One thing about AV's system

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dumpstralmannow

dumpstralmannow

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You have to be smart to play in it. Especially on defense. Del Zotto was awful last night. It's not because he doesn't have talent. He's stupid. That's OK provided you play a system where you can be dumb and still be really good. This system you can't be dumb. I'm totally on board with moving him after watching his game last night. He's just too stupid to play this system. McDonagh is really smart which is why he is thriving in this system. So is Zucc which is why his deficiency's no longer are glaring. Hagelin is smart and he seems to be thriving in this system now.
 
MDZ is stupid, I agree there...LOL. You can see it on the ice with a few plays a game.
 
Yeah, he's just dumb. That can be corrected with the right system and supporting cast. There are tons of good players in the NHL that were dumb. Kovalev was an unbelievable moron. Lucic is practically special ed.
 
They need to keep him on his correct side. Enough with playing 5 defensemen and having his playing the off side.

Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Tapatalk
 
It's true dump. Tortorella's collapsing style often covered up for bonehead defensive plays because the forwards were in much deeper. When a dman made a dumb play with the puck, forwards were there for support. The D also wasn't asked to join the rush too much, so they were rarely out of position. The obvious drawback though was that there was absolutely no transition game once we got the puck. Our forwards were deep in our own zone and by the time we gained possession the opposing team had plenty of time to get back. Hence the mind-numbing dump and chase we saw so often.

It's pretty clear AV wants to play an up-tempo transition game, with the forwards looking primarily to break out. The obvious drawback with that is that if a dman makes a mistake with the puck or joins the rush when he shouldnt, he doesnt have the level of support and cover he had under Torts. Pros and cons to both systems but you're right, AV's system requires a much higher hockey IQ and depends on the defenseman being responsible.
 
Agree with both you guys. The funny thing is, that was Tort's system before he got here. He tried it that 1st year but constant odd man rushes against changed it. I thought the last year his dman had grown enough to play that system and was disappointed they didn't. Apparently, Torts knew what he had.
 
If DZ was a good smart player I don't think we would harp so much on what side he plays. He doesn't fit with AV. That seems to be clear. It is why AV isn't a fan, and why Sather is trying to move him. Doesn't mean he is useless or terrible, just means he is not a great fit here, and would be better served being on a different team.

Is what it is.
 
Reguarding both systems, as a fan, have to admit that AV's is the better brand of hockey to watch. Even though they still arent scoring enough goals, the players are moving more without the puck, they move the puck and are getting more opportunities to score. Much better than Tort's block 50 shots, and dump and chase approach.

Now having said that, I'd like to think if Tort's felt he had the players that suited a much more up-temp style, he would have played that way.
 
jamsim67 said:
Reguarding both systems, as a fan, have to admit that AV's is the better brand of hockey to watch. Even though they still arent scoring enough goals, the players are moving more without the puck, they move the puck and are getting more opportunities to score. Much better than Tort's block 50 shots, and dump and chase approach.

Now having said that, I'd like to think if Tort's felt he had the players that suited a much more up-temp style, he would have played that way.
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Disagree jam, we had a pretty skilled roster last year and one of the reasons Torts is gone is that he made zero adjustments to his system to accommodate scorers like Nash and Gaborik and we now know Zuccarello, who was absolutely wasted in the Torts system. Yeah Gaborik had been here before but he also had guys like Prust, Feds, Dubinsky, Anisimov, etc. who could do the dirty work for him. All those guys were gone yet Torts wouldnt budge in his ways. Thats why Sather made the Gaborik trade and got guys like Brassard and Dorsett, to make the team more suitable to Torts' style. It's also one of the reasons Torts lost the room.
 
theProdigy223 said:
Disagree jam, we had a pretty skilled roster last year and one of the reasons Torts is gone is that he made zero adjustments to his system to accommodate scorers like Nash and Gaborik and we now know Zuccarello, who was absolutely wasted in the Torts system. Yeah Gaborik had been here before but he also had guys like Prust, Feds, Dubinsky, Anisimov, etc. who could do the dirty work for him. All those guys were gone yet Torts wouldnt budge in his ways. Thats why Sather made the Gaborik trade and got guys like Brassard and Dorsett, to make the team more suitable to Torts' style. It's also one of the reasons Torts lost the room.
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Agreed. Torts had his chance to change his style to fit his roster and couldnt do it. Let's judge AV with the same lens we judged Torts: Let's let him have players that fit his system and see if they win. Sather gave Torts that benefit. AV deserves the same.
 
Agree dis and Prod. We can truly judge AV next season IMO, after the summer miny re-make we will do after this season.

And I think in some ways that will happen dump, we will make a deal, but let's hope Sather won't make a less than optimal deal just to make a deal, and I don't think he will given his track record wth trades. Usually he doesn't make a trade unless he feels like we get the best no doubt. That is good and bad in some ways, but that's Sather's usual MO.
 
Disturbed said:
Agreed. Torts had his chance to change his style to fit his roster and couldnt do it. Let's judge AV with the same lens we judged Torts: Let's let him have players that fit his system and see if they win. Sather gave Torts that benefit. AV deserves the same.
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Agree with you Prod. I think a big mistake was making Gabby play the left side. He said he was uncomfortable and didn't want to play it. Nash said he had no problem with either side. Both probably would have done better plus, like you say, he made no adjustments for the improved offensive talent.
 
Nash is much better on the right side when he drives the net and doesn't play with fear. I like our 4th line but let's be realistic. Lindberg to me is going to center the 4th line next year. He's great on faceoffs also and has offensive upside. Liked Dorsett from day one and still do. That means Moore won't be here. If I was Sather, and he insists on keeping Boyle, I'd tell Boyle, here is your deal. 4 y, 8 million. Take it or we are trading you. That's a lot for a 4th line guy but Boyle is a really good PK guy and plays well in the playoffs. Plus, he wouldn't be hard to move at any time.
 
theProdigy223 said:
Disagree jam, we had a pretty skilled roster last year and one of the reasons Torts is gone is that he made zero adjustments to his system to accommodate scorers like Nash and Gaborik and we now know Zuccarello, who was absolutely wasted in the Torts system. Yeah Gaborik had been here before but he also had guys like Prust, Feds, Dubinsky, Anisimov, etc. who could do the dirty work for him. All those guys were gone yet Torts wouldnt budge in his ways. Thats why Sather made the Gaborik trade and got guys like Brassard and Dorsett, to make the team more suitable to Torts' style. It's also one of the reasons Torts lost the room.
Click to expand...

So all of a sudden the Rangers had a skilled roster last season? Not from where I sat. They had one real goal scorer, a few guys who could put the puck in the net from time to time, and the rest of the lineup was full of grinders. I'm not backing Tort's, because I do feel it was time for him to go, but saying he had a skilled roster is a stretch. I stand by what I said earlier, I'd like to think that if Tort's felt (the key word being felt) he had the players suited to a much more up-tempo style, he would have played that way. He didn't think he could, so he rarely played that way. With the players he had he was much more comfortable having them try to block 50 shots a game, dump and chase, scoring the first goal and then trying to hang on as they backed in and depended on Hank to come up Huge. As a fan, I think AV's system has been much better to watch. As for goals scored, both systems have been frustrating.

And just how many of you felt Zuc was wasted in Tort's system, and how many felt he was purely a waste in any system?
 
With all due respect dump, I think you are flippin crazy if you want to give Boyle a 4 year deal...:). No way man. I am not even sure I would go 2 years let alone 4. Surprised to see you write that.
 
I would trade him as I've always said. However, this organization seems to love him. Also, a 4 year deal at 2 million is good trade strategy. If they move him next year at the deadline, it's viewed as a 3 year deal at 6 million which is something teams like. A guy who is good on the PK, on draws, in the playoffs for a 2 million cap hit and who they can control. Teams will never have a problem trading for a good role player with a 3 year, 2 million a year deal. It's that simple.
 
We agree trading him at the DL this season is the way to go. We agree to disagree that we should give him a 4 year deal. I would even think long and hard about a 2 year deal, but that would be my max for 2 mill per tops. Even then I don't love it. Time to move on from Boyle IMO.
 
chuckd3534 said:
With all due respect dump, I think you are flippin crazy if you want to give Boyle a 4 year deal...:). No way man. I am not even sure I would go 2 years let alone 4. Surprised to see you write that.
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I wouldn't re-sign that turd for any amount of time..
 
jamsim67 said:
So all of a sudden the Rangers had a skilled roster last season? Not from where I sat. They had one real goal scorer, a few guys who could put the puck in the net from time to time, and the rest of the lineup was full of grinders. I'm not backing Tort's, because I do feel it was time for him to go, but saying he had a skilled roster is a stretch. I stand by what I said earlier, I'd like to think that if Tort's felt (the key word being felt) he had the players suited to a much more up-tempo style, he would have played that way. He didn't think he could, so he rarely played that way. With the players he had he was much more comfortable having them try to block 50 shots a game, dump and chase, scoring the first goal and then trying to hang on as they backed in and depended on Hank to come up Huge. As a fan, I think AV's system has been much better to watch. As for goals scored, both systems have been frustrating.



And just how many of you felt Zuc was wasted in Tort's system, and how many felt he was purely a waste in any system?
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Not that they had a skilled roster, but they had 2 real goal scorers. Problem was Torts always had a yearly pinada, and that year it was Gabby. Really screwed him over. Agree totally with the rest. As far as Zuc, I don't know if he was wasted or not. didn't seem to fit with Torts, but maybe he needed 1 more year to really adjust to the NHL. Either way, I'm glad he's playing so well now.
 
Jams if you go look at my posts from this offseason I was probably Zucc's biggest defender on here and I repeatedly said that Zucc is as far away from a Tortorella hockey player as you can have. Put him in a system where he's given an opportunity to create and have the puck in space and he can be very effective. Bottom line is that any team that boasts Nash and Gaborik has some serious offensive firepower and Torts did not utilize it properly. Also didn't help that he kept Kreider either on the 4th line or in Hartford for not being defensively responsible enough.

And 62 I agree with you on Gabby on the left. It's been beaten to death on this board but when the experiment was obviously not working out Torts in his stubborn ways just kept moving him down the lineup rather than switching him back to the right and admitting he was wrong. I know Al is going to be here any second to say it's on Gabby but it's also the coach's responsibility to put his players in a position to succeed and Torts didnt do that.
 
Let me play devils advocate on the Gabby RW or LW thing. Look at OV. He hated being switched to RW by Oates. Struggled at first, but now he loves it there and is thriving. Gabby couldn't do the same?

With that said I didn't like Torts doing it either, and thought at the time just put him back on RW please. But it has worked when a coach sticks to his guns and says this is better for you and the team long term. Just saying...
 
chuckd3534 said:
Let me play devils advocate on the Gabby RW or LW thing. Look at OV. He hated being switched to RW by Oates. Struggled at first, but now he loves it there and is thriving. Gabby couldn't do the same?

With that said I didn't like Torts doing it either, and thought at the time just put him back on RW please. But it has worked when a coach sticks to his guns and says this is better for you and the team long term. Just saying...
Click to expand...

Al made that point several times. I wasn't a winger so i can't vouch for this personally, but to me OV and Gaborik are very different players. OV loves playing a power game, carrying the puck alot and going hard to the net. Gaborik is more of a sniper who depends on getting open, having somebody get him the puck and scoring with his wrist shot. That's why he was so ineffective when he got hurt, his wrister was gone. I think changing sides is much more drastic for a player like Gabby who depends so heavily on his release and being fed the puck. All of a sudden, he was getting the puck on his off side and his release was screwed up. OV can get around somebody regardless of which side he's on.
 
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Dump...4 years at 2m for Boyle? Never thought I'd hear that out of you. I like Boyle, especially now that AV is actually using him the way he's supposed to be used, but 4 yrs might be a bit much for him.
 
theProdigy223 said:
Jams if you go look at my posts from this offseason I was probably Zucc's biggest defender on here and I repeatedly said that Zucc is as far away from a Tortorella hockey player as you can have. Put him in a system where he's given an opportunity to create and have the puck in space and he can be very effective. Bottom line is that any team that boasts Nash and Gaborik has some serious offensive firepower and Torts did not utilize it properly. Also didn't help that he kept Kreider either on the 4th line or in Hartford for not being defensively responsible enough.

And 62 I agree with you on Gabby on the left. It's been beaten to death on this board but when the experiment was obviously not working out Torts in his stubborn ways just kept moving him down the lineup rather than switching him back to the right and admitting he was wrong. I know Al is going to be here any second to say it's on Gabby but it's also the coach's responsibility to put his players in a position to succeed and Torts didnt do that.
Click to expand...

Prod, after the way Gaborik was treated by Tort's, by the time he was traded he was just a shell of his former self. He was no longer considered anywhere close to being a real scoring threat by most Ranger fans. Before Nash came on the scene, when Gaborik was the only true goal scorer, he was a marked man by anybody he stepped on the ice against. For 60 minutes he would get beaten up and left for dead. And If I were coaching against the Rangers, that's exactly the way I would approach the match-up. Take Gaborik out, and make the grinders beat us. The problem I have with the Sather (among other things), is that he never got Gaborik any protection, and you see the same thing now with Nash. You never saw that when he was coaching in Edmonton, where somebody was always on the ice to watch Gretzky's back. Not saying Gaborik is Gretzky, but he did deserve much better than what he got from Sather and Tort's and so do the fans. What this Ranger team needs is another Nick Fotiu.

As for Zuc, that wasn't really directed at you but to all the fans who werent happy with him during Tort's time at the Garden and wanted him gone. I can't honestly say that I expected this type of play out of him, but I love witnessing it. Zuccarello is a big beneficiary of AV's system, and when he is on the ice he has the ability to make his linemates 10x better.
 
Boyle s not bad playing on the 4th line and PK. If he could just chip in a few more goals that would be great. still can't believed he score 21 g a few seasons ago. He does play well in the playoffs and that's always a plus, especially with role
Players.... Hell, he outperformed Nash last year. If Tortonto
Didn't choke the Rangers would have probably beat them a d made it to the conference finals again.

I wouldn't give him a raise, I think 4 years 6.4 Million is good. He's from Mass so I can't imagine he would be interested in signing anywhere other than the Northeast. On the other hand I can't imagine him not going to free agency to see what he's worth.
 
What is with all this 4 years stuff. Boyle cannot demand 4 years, that is too long. 2 years tops. 1.7 to 2 mill per tops.
 
jamsim67 said:
Prod, after the way Gaborik was treated by Tort's, by the time he was traded he was just a shell of his former self. He was no longer considered anywhere close to being a real scoring threat by most Ranger fans. Before Nash came on the scene, when Gaborik was the only true goal scorer, he was a marked man by anybody he stepped on the ice against. For 60 minutes he would get beaten up and left for dead. And If I were coaching against the Rangers, that's exactly the way I would approach the match-up. Take Gaborik out, and make the grinders beat us. The problem I have with the Sather (among other things), is that he never got Gaborik any protection, and you see the same thing now with Nash. You never saw that when he was coaching in Edmonton, where somebody was always on the ice to watch Gretzky's back. Not saying Gaborik is Gretzky, but he did deserve much better than what he got from Sather and Tort's and so do the fans. What this Ranger team needs is another Nick Fotiu.

As for Zuc, that wasn't really directed at you but to all the fans who werent happy with him during Tort's time at the Garden and wanted him gone. I can't honestly say that I expected this type of play out of him, but I love witnessing it. Zuccarello is a big beneficiary of AV's system, and when he is on the ice he has the ability to make his linemates 10x better.
Click to expand...

We actually agree more than you think Jams. I agree with the target of Gabby's back, which makes it even more remarkable that he was able to hit 40 goals TWICE under those circumstances. I was strictly talking about the make-up of last year's roster, where we had both Nash and Gaborik. The previous years, especially 2011-12, this team was a grind it out team and Torts was a good coach for them. The the team got more skilled. Entering last year we brought in Nash, Kreider here, bigger role for Hagelin, yet Torts still wanted them to play like Prust and Fedotenko. He wouldnt adjust. He made the Gabby situation worse by forcing him to the left. Who knows how Gaborik would have looked had he been kept on the right where he had so much success. In my opinion last year's team was more skilled than youre giving it credit for. Good debate.
 
I cant believe how some of you bitch and moan about the quality of the team and then turn around and say lets resign Boyle. Hard to fathom, but i guess some of you really, truly like the guy as a player. WE NEED A HIGHER QUALITY 4th LINE..
 
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