed him harder. I really don't think that Earl Boykins would have fallen from that push. Again, Pierce doesn't have a history of doing this, so it's not like this closes out his personality as a bad example. It was ONE incodent, we all make mistakes. Yeah, I know, Pierce didn't lead this team to the playoffs this year. But note that it was a rebuilding team with a whole new roster, mixed with excessive youth, and big injuries (Wally, Perk, Big Al). T-Mac, healthy, wouldn't have done anything with last year's Celtics team either. Plus, like I said before, Paul Pierce is a true leader - Tracy McGrady is NOT. EDIT: And for the record - Tracy McGrady has missed a total of 94 games in his career. Paul Pierce has missed 19.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 10 2006, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just because T-Mac is a clutch player, doesn't make him a better leader. Hell, Eric Snow is a better leader than T-Mac. Play on the court has nothing to do with being a leader. It's a quality that you really can't teach. Tracy McGrady is not a vocal leader, Paul Pierce is.</div>Oh I beg to differ. Who are you gonna look up to more, an arguable top 5 player in the league who can carry your team to victory, or a veteran who can only give tips and pointers? And T-Mac is most certainly a vocal leader, especially since arriving in Houston. He is always coaching players on court, saying positive things about everyone to the media, helping bringing players like Bonze Wells into Houston, etc... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Again, not in the playoffs. Pierce does.</div>Oh, like the time he was swept when he didn't have the 2nd option that T-Mac never had in Orlando? Or how about when he didn't make playoffs without that 2nd option? He has a few individual good games, but T-Mac has had a crapload of them too. Houston would have lost 4-0 to Mavs without Mac's amazing performances in Game 1 and 2, and GW in game 2. Orlando wouldn't have nearly beaten Pistons without his 32PPG, and the other 2 past seasons they wouldn't have won games without his 34PPG and 28PPG. T-Mac has shown, playoffs and regular season, he can single handedly carry a team without any reliable 2nd option. You keep bragging about Pierce winnign that game without Walker, well that is the position T-Mac was in in every playoff game in orlando, and he averaged better stats than Pierce's one good game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Oh I beg to differ. Who are you gonna look up to more, an arguable top 5 player in the league who can carry your team to victory, or a veteran who can only give tips and pointers? And T-Mac is most certainly a vocal leader, especially since arriving in Houston. He is always coaching players on court, saying positive things about everyone to the media, helping bringing players like Bonze Wells into Houston, etc...</div> Pierce is more of a leader, can also carry his team to victory, a top 12 player in the league, and he's more reliable. And T-Mac says all the right things, yeah, but Paul Pierce has expressed much more leadership qualities throughout his entire career. Paul Pierce is much more of a leader than McGrady, and he's much more reliable. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Oh, like the time he was swept when he didn't have the 2nd option that T-Mac never had in Orlando? Or how about when he didn't make playoffs without that 2nd option? He has a few individual good games, but T-Mac has had a crapload of them too. Houston would have lost 4-0 to Mavs without Mac's amazing performances in Game 1 and 2, and GW in game 1. Orlando wouldn't have nearly beaten Pistons without his 32PPG, and the other 2 past seasons they wouldn't have won games without his 34PPG and 28PPG. T-Mac has shown, playoffs and regular season, he can single handedly carry a team without any reliable 2nd option. You keep bragging about Pierce winnign that game without Walker, well that is the position T-Mac was in in every playoff game in orlando, and he averaged better stats than Pierce's one good game.</div> If T-Mac is so great at carrying teams to victories singlehandedly, why has he never done it in the playoffs? And all those stats mean nothing without the wins. Paul Pierce has always put up godly stats as well, but he has a much better winning history than T-Mac.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 10 2006, 12:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Pierce is more of a leader, can also carry his team to victory, a top 12 player in the league, and he's more reliable.And T-Mac says all the right things, yeah, but Paul Pierce has expressed much more leadership qualities throughout his entire career. Paul Pierce is much more of a leader than McGrady, and he's much more reliable.</div>He's more reliable, but considering T-Mac, 4 of his last 6 seasons has played over 75 games, that isn't a big deal. T-Mac is arguable top 5, bigg difference there. T-Mac carried his team to victory in Olrando, specifically in 02-03, just like Kobe did this year....with absolutely amazing stats on a very bad team. Pierce is not on a good team right now, but his stats still pale in comparsison to T-Mac's when he wa son those bad teams that he actually rbough to playoffs and made noise.Watch a Rockets game, specifically in the playoffs vs the Mavs, to see just how much of a leader T-Mac really is. He is not the sleepy eyed, seemingly non-caring player he appeared to be in Orlando.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If T-Mac is so great at carrying teams to victories singlehandedly, why has he never done it in the playoffs? And all those stats mean nothing without the wins. Paul Pierce has always put up godly stats as well, but he has a much better winning history than T-Mac.</div>He HAS done it in the playoffs, but you can't win a series without other players showing up. He won those first 2 games vs the Mavs, he won games vs Pistons, he won games vs Charolette and Milwaukee, etc... He has had his amazing performances, performances surpassing Pierce's best playoff games, wasted because teammates didn't show. When you score 46pts in a playoff game, and rest of team combines for 31pts....you just can't hold T-Mac accountable in that kind of situation (mind you, if those teammates were up to par with T-Mac in that game, scoring 46pts, they would have won that game, and theoretically, the series vs the Pistons).Pierce hasn't always put up godly stats in playoffs. In 01-02 his stats dropped considerably, especially FG %. In 02-03, he was averaging good PPG numbers but was below 40% in FG %. In 03-04, despite not having a reliable 2nd option to lean on, which means that his stats should go up, his stats ended going down to 21PPG on 34% shooting, and less than 3APG. In 04-05 he played well, but his team lost and his stats were FAR from godly.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Pierce is not on a good team right now, but his stats still pale in comparsison to T-Mac's when he wa son those bad teams that he actually rbough to playoffs and made noise.</div> Why must you bring up individual stats on every post? It means nothing without the wins. Plus, you have to take into account that Pierce and T-Mac are different players. T-Mac dominates the ball way more than Pierce, especially back in his days with Orlando. If Paul Pierce really wanted to be like that, he could easily score 30+ ppg. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Watch a Rockets game, specifically in the playoffs vs the Mavs, to see just how much of a leader T-Mac really is. He is not the sleepy eyed, seemingly non-caring player he appeared to be in Orlando.</div> I am never one to knock on T-Mac for that in Orlando. He does have love and passion for the game, no matter what anyone says. And I am not saying that Tracy is the worst leader on the planet, but Paul Pierce is a much better one. Tracy hasn't really expressed any oz. of true leadership until his first year in Houston. And even then, in terms of leadership, he's not on Paul Pierce's level, I'm sorry. He is, and always will be sleepy eyed however . That's just him, he can't change that, and that means nothing. Once he steps on the court, it's all business. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Pierce hasn't always put up godly stats in playoffs. In 01-02 his stats dropped considerably, especially FG %. In 02-03, he was averaging good PPG numbers but was below 40% in FG %. In 03-04, despite not having a reliable 2nd option to lean on, which means that his stats should go up, his stats ended going down to 21PPG on 34% shooting, and less than 3APG. In 04-05 he played well, but his team lost and his stats were FAR from godly.</div> For the first time, I am actually double-checking on stats during a debate. In 01-02 his numbers did not drop considerably. In the regular season he put up 26/7/3 on 44% shooting. In the playoffs he put up 25/9/4 on 40% shooting, with better averages in the blocks department. His numbers did not drop AT ALL except for 4% less from the feild... oh and 1 ppg. Give me a break. And in 02-03, the whole team fell apart in the playoffs, Antoine Walker included. I remember the only players in that years' playoffs that played well for us was Tony Delk and Walter McCarty (now take THAT for what it's worth - Delk and McCarty).
[quote name='CelticBalla32' post='174043' date='Oct 10 2006, 01:21 AM']Why must you bring up individual stats on every post? It means nothing without the wins. Plus, you have to take into account that Pierce and T-Mac are different players. T-Mac dominates the ball way more than Pierce, especially back in his days with Orlando. If Paul Pierce really wanted to be like that, he could easily score 30+ ppg.[/quote]Then why doesn't he do that now with a very young team? He is not the scorer or playmaker T-Mac is, that's why. If he was the ballhandler and playmaker T-Mac is, he would have ball as much as Bron and Mac have it. In Orlando he was leader by example, he didn't need to be a big vocal leader considering his team was full of veterans. He led by example, arguably the best swingman in league during his stay in Orlando. He totally carried those teams, into playoffs and did his best to carry them to wins in playoffs with amazing stats....teammates didn't show. Least we forget he dropped in SPG, 10% drop in 3p%, 5% decrease in FT%, and 4 TO's per game? The big thing to me was the scoring, especially in ECF where he dropped to 24PPG on 34% shooting, 21% from 3 and 68% from FT line. In first round, when Pierce was drop in PPG and big drop in FG %, Walker was at 20PPG on 46% shooting. Delk had 15PPG and McCarty 12PPG....I don't care if they are not great players, they showed up. In semi's Walker was manhandled by Kenyon, and Pierce played very well. But again, pierce got help with Delk who played extremely well, and Walker still go 15PPG....more help than T-Mac ever got in orlando, and they still got swept.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Then why doesn't he do that now with a very young team? He is not the scorer or playmaker T-Mac is, that's why. If he was the ballhandler and playmaker T-Mac is, he would have ball as much as Bron and Mac have it.</div> Are you suggesting that Paul Pierce doesn't have as many oppertunities as T-Mac, LeBron, etc? Like I said, if Pierce wanted to he could put up 30+ a night, but he likes having a flowing offense. He isn't a "ball stopper" like T-Mac, Kobe, LeBron, etc. He doesn't just take the ball and call for clearouts (I have he obviously does sometimes, but not much). He works off the ball as well. And maybe you didn't remember Paul Pierce's stretch this year where he DID put up 30+ like 13 out of 17 games or something crazy like that. And for the record, he did average 27 ppg. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>In Orlando he was leader by example, he didn't need to be a big vocal leader considering his team was full of veterans. He led by example, arguably the best swingman in league during his stay in Orlando. He totally carried those teams, into playoffs and did his best to carry them to wins in playoffs with amazing stats....teammates didn't show.</div> See, that's the thing. Paul Pierce leads vocally and through actions, AS WELL as leading by example. That's what separates them so much leadership wise. And Pierce carried the Celtics as well. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>In semi's Walker was manhandled by Kenyon, and Pierce played very well. But again, pierce got help with Delk who played extremely well, and Walker still go 15PPG....more help than T-Mac ever got in orlando, and they still got swept.</div> You want to talk stats here? OK. You say this is more help than T-Mac ever had in Orlando. OK, well, when Pierce's 2nd option (Walker) scores 14 ppg on 34% shooting - is that much help either? No. Delk played well, I can't argue that one. But then he had Eric Williams, Tony Battie, Walter McCarty, and JR Bremer ALL COMBINING for under 28 ppg. Add that with Walker's 14, you get a total of about 42 PPG from 5 players combined, one of which being an All-Star who didn't show up. So, outside of Delk, Pierce had NOTHING in the semi's. And to boot, Pierce fought like a dog that series and put up 29/9/8 with 2.5 steals and a block. What more could HE do? That series was all on the supporting cast.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Oct 10 2006, 01:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Are you suggesting that Paul Pierce doesn't have as many oppertunities as T-Mac, LeBron, etc? Like I said, if Pierce wanted to he could put up 30+ a night, but he likes having a flowing offense. He isn't a "ball stopper" like T-Mac, Kobe, LeBron, etc. He doesn't just take the ball and call for clearouts (I have he obviously does sometimes, but not much). He works off the ball as well.And maybe you didn't remember Paul Pierce's stretch this year where he DID put up 30+ like 13 out of 17 games or something crazy like that. And for the record, he did average 27 ppg.</div>If he was the ballhandler, playmaker and scorer that T-Mac or Bron are, then he'd have the ball in his hands more, especially on this young team. T-Mac put up 32PPG through 75 games, your point? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>See, that's the thing. Paul Pierce leads vocally and through actions, AS WELL as leading by example. That's what separates them so much leadership wise. And Pierce carried the Celtics as well.</div>T-Mac leads vocally and through actions too. He is NOT as quiet as he was in Orlando, he is M-U-C-H more vocal since arriving in Houston. Watch a few Rockets games, and take a look at him on the court. Ontop of leadership by example, he directs people, he pumps team up, he gets emotional....he is a leader!Pierce has never carried team like T-Mac did in Orlando, and for every great series he has had in playoffs T-Mac has had a better series. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You want to talk stats here? OK. You say this is more help than T-Mac ever had in Orlando. OK, well, when Pierce's 2nd option (Walker) scores 14 ppg on 34% shooting - is that much help either? No. Delk played well, I can't argue that one. But then he had Eric Williams, Tony Battie, Walter McCarty, and JR Bremer ALL COMBINING for under 28 ppg. Add that with Walker's 14, you get a total of about 42 PPG from 5 players combined, one of which being an All-Star who didn't show up. So, outside of Delk, Pierce had NOTHING in the semi's. And to boot, Pierce fought like a dog that series and put up 29/9/8 with 2.5 steals and a block. What more could HE do? That series was all on the supporting cast.</div>Want stats?-00-01, T-Mac averages 34/8/7/2/1....no one else on team scores more than 13PPG.-01-02, T-Mac averages 31/6/6/2 on 46% shooting....everyone else outside of Troy Hudson is lower than season stats.-02-03, T-Mac averages 32/7/5/2 on 45% shooting...Gooden is only other player to average more than 10PPG. In game that could have won them the series, T-Mac scores 46pts, rest of team scores 31pts...they lose by 12.-04-05, T-Mac averages 31/7/7/2/1 on 46% shooting....outside of Yao (who despite fairly good numbers did NOT have a good series)rest of team is below averages, and Juwan Howard, 3rd option, is out.Pierce had a great series, and I do not take anything away from him in that series. But look at T-Mac, ine very playoff series he has been in he's been absolutely incredible, while Pierce has had some very below-par series'.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 9 2006, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He never demanded a trade, he wanted to stay in Orlando.T-Mac takes around 150 more 3PA's per season, and shoots it 2% worse than Pierce for career. You can say Pierce is a better 3p shooter, but the margin is very thin. Better rebounder? He averages .1RPG more than T-Mac for career, and past few seasons about .2-.3 more, so again, very minimal. Defender? I'll give ya that. Clutch? http://www.82games.com/random12.htm Again, I'll give ya it, but it's a small margin, and T-Mac has GW's under his belt from playoffs and his stats always go up big in playoffs, while Pierce's either stay around the same or go down.Pierce, statistically, went downhill for 3 years in a row in PPG, all the way down to 22PPG. His FG % those 2 seasons were also much lower than his usual standards.But the difference in their defense wasn't very big at all. When Avery took over they let up around 96PPG to the 93PPG they let up this season. By the time they had 20-30 games to buy into it, they were practically the same team you saw this year. Last 10 games they let up only 92PPG.</div>02-03 Pierce had Walker..I think you think he didn't. The next year, he had an off shooting year and put up 23/7/5. The following year, he shot a very good FG% and 3P%, put up 22/7/4, and led his team to the playoffs. He took only fifteen shots/game.So basically you admit Pierce is a better 3P shooter, better rebounder, defender, clutchness..to me, that sounds like he's a better player.Not to mention he's a better leader and tougher.And actually, McGrady did ask for a trade in Orlando. He didn't want them to select Howard.
You can't be clutch and disappear for 3 straight games while your team disappears. You can't be clutch and disappear in 4th quarters when your team needs you. You can't be clutch when miss a criticial freethrow, intentionally misses the 2nd and them misses the shor for the tie. You can't be clutch and have critical turnovers in the last 30 seconds. You can't be clutch and have 1-5 4th quarters. You can't be clutch and not make it out of the first round.He isn't even semi-clutch.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bostonfan23 @ Oct 10 2006, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>02-03 Pierce had Walker..I think you think he didn't. The next year, he had an off shooting year and put up 23/7/5. The following year, he shot a very good FG% and 3P%, put up 22/7/4, and led his team to the playoffs. He took only fifteen shots/game.So basically you admit Pierce is a better 3P shooter, better rebounder, defender, clutchness..to me, that sounds like he's a better player.Not to mention he's a better leader and tougher.And actually, McGrady did ask for a trade in Orlando. He didn't want them to select Howard.</div>I know he had Pierce, me and CelticBalla just debated about those playoffs. None of those seasons did he top T-Mac's best seasons in orlando or T-Mac's first season in Houston.I said I'd give you rebounder and all of that, but IMO T-Mac is every bit the rebounder, 3pt shooter and clutch player that Pierce is. The only category I feel Pierce is a clear cut winner in is defense. But T-Mac is better, and much more dangerous scorer, much better playmaker and ballhandler, and everything from there is debatable.He's tougher, but I feel T-Mac is better leader. I want to see Pierce carry a poor team to playoffs a few times, and do it with the stats T-Mac did, and raise his stats in playoffs big time before I give him a clearcut leader or clutch player advantage.Melo-It works both ways, buddy. You can't be clutch and shoot 34% in ECF. You can't be clutch and expect to beat a team without your 2nd option and only averaged 20PPG on well under 40% shooting. List goes on and on. T-Mac always raises stats in playoffs, and in game 1 vs Mavs, with Mavs creeping closer he scores 8pts between the 4:00 mark and 2:00 mark of 4th quarter to seal win.In game 2 scores 15pts in final quarter, including GW without taking a timeout to create a play to get him open. Again, Pierce has a good game, coming up big like that, but so does T-Mac. Pierce has games where he plays pitifully (2-11...yeesh), and so does Mac. But for series and playoffs, Mac's stats go way up, way moreso than Pierce's, and there are tons of games he plays where his teammates don't show up, despite huge performances by him (that 46pts by mac and 31 by everyone else still surprises me). I mean jeeze, when your stats go way up like his do in playoffs, averaging no less than 31/7/5 in a playoff series in his career, you have to put a ton of blame on teammates and the fact that in orlando he always had to play one of the top seeds, and with Rockets ran into the hottest team in the league and didn't have his 3rd option.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 10 2006, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I know he had Pierce, me and CelticBalla just debated about those playoffs. None of those seasons did he top T-Mac's best seasons in orlando or T-Mac's first season in Houston.I said I'd give you rebounder and all of that, but IMO T-Mac is every bit the rebounder, 3pt shooter and clutch player that Pierce is. The only category I feel Pierce is a clear cut winner in is defense. But T-Mac is better, and much more dangerous scorer, much better playmaker and ballhandler, and everything from there is debatable.He's tougher, but I feel T-Mac is better leader. I want to see Pierce carry a poor team to playoffs a few times, and do it with the stats T-Mac did, and raise his stats in playoffs big time before I give him a clearcut leader or clutch player advantage.</div>Paul has been farther in the playoffs. He's tougher. He's a better leader. How is McGrady? "Okay young guys, if you aren't winning, ask out like me!"Pierce wipes the floor with TMac.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bostonfan23 @ Oct 10 2006, 03:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Pierce wipes the floor with TMac.</div>That is the most ridiculous thing anyone has said in this whole thread. T-Mac is a better scorer, better playmaker, and better ballhandler than Pierce. Both are equal rebounders, T-Mac has had just as many GW's in past few seasons and his playoffs stats are far better than Pierce's, and he has shown he can, at the very least, get to playoffs with crummy teams and much improve his stats in that time. Pierce has not proven that thus far. He had VERY solid role players and a great 2nd option in Walker, who played better in playoffs, to get past 1st round twice (despite Pierce's numbers dropping for most part). T-Mac had that luxory ONCE....in Houston....and in that series he played amazingly well, but his 3rd option was hurt, no one outside of Yao showed up, and they faced a team that was much better than the team Pierce lost to in 01-02/02-03. Not to mention they were on a 16-2 run heading into playoffs.T-Mac's numbers have always gone way up in playoffs, and teammates stats have gone down...in other words, while I do put a lot of blame on T-Mac for the Pistons series (which could have been won if his teammates scored as many as T-Mac's 46), for the most part he has done everything possible to win in playoffs. For every good series Pierce has had in playoffs, T-Mac has one up'd that performance.
you keep on saying that TMac is the much better playmaker, but he's really not. Pierce is just as good a passer as TMac is. You're putting TMac on a different level when he's not. I'd give McGrady the edge in scoring, but Paul is a better defender, rebounder, leader, and they are about even in passing.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 10 2006, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That is the most ridiculous thing anyone has said in this whole thread. T-Mac is a better scorer, better playmaker, and better ballhandler than Pierce. Both are equal rebounders, T-Mac has had just as many GW's in past few seasons and his playoffs stats are far better than Pierce's, and he has shown he can, at the very least, get to playoffs with crummy teams and much improve his stats in that time. Pierce has not proven that thus far. He had VERY solid role players and a great 2nd option in Walker, who played better in playoffs, to get past 1st round twice (despite Pierce's numbers dropping for most part). T-Mac had that luxory ONCE....in Houston....and in that series he played amazingly well, but his 3rd option was hurt, no one outside of Yao showed up, and they faced a team that was much better than the team Pierce lost to in 01-02/02-03. Not to mention they were on a 16-2 run heading into playoffs.T-Mac's numbers have always gone way up in playoffs, and teammates stats have gone down...in other words, while I do put a lot of blame on T-Mac for the Pistons series (which could have been won if his teammates scored as many as T-Mac's 46), for the most part he has done everything possible to win in playoffs. For every good series Pierce has had in playoffs, T-Mac has one up'd that performance.</div>Okay, I was exagerrating (sp) with the "wipes the floor" comment, I apoligize.With that said, there is no doubt in my mind I would rather start a franchise with Paul Pierce, a guy who is tough, has shown more loyalty, is a better leader, better rebounder, better defender, and just a great all around player over McGrady.Poor Tracy McGrady..he can never get out of the first round of the playoffs, but he's so good! He must be cursed. It can't be his fault in any way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ Oct 10 2006, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>you keep on saying that TMac is the much better playmaker, but he's really not. Pierce is just as good a passer as TMac is. You're putting TMac on a different level when he's not. I'd give McGrady the edge in scoring, but Paul is a better defender, rebounder, leader, and they are about even in passing.</div>In past 5 seasons, Pierce has averaged 4.3APG with 3.3 TO's per game. In past 5 seasons, T-Mac has averaged 5.4APG, never going over the 2.7 TO mark in a season. Those stats show he is better playmaker, and considerably more efficient. And again, watch a few games from each, pay attention to how each orchestrates the offense and such....T-Mac is easily better playmaker and ballhandler.And again, Pierce averaged 6.8RPG in past 5 seasons to T-Mac's 6.6. For career they are only .1RPG apart....in other words, rebounding is a wash, and a stat far less important than APG/TO's and PPG, which is what they are ultimately expected to do. Pierce is better defender, but T-Mac is a good defender and has shown it in past 2 seasons with Rockets (especially against Dirk in playoffs, he did a number on him). Leader, again, this can be argued. Pierce has been past first round, but T-Mac is widely regarded as a top 5 player when healthy whereas Pierce is rarely even considered top 10. T-Mac has shown he can carry crummy teams to playoffs with winning records and make noise where Pierce hasn't. Pierce is a bit more vocal, but again, T-Mac has been a LOT more vocal since arriving in Houston. You can say Pierce is a better leader, but *PERSONALLY*, if I was a role player, I'd look up to the better player who has shown he can get to playoffs with crummy teams and whose stats go up quite a bit when playoffs come. bostonfan- Thank god you acknowledged that you were exagerating. I respect your opinion, and what I just posted above is basically my rebuttle.
Nitro, you said yourself that this is one of those debates where you really have to watch them and really know what you are talking about to make a decision. I'm not saying you don't know what you are talking about, but PLEASE stop going and pulling out every little per game stat you can find on their playerfiles. Pierce's turnovers - 0.6 more than T-Mac - oooooooohhhhh. You sound like my friend, who declared Melo had a better rookie year than LeBron because of 0.1 ppg difference. Also note the team he's been on with an endless amount of players who are under age 23 and cause a lot of those turnovers. But please, I hate reading a post that says something like: "So and so got 0.6 steals, 54% shooting. 24.5 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 4.3 apg and a great assist to turnover ratio" etc. Stop with that crap.
nitro, if you're talking about ppg, you were the onde saying how Pierce always had a 20 ppg scorer by his side, don't you think that would take away from his touches? that could be a reason for a lower ppg than McGrady's. And a higher turnover rating could've easily been due to learning a new offense (in which he did not agree witht eh coach on) and more posessions in the game. The Celtics are a fastbreak team for the most part, whereas the Rockets play at a grudgingly slow pace.
