[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181759' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:09 PM']what the heck? all you guys have been doing is blaming every loss I point out on a breakdown.[/quote]You pointed out one loss. And I said it was because Smush Parker started playing terribly. I didn't blame it on anything except play on the court. Jesus.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181759' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:09 PM']3 championship rings - gee, thanks shaq[/quote]Okay, I guess any championships where a player is ever a second fiddle to another superstar doesn't count. I guess Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan's championships all didn't count because they had other superstars on their teams.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181759' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:09 PM']8 time all star - gee, thanks shaq for keeping the defense honest[/quote]That must be why he's been an all star both of the years that Shaq has been gone.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181759' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:09 PM']nba scoring champ- well gosh you see, it's not hard to be a scoring champ when you're a black hole on offense[/quote]I'm not even going to acknowledge that with a response.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181759' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:09 PM']first second third team- once again- thanks shaq[/quote] I fail to see how that has to do with Shaq.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181759' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:09 PM']pretty mcuh, he won alot from playing with shaq, and learning from shaq[/quote]And vice versa with Shaq. I'm not gonna argue that Kobe didn't play second fiddle to Shaq in those tile runs, but bottom line is that without him they wouldnt have sniffed the Finals.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181759' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:09 PM']I'm not knocking on kobe. he's the most talented player in the nba. but he isn't a winner. the pacers are.[/quote]In 10 years Kobe has won more championships than the Pacers franchise has. I guess that doesn't make him a winner.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lakaboy42 @ Oct 22 2006, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You pointed out one loss. And I said it was because Smush Parker started playing terribly. I didn't blame it on anything except play on the court. Jesus.Okay, I guess any championships where a player is ever a second fiddle to another superstar doesn't count. I guess Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan's championships all didn't count because they had other superstars on their teams.That must be why he's been an all star both of the years that Shaq has been gone.I'm not even going to acknowledge that with a response. I fail to see how that has to do with Shaq.And vice versa with Shaq. I'm not gonna argue that Kobe didn't play second fiddle to Shaq in those tile runs, but bottom line is that without him they wouldnt have sniffed the Finals.In 10 years Kobe has won more championships than the Pacers franchise has. I guess that doesn't make him a winner.</div>I pointed out more than one loss, I pointed out the whole season.second fiddle comment doesn't make sense. shaq won the titles, not kobe. second of all, johnson, bird, and jordan are in a completely different class than kobe.yup. shaq taught him how to become an allstar. shaq taught him a work ethic that he never had.shaq wins by himself anytime he wants to. kobe can't win by himself.again. shaq won the titles not kobe. if shaq had played on the pacers with cba bench riders he would've won a title. shaq makes hisw teamates better, kobe doesn't.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I pointed out more than one loss, I pointed out the whole season.second fiddle comment doesn't make sense. shaq won the titles, not kobe. second of all, johnson, bird, and jordan are in a completely different class than kobe.yup. shaq taught him how to become an allstar. shaq taught him a work ethic that he never had.shaq wins by himself anytime he wants to. kobe can't win by himself.again. shaq won the titles not kobe. if shaq had played on the pacers with cba bench riders he would've won a title. shaq makes hisw teamates better, kobe doesn't.</div>how can you say that, the Lakers wouldn't have beaten the Spurs without KOBE.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Oct 22 2006, 06:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>how can you say that, the Lakers wouldn't have beaten the Spurs without KOBE.</div>yeah they would have. eddie jones could've, fisher could've... they would havehorry could've
[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181784' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:24 PM']I pointed out more than one loss, I pointed out the whole season.[/quote]You pointed out the loss to Phoenix.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181784' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:24 PM']second fiddle comment doesn't make sense. shaq won the titles, not kobe. second of all, johnson, bird, and jordan are in a completely different class than kobe.[/quote]No, the Lakers won those titles. Shaq was the best player, but Kobe was just as important in winning those championships, and don't forget the role players.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181784' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:24 PM']yup. shaq taught him how to become an allstar. shaq taught him a work ethic that he never had.[/quote]I've been on forums for over a year and I think that's the single stupidest thing I've ever read. Shaquille O'neal has terrible work ethic, in his early years he ditched hard work and training during the summer for rap albums and an acting career. He repeatedly came into camp fat, and only worked hard when he felt like it. Kobe Bryant has always been a fierce worker, ever since he was a kid. He was putting in 7 hours of practice a day in High School while keeping up pretty good grades. Every summer he's in the gym practicing, adding more to his game so he can come back better. There's not a damn thing Shaq could teach him about work ethic. [quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181784' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:24 PM']shaq wins by himself anytime he wants to. kobe can't win by himself.[/quote]Shaq has never won by himself, never. He's only had to play by himself once (in his rookie season) and the Magic didn't make the playoffs that year. Every other year in his career he's had brilliant players around him. Penny Hardaway, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Glen Rice, Kobe Bryant, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Dwyane Wade. He can't win without a star studded group of players backing him up when he starts to get tired or messes up (like in Game 4 of the Finals against your Pacers where he fouled out in the 4th quarter and a 21 year old Kobe took over in crunch time).[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181784' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:24 PM']again. shaq won the titles not kobe. if shaq had played on the pacers with cba bench riders he would've won a title. shaq makes hisw teamates better, kobe doesn't.[/quote]Yet again, the Lakers won the championships. Yes Shaq won them, but so did Kobe, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher and all the other players. It wasn't all because of one player. And if Shaq could win with such scrubs, how did he come so close to losing in 2000 and 2002 when he was surrounded by a superstar guard and one of the best supporting casts in the league. If it was so easy for him, shouldn't the Lakers have won the chip every year he was there?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>yeah they would have. eddie jones could've, fisher could've... they would havehorry could've</div>eddie jones is no kobe bryant, you obviously didn't see that series...........jones won't be good enough for them to overcome the Spurs that year. Phil even has to abandon his triangle offense because of the Spurs defense and I don't think any person beside KOBE could have made a difference.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lakaboy42 @ Oct 22 2006, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You pointed out the loss to Phoenix.No, the Lakers won those titles. Shaq was the best player, but Kobe was just as important in winning those championships, and don't forget the role players.I've been on forums for over a year and I think that's the single stupidest thing I've ever read. Shaquille O'neal has terrible work ethic, in his early years he ditched hard work and training during the summer for rap albums and an acting career. He repeatedly came into camp fat, and only worked hard when he felt like it. Kobe Bryant has always been a fierce worker, ever since he was a kid. He was putting in 7 hours of practice a day in High School while keeping up pretty good grades. Every summer he's in the gym practicing, adding more to his game so he can come back better. There's not a damn thing Shaq could teach him about work ethic. Shaq has never won by himself, never. He's only had to play by himself once (in his rookie season) and the Magic didn't make the playoffs that year. Every other year in his career he's had brilliant players around him. Penny Hardaway, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Glen Rice, Kobe Bryant, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Dwyane Wade. He can't win without a star studded group of players backing him up when he starts to get tired or messes up (like in Game 4 of the Finals against your Pacers where he fouled out in the 4th quarter and a 21 year old Kobe took over in crunch time).Yet again, the Lakers won the championships. Yes Shaq won them, but so did Kobe, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher and all the other players. It wasn't all because of one player. And if Shaq could win with such scrubs, how did he come so close to losing in 2000 and 2002 when he was surrounded by a superstar guard and one of the best supporting casts in the league. If it was so easy for him, shouldn't the Lakers have won the chip every year he was there?</div>he should've but kobe "mr. ballhog" bryant kept messing the chemistry up<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Oct 22 2006, 06:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>eddie jones is no kobe bryant, you obviously didn't see that series...........jones won't be good enough for them to overcome the Spurs that year. Phil even has to abandon his triangle offense because of the Spurs defense and I don't think any person beside KOBE could have made a difference.</div>fisher, big shot bob, fox all could've come up big<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lakaboy42 @ Oct 22 2006, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You pointed out the loss to Phoenix.No, the Lakers won those titles. Shaq was the best player, but Kobe was just as important in winning those championships, and don't forget the role players.I've been on forums for over a year and I think that's the single stupidest thing I've ever read. Shaquille O'neal has terrible work ethic, in his early years he ditched hard work and training during the summer for rap albums and an acting career. He repeatedly came into camp fat, and only worked hard when he felt like it. Kobe Bryant has always been a fierce worker, ever since he was a kid. He was putting in 7 hours of practice a day in High School while keeping up pretty good grades. Every summer he's in the gym practicing, adding more to his game so he can come back better. There's not a damn thing Shaq could teach him about work ethic. Shaq has never won by himself, never. He's only had to play by himself once (in his rookie season) and the Magic didn't make the playoffs that year. Every other year in his career he's had brilliant players around him. Penny Hardaway, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Glen Rice, Kobe Bryant, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Dwyane Wade. He can't win without a star studded group of players backing him up when he starts to get tired or messes up (like in Game 4 of the Finals against your Pacers where he fouled out in the 4th quarter and a 21 year old Kobe took over in crunch time).Yet again, the Lakers won the championships. Yes Shaq won them, but so did Kobe, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher and all the other players. It wasn't all because of one player. And if Shaq could win with such scrubs, how did he come so close to losing in 2000 and 2002 when he was surrounded by a superstar guard and one of the best supporting casts in the league. If it was so easy for him, shouldn't the Lakers have won the chip every year he was there?</div>shaq did not have bad work ethic, he practiced hard every day. he also shoots about a thousand free throws every morning at like one. Doesn't seem like it's helping though, but that's a different topic.shaq didn't win as a rookie, but he matured (something kobe has yet to do) into a winner.I pointed out all of last years losses in two words. your season.
those players that you mentioned were the reason why we lost against the Spurs in 03 and all they have to do is knock down open shots consistently and they weren't able to deliver in that series.......if they can't do that then how can you expect them to do what KOBE did.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Oct 22 2006, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>those players that you mentioned were the reason why we lost against the Spurs in 03 and all they have to do is knock down open shots consistently and they weren't able to deliver in that series.......if they can't do that how can you expect them to do what KOBE did.</div>because they could've. it ain't over till the fat lady sings. reggie could've gone 5 for 30 from the field and then hit 10 straight shots with two minutes left to win. any of those other players could've taken over in the clutch, just so happens kobe decide to be a ballhog.
[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181807' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:53 PM']he should've but kobe "mr. ballhog" bryant kept messing the chemistry up[/quote]Kobe and Shaq's feuds only became such a big distraction that the team couldn't win once, that was in the 2004 finals. Other than that they had no excuse for losing except getting beaten straight up. And if Shaq could lead a group of CBA players to a championship, then how come he couldn't lead the teams of the late 90's?[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181807' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:53 PM']fisher, big shot bob, fox all could've come up big[/quote]No, get it through your head. You are wrong. Neither Derek Fisher, Rober Horry, or Rick Fox could take over that series like Kobe did. They couldn't drop 40 on Bruce freaking Bowen two games in a row.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181807' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:53 PM']shaq did not have bad work ethic[/quote]Yes he did. Why else would he come into camp fat? Just answer me that one question, please. [quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181807' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:53 PM']he practiced hard every day. he also shoots about a thousand free throws every morning at like one. Doesn't seem like it's helping though, but that's a different topic.[/quote]No he doesn't. He did that for a couple days in the playoffs about 5 years ago. There's no way that Shaquille O'neal wakes up at one in the morning, and shoots thousands of free throws.[quote name='Pacers fan forever' post='181807' date='Oct 22 2006, 03:53 PM']shaq didn't win as a rookie, but he matured (something kobe has yet to do) into a winner.[/quote]Ask anyone in the Lakers organization, ask anyone that has watched Kobe for years (like me), he has matured. You can tell by watching him and listening to him after the game, and what other guys are saying about him. He used to be a cocky teenager who wanted to prove how great of a player he was at the cost of winning, he's now a determined leader who works to win at all costs. Listen to what the team says about him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lakaboy42 @ Oct 22 2006, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe and Shaq's feuds only became such a big distraction that the team couldn't win once, that was in the 2004 finals. Other than that they had no excuse for losing except getting beaten straight up. And if Shaq could lead a group of CBA players to a championship, then how come he couldn't lead the teams of the late 90's?No, get it through your head. You are wrong. Neither Derek Fisher, Rober Horry, or Rick Fox could take over that series like Kobe did. They couldn't drop 40 on Bruce freaking Bowen two games in a row.Yes he did. Why else would he come into camp fat? Just answer me that one question, please. No he doesn't. He did that for a couple days in the playoffs about 5 years ago. There's no way that Shaquille O'neal wakes up at one in the morning, and shoots thousands of free throws.Ask anyone in the Lakers organization, ask anyone that has watched Kobe for years (like me), he has matured. You can tell by watching him and listening to him after the game, and what other guys are saying about him. He used to be a cocky teenager who wanted to prove how great of a player he was at the cost of winning, he's now a determined leader who works to win at all costs. Listen to what the team says about him.</div>who cares if shaq came fat? he still won. other people coming in fat, like barkely, that was a problem, but shaq won fat. kobe messed up the team before 2004. shaq has a work ethic. the general publeic (like you) doesn't relize it.bruce bowen is not that great of a defender. if you concentrate you can drop 40 on him.kobe bryant has not matured because he has not won without shaq.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>who cares if shaq came fat? he still won. other people coming in fat, like barkely, that was a problem, but shaq won fat.</div>No, no he didn't. They won in 2000, 2001, and 2002. He was in shape for 2000. In 2001 he came a bit out of shape but played himself into shape as the season went on. That's why they started off slow but got better and better. After the 3rd championship he came in extremely fat. He missed the first 12 games because of a toe injury that wouldn't have happened if he was in shape. Then in the playoffs he couldn't dominate like he used to because he didn't have enough energy and wasn't quick enough.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>bruce bowen is not that great of a defender. if you concentrate you can drop 40 on him.</div>Is that players are always dropping 40 on him. Seriously listen to yourself.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>kobe bryant has not matured because he has not won without shaq.</div>There's not a wing in history who could win a championship with the cast Kobe has had around him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lakaboy42 @ Oct 22 2006, 07:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, no he didn't. They won in 2000, 2001, and 2002. He was in shape for 2000. In 2001 he came a bit out of shape but played himself into shape as the season went on. That's why they started off slow but got better and better. After the 3rd championship he came in extremely fat. He missed the first 12 games because of a toe injury that wouldn't have happened if he was in shape. Then in the playoffs he couldn't dominate like he used to because he didn't have enough energy and wasn't quick enough.Is that players are always dropping 40 on him. Seriously listen to yourself.There's not a wing in history who could win a championship with the cast Kobe has had around him.</div>jordan could've, bird could've, johnson could'vethe lakers collapsed because of kobe not shaq
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>jordan could've, bird could've, johnson could've</div>Jordan had a squad like that early in his career. He couldn't even get them to a 500 season. It wasn't until Pippen came and hit his prime that he started winning something. Neither of the other two could either.And the Lakers collapsed because they had too many egoes fighting. Kobe wanted to be the man, Shaq wanted to be the man, Jackson wanted to be the man (which by the way forced Jerry West out). It was just as much Shaq's fault as anyones.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>because they could've. it ain't over till the fat lady sings. reggie could've gone 5 for 30 from the field and then hit 10 straight shots with two minutes left to win. any of those other players could've taken over in the clutch, just so happens kobe decide to be a ballhog.</div>so when the Lakers lose it's kobe's fault but if they win it's because of his teammates Kobe decided to be a ballhog??? He has to take over against the Spurs, or they would've lost that series plus I just told you that fox, horry and fisher can't hit a shot in 03 and you keep saying that they could've have taken over.All they need to do is make an open shot and they can't deliver but you expect them to take over ??? dont make sense my friend.you know what you win, u obviously have no idea regarding what happened during the Lakers 3-peat and it's ok.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lakaboy42 @ Oct 22 2006, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan had a squad like that early in his career. He couldn't even get them to a 500 season. It wasn't until Pippen came and hit his prime that he started winning something. Neither of the other two could either.And the Lakers collapsed because they had too many egoes fighting. Kobe wanted to be the man, Shaq wanted to be the man, Jackson wanted to be the man (which by the way forced Jerry West out). It was just as much Shaq's fault as anyones.</div>you put jordan in the 90s withou pippen and he would've won. jordan matured int the 90s. before he was a little like kobe.it was kobes fault. you guys got rid of the wrong guys. shaq and jackson couldn't stand kobe's ego.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Oct 22 2006, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>so when the Lakers lose it's kobe's fault but if they win it's because of his teammates Kobe decided to be a ballhog??? He has to take over against the Spurs, or they would've lost that series plus I just told you that fox, horry and fisher can't hit a shot in 03 and you keep saying that they could've have taken over.All they need to do is make an open shot and they can't deliver but you expect them to take over ??? dont make sense my friend.you know what you win, u obviously have no idea regarding what happened during the Lakers 3-peat and it's ok.</div>all I'm saying is it's possible. we'll never know, but it's possible.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>you put jordan in the 90s withou pippen and he would've won. jordan matured int the 90s. before he was a little like kobe.</div>Puhlease. Jordan wouldn't have won sh*t without Pippen in that era. Detroit, LA, Phoenix, Houston, and Utah all would've whooped the Bulls' asses.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>it was kobes fault. you guys got rid of the wrong guys. shaq and jackson couldn't stand kobe's ego.</div>Jerry Buss made the right decision, he could've kept Shaq and have the best center in the league for another 2 or 3 years or keep Kobe and rebuild his team around a 25 year old who was already the best wing in the league. The Lakers would be in serious trouble right now if they had kept Shaq.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lakaboy42 @ Oct 22 2006, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Puhlease. Jordan wouldn't have won sh*t without Pippen in that era. Detroit, LA, Phoenix, Houston, and Utah all would've whooped the Bulls' asses.Jerry Buss made the right decision, he could've kept Shaq and have the best center in the league for another 2 or 3 years or keep Kobe and rebuild his team around a 25 year old who was already the best wing in the league. The Lakers would be in serious trouble right now if they had kept Shaq.</div>you forget how good jordan was.shaq would've brought you at least 3 more rings. I don't think kobe will ever win another title.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Oct 22 2006, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>you forget how good jordan was.shaq would've brought you at least 3 more rings. I don't think kobe will ever win another title.</div>Alone? Hell no. Shaq needed Dwyane Wade, Pat Riley, Alonzo Mourning, Gary Payton, Antoine Walker, James Posey, and Jason Williams to win one tainted title. There's no way he could bring the Lakers 3 more rings without Kobe.
