debate contest finals; cb4AllStar vs. nba dogmatist

The topic: who will be the better team, the Celtics or the Raptors?deadline: friday. you know the rules.

 

I think you all know who I'm picking. The Boston Celtics. and here is my reasoning.They have a more than solid all-star to build around. Paul Pierce is arguably a top 10 player in the league now. He really does do it all on the court; he's a great scorer, he rebounds extraordinarily well for a guard, he's a pretty good passer, and he's a great leader. One of the clutchest and probably the most consistent player in the league. Not sure on this but I think he's missed 19 games since 2001.They have finally addressed their pg situation, which has been a problem in the past. It's been a while since a true playmaker has been in uniform in Boston. Not only did the Celtics get two playmakers, but they got two guys that can run others out of the gym. Rajon Rondo and Sebastian Telfair are both lightning quick and love to run. Dana Barros mentioned Rondo being on another speed than everyone else on the court. Barros isn't the only one that's been impressed with Rondo so far. After an amazing showing in the Vegas Summer League, two league executives labelled Rondo "The steal of the first round". In three preseason games, Rondo has put up stellar numbers: 15.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 5.7 apg, and 3.3 spg. I know, it's only preseason, but those all-around numbers are still impressive.The celtics lost dead weight and acquired new talent, while Toronto gained some, lost some. People talk about the great moves Colangelo has made this summer, but when it comes down to it, Toronto still lost alot of talent. In the Bucks trade, yes, they gained a much needed playmaker, but they also lost a key talent in Charlie Villanueva. CV was a versatile talent that provided scoring and rebounding. Yes, they signed Fred Jones, Anthony Parker, and Jorge Garbajosa, but they also lost a 20 ppg scorer in Mike James. cb4 will probably tell you how James disrupted the flow of the offense and toook shots away from other players, but the bottom line is, the guy was scoring 20 ppg at a very efficient rate (47% fg's). The Celtics gained Sebastian Telfair, Rajon Rondo, and Theo Ratliff, while only losing Raef LaFrentz and Dan Dickau, who were both needless-to-say trash. So basically, Boston gained another aspect or two (playmaking and shotblocking) while losing two worthless players (Raef was horribly inconsistent and independable. Sure he'd hit a few three's one game, but then he simply wouldn't show up the next two weeks. Dan Dickau couldn't play defense at all and ended up rupturing his achilles 20 games into the season anyways).Boston is a deeper team than Toronto. Not to sound biased, but the Celtics have one of the deepest, most talented benches in the league. Rajon Rondo, Delonte West, Tony Allen, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins/Theo Ratliff. That bench has plenty of scoring, rebounding, and ballhandling. three or four of those guys are even capable of starting. This is compared to Jose Calderon, Fred Jones, Joey Graham, Andrea Bargnani, Jorge Garbajosa. Now this isn't a horrible bench, but it is undoubtedly not on the level of that of the Cs. No rebounding at all, little scoring, and no front court defense.

 

Im taking the Toronto Raptors of course.We were one of the best offensive clubs in the League last year, and we should be right up there again next year. We actually have a play maker now, so we should have alot more chemistry on offense, and a much more efficient offense overall.Also, our defense is much improved from last year. We have okay wing defense now. TJ Ford is terrible, but Mo Pete, Fred Jones, and Anthony Parker are both good defenders, and Rasho can atleast play defense, unlike CV31 and Rafael Araujo of last year :no1: We have Chris Bosh. Big men are very valuable to have on teams. Chris should have a great year. He has improved dramatically every year coming into the League, and I expect another big improvement this season also. TJ Ford will be giving him much better looks than Mike James ever did. They are both from Texas, and are friends also. They should have good on and off the court chemistry. Bosh has a smooth shot. he can rebound, he is very quick and athletic for a PF, and he is starting to finish around the rim more often. He made his first all star trip last year, and he should make it again next season.Our other guys like Mo Pete, Fred, Bargnani, and Garbajosa should contribute from TJ also. We had a great off-season picking up TJ Ford, Rasho, Bargnani, Tucker, Humphries, Garbajosa, Fred Jones, and Anthony Parker. Also, I want to address another important factor about Mike James. We were 0-9 in OT play last year. 1-9! Do you guys know why? Well, let me tell you why. It was because of Mike James hogging the ball down the stretch, and electing to shoot it every god damn time in the closing minutes. TJ Ford will work it around, find the open look, and do what any normal pg would do. We will win more games next year simply because of that factor.Okay, we also have much better offensive big men than you guys do. We have Chris Bosh, Jorge Garbajosa, Rasho Nesterovic, Kris Humphries, and Andrea Bargnani, well you guys have Ryan Gomes, Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, and Theo Ratliff. Also, shooters like Bargnani, and Garbajosa will spread out the oppenents perimeter defense, allowing Bosh to thrive downlow. Things like that may help us win alot of games. Well, this is all for now. Let's get to some of your comments now, shall we?

Well, Bosh is also a great player. Entering his 4th season he should improve alot considering he's improved dramatically every year that he's been in the League. Also, building around a great big man will arguably get you more wins then a great swingman in the league, when you finally get a good supporting cast.

Same can be said for Toronto. TJ Ford is MUCH more of a playmaker than Mike James ever was in Toronto, and he should help energize our offense, and help improve the other players on our team.

Touche, again. TJ Ford is believed by many as the quickest player in the League, and Im starting to believe that after watching him play vs. the Nets the other day. He racked up 11 assists, his motor was always running, and he was constantly able to blow by defenders and get to the hole.

I know Rondo has played great in pre-season, but every player has great games occasionally. He is a rookie, and I he will have to split time with 2 very capable pg's in Delonte West and Sebastein Telfair. I doubt he makes too big of an impact next year. On the other hand, TJ Ford will make a major impact running the Raps offense.

Wow man, you make it seem like you had the much better off-season than us. That is simply not the case. Let's break it down for a second. You got Sebastein Telfair, Rajon Rondo, Theo Ratliff, and other guys that you got but will never get serious PT like Pittsnogle, Allan Ray, Brian Grant, Leon Powe. How many of those guys will even be in your regular rotation? So basically, the significant signings were Rondo, Telfair, and Ratliff. Rondo is a rookie. Yes, he's looked impressive, but you cant expect everything from him in his rookie year. Sebastein is a pg who didnt have success in Portland at all. He is too flashy, and he makes some dumb decisions. It remains to be seen whether he will have success in Boston. Theo is just a washed up center who can block shots. And then you lost Raef LaFrentz, who was a decent scorer for you guys. I dont see how these signings are more significant than the Raptors signings at all.Let's look at what the Raptors did. They improved their team greatly. In the draft they picked up Bargnani, who will be a good scoring threat off the bench for us next year, and should give us atleast 8-10 ppg next year, and PJ Tucker, who is a rough forward who will give you garbage points, rebounds, defense, and he can post up. A type of player like that is very valuable to have. He is fighting with Joey for backup SF minutes. Then we picked up our pg, TJ Ford. He is a better pg to have than Mike James ever was. Mike's 20 ppg were somewhat misleading. He took almost all shots down the stretch (we were 1-9 in OT play for a reason last year!), causing us to lose alot of close games. He was a shoot first pg, not a pass first pg. He shot way too much in my opinion. I think TJ is a much better fit. He will make all the guys on the team better with his court vision, and will provide easy shots with the drive and dish philosophy. He is very capable of doing that. Look at his speed. He will give you 5 less ppg than James, yeah, but look at how many baskets he will set up for other guys on the team? TJ is a much better pg than Mike.Now let's look at our other acquisitions. Fred Jones is going to be key for us. He can play defense, drive to the basket, he is very athletic, he is a good guard to have on our team. He will give you 12 ppg. Anthony Parker is a smart player, good passer, rebounder, very good defender, he does it all. Sam Mitchell says he is the Raps best defender (Dont try to debate this, because I can bring out that article, Dogma.) He made Caron Butler miss his first 6 shots, I think it was, and also held VC to 5-15 shooting. Garbajosa looks great too. He has an NBA ready game. He can stretch out defenses, he has a good shot, and he is a smart player, and should be our backup PF. He can play some defense also. Kris Humphries is a good rebounder, and a good inside scorer, who also has a mid range jumper in his arsenal also.

We wont need Mike James' and CV's scoring next year. We gained alot of weapons offensively, and guys like Mo, and Bosh will get much more touches. We will still be a 100+ ppg team, but with alot more chemistry on offense. I already talked about Mike James so I dont feel like I need to tell you about that again.Sorry man, but Telfair, Rondo, and Ratliff arent going to turn your team around. They were good signings, but Ratliff is an old stiff who can only block shots, and you dont know how Telfair will do running the offense.

The C's have a great bench, yeah, okay...What did that do for them last year? We also have a great bench, and a better starting lineup than the Celtics do. You forgot PJ Tucker, Sow, Humphries, and Darrick Martin also.BTW, I dont even want to do this debate. Ive already expressed this before, and I dont know why Dogma has to get his way in this. No one here thinks the Raptors will do well except Raptor fans, so I am clearly handicapped here.

 

Im taking the Toronto Raptors of course.We were one of the best offensive clubs in the League last year, and we should be right up there again next year. We actually have a play maker now, so we should have alot more chemistry on offense, and a much more efficient offense overall.Also, our defense is much improved from last year. We have okay wing defense now. TJ Ford is terrible, but Mo Pete, Fred Jones, and Anthony Parker are both good defenders, and Rasho can atleast play defense, unlike CV31 and Rafael Araujo of last year :no1: [/quote]and I say that Fred Jones is too small to guard a wing, and Anthony Parker is a decent defender. He won't be able to really lock down any star claiber players.We have Chris Bosh. Big men are very valuable to have on teams. Chris should have a great year. He has improved dramatically every year coming into the League, and I expect another big improvement this season also. TJ Ford will be giving him much better looks than Mike James ever did. They are both from Texas, and are friends also. They should have good on and off the court chemistry. Bosh has a smooth shot. he can rebound, he is very quick and athletic for a PF, and he is starting to finish around the rim more often. He made his first all star trip last year, and he should make it again next season.Chris Bosh is a player that creates for himself, having a playmaking pg won't really help out much. playmaking pg's usually help out the role players more than the stars.Our other guys like Mo Pete, Fred, Bargnani, and Garbajosa should contribute from TJ also. We had a great off-season picking up TJ Ford, Rasho, Bargnani, Tucker, Humphries, Garbajosa, Fred Jones, and Anthony Parker. Also, I want to address another important factor about Mike James. We were 0-9 in OT play last year. 1-9! Do you guys know why? Well, let me tell you why. It was because of Mike James hogging the ball down the stretch, and electing to shoot it every god damn time in the closing minutes. TJ Ford will work it around, find the open look, and do what any normal pg would do. We will win more games next year simply because of that factor.Rasho won't do anything offensively, Humphries and Garbajosa will hav e aminimal effect, and Tucker won't even play. A big reason the Raps were 0-9 or 1-9 in OT play is because they can't make stops down the stretch. period. They will stay in the game until the very end, when it comes to defense. The raps couldn't make the stops, putting more pressure on the offense, thus losing the game. you can't blame it all on Mike James.Okay, we also have much better offensive big men than you guys do. We have Chris Bosh, Jorge Garbajosa, Rasho Nesterovic, Kris Humphries, and Andrea Bargnani, well you guys have Ryan Gomes, Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, and Theo Ratliff. Also, shooters like Bargnani, and Garbajosa will spread out the oppenents perimeter defense, allowing Bosh to thrive downlow. Things like that may help us win alot of games. Well, this is all for now. Let's get to some of your comments now, shall we?the only guy worth mentioning in that group is Bosh. Bargnani plays like a guard and the rest don't have an offense to speak of. Garbajosa is a decent shooter, but he won't be causing any havoc for the opponents. Bosh technically plays down low, but he's more of a face up guy anyways. I will admit it tho, his midrange is lethal right now.Well, Bosh is also a great player. Entering his 4th season he should improve alot considering he's improved dramatically every year that he's been in the League. Also, building around a great big man will arguably get you more wins then a great swingman in the league, when you finally get a good supporting cast.most of the time that's true, but Pierce is no typical swingman. He gets to the line far more than Bosh, and I don't have any numbers with me, but I would say that he scores just as much in the paint as bosh, if not more. and the things that would make a big man more appealing to build a team around (consistency, rebounding, defense) Pierce has. He's arguably the most consistent player int eh league, he's a great rebounding guard (almost 7 rpg compared to Bosh's 9), and Bosh doesn't have the great interior defense that is intriguing about some post players.I know Rondo has played great in pre-season, but every player has great games occasionally. He is a rookie, and I he will have to split time with 2 very capable pg's in Delonte West and Sebastein Telfair. I doubt he makes too big of an impact next year. On the other hand, TJ Ford will make a major impact running the Raps offense.I can understand if he had one good game then a bad game, but he's been lighting it up completely ever since summer league. Doc said Delonte will be playing the majority of his minutes at the 2 this year, so Rondo will basically only be battling Telfair for minutes.Wow man, you make it seem like you had the much better off-season than us. That is simply not the case. Let's break it down for a second. You got Sebastein Telfair, Rajon Rondo, Theo Ratliff, and other guys that you got but will never get serious PT like Pittsnogle, Allan Ray, Brian Grant, Leon Powe. How many of those guys will even be in your regular rotation? So basically, the significant signings were Rondo, Telfair, and Ratliff. Rondo is a rookie. Yes, he's looked impressive, but you cant expect everything from him in his rookie year. Sebastein is a pg who didnt have success in Portland at all. He is too flashy, and he makes some dumb decisions. It remains to be seen whether he will have success in Boston. Theo is just a washed up center who can block shots. And then you lost Raef LaFrentz, who was a decent scorer for you guys. I dont see how these signings are more significant than the Raptors signings at all.did you notice how I didn't mention leon powe or allan ray? it's because I obviously didn't think they were significant. no use in mentioning it. Yes, I realize Rondo is a rookie, but he is also very heady, lightning quick and plays aggressive defense. I'm not "expecting everything from him" at all. I expect that he will push the ball and be a good playmaker for us this year, not to mention being arguably the teams best defender. Sebastian Telfair was held back in a system where he couldn't run. Zach Randolph is a lug going down the court, and Telfair couldn't play how he played best, in a running atmosphere. He is flashy, but he knows when to stop, I've never seen him turn the ball over trying to make a fancy crossover or anything like that. He sometimes gets out of control, but otherwise he has great ball control. and I never said that the raptors signings weren't significant. I said that they "gained some, lost some". that means that yes, they had a few good pickups, but they also lost some talent at teh same time. whereas the celtics got more talent and dropped dead weight. and don't tell me Raef was useful last year. I remember two good games all year, the rest were him missing three's and being soft inside.Let's look at what the Raptors did. They improved their team greatly. In the draft they picked up Bargnani, who will be a good scoring threat off the bench for us next year, and should give us atleast 8-10 ppg next year, and PJ Tucker, who is a rough forward who will give you garbage points, rebounds, defense, and he can post up. A type of player like that is very valuable to have. He is fighting with Joey for backup SF minutes. Then we picked up our pg, TJ Ford. He is a better pg to have than Mike James ever was. Mike's 20 ppg were somewhat misleading. He took almost all shots down the stretch (we were 1-9 in OT play for a reason last year!), causing us to lose alot of close games. He was a shoot first pg, not a pass first pg. He shot way too much in my opinion. I think TJ is a much better fit. He will make all the guys on the team better with his court vision, and will provide easy shots with the drive and dish philosophy. He is very capable of doing that. Look at his speed. He will give you 5 less ppg than James, yeah, but look at how many baskets he will set up for other guys on the team? TJ is a much better pg than Mike.I don't expect Bargnani to do much next year at all. Maybe come in, score a few buckets, get scored on a few times. He won't even be able to play consistent minutes due to his trouble with fouling. Don't even mention PJ Tucker, he'd be lucky to make the active roster. they might as well put (brandon) Hunter, Jr. ont he back of his jersey.just because the raps lost close games last season doesn't make mike james' 20 ppg misleading. he still scored 20 ppg. period.I noticed you left out losing Villanueva. He was very solid last year, and will surely be missed. Not only do you lose a versatile scoring threat, but significant depth in the post. The raps don't really have a back-up Center.Now let's look at our other acquisitions. Fred Jones is going to be key for us. He can play defense, drive to the basket, he is very athletic, he is a good guard to have on our team. He will give you 12 ppg. Anthony Parker is a smart player, good passer, rebounder, very good defender, he does it all. Sam Mitchell says he is the Raps best defender (Dont try to debate this, because I can bring out that article, Dogma.) He made Caron Butler miss his first 6 shots, I think it was, and also held VC to 5-15 shooting. Garbajosa looks great too. He has an NBA ready game. He can stretch out defenses, he has a good shot, and he is a smart player, and should be our backup PF. He can play some defense also. Kris Humphries is a good rebounder, and a good inside scorer, who also has a mid range jumper in his arsenal also.I like Fred Jones, but 12 ppg is a push imo. if he scored 10 I'd think he'd had a good season. Anthony Parker is simply decent. If he was sucha a good all-around player, he woulnd't be rotting overseas for so long. I will agree that Garbajosa has a good shot, he's been playing well so far in preseason, but we have to remember that he is pretty soft and won't be able to guard in the post.We wont need Mike James' and CV's scoring next year. We gained alot of weapons offensively, and guys like Mo, and Bosh will get much more touches. We will still be a 100+ ppg team, but with alot more chemistry on offense. I already talked about Mike James so I dont feel like I need to tell you about that again.[/quote] Yeah, so you gained some, lost some. that still puts you at square one. you may have gained alot of offense, but you still lost alot.Sorry man, but Telfair, Rondo, and Ratliff arent going to turn your team around. They were good signings, but Ratliff is an old stiff who can only block shots, and you dont know how Telfair will do running the offense.The C's have a great bench, yeah, okay...What did that do for them last year? We also have a great bench, and a better starting lineup than the Celtics do. You forgot PJ Tucker, Sow, Humphries, and Darrick Martin also.BTW, I dont even want to do this debate. Ive already expressed this before, and I dont know why Dogma has to get his way in this. No one here thinks the Raptors will do well except Raptor fans, so I am clearly handicapped here. I was never concerned with those guys turning this team around, we were already headed in the right direction. they jsut gave us some missing pieces we needed to succeed. Ratliff will make just as big an impact as Rasho will. What did that do for them last year? umm.. this bench is alot better than last years, and bringing that up is just silly. that's just like me saying "oh, yeah, chris bosh is good, but what did that do for them last year". it could be applied to anything, and it's just childish reasoning. the raps have a better starting line-up?? I beg to differ.TJ Ford > Sebastian Telfair. Okay, so the Raps have the edge here. But Ford isn't lightyears ahead of Telfair in the playmaking aspect. Both players will do the same thing for their teams.Anthony Parker < Wally Szczerbiak. This is easy. Wally is a one-time all-star, while Parker has spent the past few years overseas. Wally is a career 20 ppg scorer at almsot a 50% clip. One of the better ppure shooters in the league.Morris Peterson < Paul Pierce. Pierce is clearly better. Perennial all-star, borderline superstar, Mo Pete is a role player. Pierce is arguably top 10 and undoubtedly top 15. Was a top scorer last year while racking up 7 rpg and dishing out 5 apg. Chris Bosh > Ryan Gomes. Easily. Bosh is an all-star, while Gomes is still only a role player. Althogh by midseason this spot might be taken by Al Jefferson, who will have possibly taken root in becoming a legit low post scoring threat.Rasho Nesterovic < Kendrick Perkins. They do basically the same things, but Perk is stronger and more athletic. Before Perk's shoulder injury around the all-star break, he was averaging a near double-double, including one 19 rebound game if I remember right. Kendrick is the better rebounder, better shotblocker, better player.oh, and I didn't forget PJ, Pape, and Darrick Martin. I left them out, jsut like I left out Ray, scabs, and powe. They won't do anything! Shame on you for even mentioning Darrick Martin. tsk tsk.and it wasn't just me, KMart and Raptorsfan#! were making a stronger case than I was.EDIT: for some reason the quote code wasn't wroking, so cb4's post is bold-faced and italicized.

 

and I say that Fred Jones is too small to guard a wing, and Anthony Parker is a decent defender. He won't be able to really lock down any star claiber players.Size isnt a huge issue for Fred Jones. He has huge athletic ability, and with his vertical jump, he can contest shots like a 6"6 two. He is aggressive on defense, and he puts an effort on both ends. What are you basing that on, Dogma? How would you know that Parker can't guard star calibre players? Thats just pure ignorance. btw, he made Caron Butler miss his first 5 shots, and held Carter to 5-15. Is Carter not a star calibre guard? He's the best wing defender on our team, and he's getting tough assigments in all pre-season games so far.Chris Bosh is a player that creates for himself, having a playmaking pg won't really help out much. playmaking pg's usually help out the role players more than the stars.Duh, man. He has created for himself because Mike James was unable to drop it to him in fast break situations, or when he is set up in the post. WHEN HE PASSES TO HIM (read the caps), he passes to him out on the wing, leaving Bosh to create for himself on a pump fake, drive, or shot. Whereas, with TJ Ford, and our new running offense, Bosh should get alot more open looks from TJ, and he should be in more situations where he won't have to iso.Rasho won't do anything offensively, Humphries and Garbajosa will hav e aminimal effect, and Tucker won't even play. A big reason the Raps were 0-9 or 1-9 in OT play is because they can't make stops down the stretch. period. They will stay in the game until the very end, when it comes to defense. The raps couldn't make the stops, putting more pressure on the offense, thus losing the game. you can't blame it all on Mike James.Well, Rasho is only there for rebounds, and some sort of defensive ability. You're right, Humphries will have a minimal effect, but you're wrong on Garbajosa. There you go with your blatant ignorance. Dude, you don't even know our depth charts. Stop trying to be Mr. NoAllAboutTheRaptorsWhenINeverSeeThemPlay. Garbajosa is a smart player, he brings defense, and shooting touch. He is going to backup Bosh, and should put in 5-8 ppg behind Bosh, and maybe Rasho on some occasions. Heck, he can even play SF. He will get time. Youre wrong on Tucker also. He is challenging Graham for backup minuutes, and YES, HE WILL PLAY!Let me expand on your thoughts a little bit. Yes, we werent able to make stops, but maybe Mike James ball hogging hindered our offensive abiility, meaning that we weren't able to generate enough offense to beat the other team. Understand? Good. Case closed.the only guy worth mentioning in that group is Bosh. Bargnani plays like a guard and the rest don't have an offense to speak of. Garbajosa is a decent shooter, but he won't be causing any havoc for the opponents. Bosh technically plays down low, but he's more of a face up guy anyways. I will admit it tho, his midrange is lethal right now.Wow, dude. I said scoring bigman, not inside points Bargnani will give us 8-10 a game because of his sleek outside game, and quick step. Oh thanks, good to knoow from Mr. Raps scout here that Garbajosa won't generate points. DUDE! You've never even seen him, so how the hell would you know, and why should I listen to you? Jorge is a good offensive player. He can post up, put it on the floor, and shoot. He will give us enough points to count on two hands all season. Stop talking. Youre so frigging ignorant.most of the time that's true, but Pierce is no typical swingman. He gets to the line far more than Bosh, and I don't have any numbers with me, but I would say that he scores just as much in the paint as bosh, if not more. and the things that would make a big man more appealing to build a team around (consistency, rebounding, defense) Pierce has. He's arguably the most consistent player int eh league, he's a great rebounding guard (almost 7 rpg compared to Bosh's 9), and Bosh doesn't have the great interior defense that is intriguing about some post playersWell, Bosh does have rebounding, and consistency. Pierce does not have inside defense, so I dont know what youre talking about. I meant that getting a very high percentage of shots, near the basket usually, is very efficient, and it draws defenders in, allowing open shots for other players.I can understand if he had one good game then a bad game, but he's been lighting it up completely ever since summer league. Doc said Delonte will be playing the majority of his minutes at the 2 this year, so Rondo will basically only be battling Telfair for minutes.Well, Summer league and a few pre-season games dont exactly translate into great regular season play. My point is that he is a rookie, splitting time with other good players. He'll be good, but not a huge factor. And Delonte will spend some time at pg. Like what youve said before, there is a pretty big log jam at pg for the Celtics.did you notice how I didn't mention leon powe or allan ray? it's because I obviously didn't think they were significant. no use in mentioning it. Yes, I realize Rondo is a rookie, but he is also very heady, lightning quick and plays aggressive defense. I'm not "expecting everything from him" at all. I expect that he will push the ball and be a good playmaker for us this year, not to mention being arguably the teams best defender. Sebastian Telfair was held back in a system where he couldn't run. Zach Randolph is a lug going down the court, and Telfair couldn't play how he played best, in a running atmosphere. He is flashy, but he knows when to stop, I've never seen him turn the ball over trying to make a fancy crossover or anything like that. He sometimes gets out of control, but otherwise he has great ball control. and I never said that the raptors signings weren't significant. I said that they "gained some, lost some". that means that yes, they had a few good pickups, but they also lost some talent at teh same time. whereas the celtics got more talent and dropped dead weight. and don't tell me Raef was useful last year. I remember two good games all year, the rest were him missing three's and being soft inside.Well, thats different. Leon Powe and Allan Ray have to fight to even make the 12 man rotation, whereas all the guys I mentioned will be on the 12 man rotation, getting PT almost every game. Yeah, I understand why you are so hyped with him, but 2 things. 1)He is a rookie, and he will eventually hit the rookie wall, and 2)He has to split time with Telfair, and Delonte at the point. He will get like 20 mpg at best. Telfair on the other hand, is a below average starting pg in the league. He makes stupid decisions, gets out of control at times, and he is not a great threat scoring the ball either. But the talent that the Celtics gained isnt nearly equivalent to what the Raptors got this off-season, and the players they lost wouldnt even be needed with the new players we have now, so what's the difference? Bargnani + Garbajosa will replace CV, and do the same job, except we actually have a center who can play some defense now, and TJ Ford is a much more effective pg for us than Mike James. Do you see what I mean?I don't expect Bargnani to do much next year at all. Maybe come in, score a few buckets, get scored on a few times. He won't even be able to play consistent minutes due to his trouble with fouling. Don't even mention PJ Tucker, he'd be lucky to make the active roster. they might as well put (brandon) Hunter, Jr. ont he back of his jersey.just because the raps lost close games last season doesn't make mike james' 20 ppg misleading. he still scored 20 ppg. period.I noticed you left out losing Villanueva. He was very solid last year, and will surely be missed. Not only do you lose a versatile scoring threat, but significant depth in the post. The raps don't really have a back-up Center.Well with Bosh battling in the post, and from 8 feet out, he'll be able to draw in defenders, leaving wing shooters like Peterson and Bargnani open. Thats how Bargnani will get alot of his points, combined with his nice quick step also. I think 8-10 ppg from him is totally fair. He fouls alot, yeah, will that milit his minutes? No. Sam recognizes that he will be apart of our future, so he will put him in there. He's our #1 big off the bench. What? PJ T ucker is battling with Joey Graham for the backup SF minutes, and it is about even. And yeah, he will be on the active roster. I see Darrick Martin, Uros Slokar, and Pape Sow on the IR. I dont know if youve noticed what he's been doing in pre-season, but he's been finding his own out there. He's been averaging 8.5 ppg on 70% shooting in 15 mpg. Is that not good? He will be on the active roster, and should duke it out with Joey for minutes. He's a tough as nails wing who can battle inside, and drive to the lane. He plays D and gets boards too.Mike James scored 20 ppg yeah, but it is misleading. He shot the ball a ton, had the ball in pretty much every possession, and got 37 mpg. He had total control of our offense, and he took advantage of that. He failed to spread the ball around. We will be much better off with TJ Ford than Mike James because TJ will give you 15 points a game, and he will be an unbelievable passer. He'll get us alot of easy transition points also. We're being nicknamed Phoenix North for a reason. We don't have a backup Center? WTF? Garbajosa can play Center, so can Bargnani. Uros Slokar and Pape Sow are on our roster too. That's 5 capable center's on our 15 man roster. Garbajosa and Bargnani will make up for CV's offense. And dont get me started on his defense. Rasho is a HUGE improvement defending the post than CV. CV is one of the worst defenders in the League.I was never concerned with those guys turning this team around, we were already headed in the right direction. they jsut gave us some missing pieces we needed to succeed. Ratliff will make just as big an impact as Rasho will. What did that do for them last year? umm.. this bench is alot better than last years, and bringing that up is just silly. that's just like me saying "oh, yeah, chris bosh is good, but what did that do for them last year". it could be applied to anything, and it's just childish reasoning. the raps have a better starting line-up?? I beg to differ.Chris Bosh actually has a decent supporting cast. Mark my word. We will make/be in the close running for the playoffs next year.TJ Ford > Sebastian Telfair. Okay, so the Raps have the edge here. But Ford isn't lightyears ahead of Telfair in the playmaking aspect. Both players will do the same thing for their teams.Anthony Parker < Wally Szczerbiak. This is easy. Wally is a one-time all-star, while Parker has spent the past few years overseas. Wally is a career 20 ppg scorer at almsot a 50% clip. One of the better ppure shooters in the league.Morris Peterson < Paul Pierce. Pierce is clearly better. Perennial all-star, borderline superstar, Mo Pete is a role player. Pierce is arguably top 10 and undoubtedly top 15. Was a top scorer last year while racking up 7 rpg and dishing out 5 apg. Chris Bosh > Ryan Gomes. Easily. Bosh is an all-star, while Gomes is still only a role player. Althogh by midseason this spot might be taken by Al Jefferson, who will have possibly taken root in becoming a legit low post scoring threat.Rasho Nesterovic < Kendrick Perkins. They do basically the same things, but Perk is stronger and more athletic. Before Perk's shoulder injury around the all-star break, he was averaging a near double-double, including one 19 rebound game if I remember right. Kendrick is the better rebounder, better shotblocker, better player.Well, if you switch Mo Pete and Anthony Parker's positions it gives Mo the edge over Wally, and I beg to differ on Rasho and Perkins. I think they are equal. I think we have a slightly better starting lineup than you guys. Let's do it this way.Pg-TJ Ford>>>>Sebastian Telfairsg-Mo Pete>Wallysf-Anthony Parker<<<<<<<<Piercepf-Chris Bosh>>>>>>>>>>>Ryan Gomesc-Rasho=PerkinsSo if you do it that way, we clearly have the edge. I think Mo and Parker could switch positions at any time. If we are facing a team like the Jazz, then Parker will be covering Kirilenko, not the SG. Parker will cover the team;s best threat at the sg/sf positions. So it really doesn't matter. We will switch their positions alot.BTW, can we have more time? I was really busy with school and stuff up until now.Edit: Same problem..quotes werent working so I bolded dogma's posts.

 

Size isnt a huge issue for Fred Jones. He has huge athletic ability, and with his vertical jump, he can contest shots like a 6"6 two. He is aggressive on defense, and he puts an effort on both ends. What are you basing that on, Dogma? How would you know that Parker can't guard star calibre players? Thats just pure ignorance. btw, he made Caron Butler miss his first 5 shots, and held Carter to 5-15. Is Carter not a star calibre guard? He's the best wing defender on our team, and he's getting tough assigments in all pre-season games so far.Regardless of athletic ability, Fred Jones is about 4 inches undersized, that's going to make a difference. He would easily get posted up, and people can still shoot over the top of him. It's not like just because he can jump high he'll be able to defend anyone. Just think, Tracy McGrady will be playing against fred Jones. He would obliterate him. there's about a 7 inch difference there. What am I basing this on? Umm, maybe the fact that HE DIDN"T MAKE IT IN THE NBA A FEW YEARS AGO. If he was the lockdown defender you talk about him being, he wouldn't have been playing overseas. and for the record, Gerald Green held Vince Carter to 5-15 shooting. Duh, man. He has created for himself because Mike James was unable to drop it to him in fast break situations, or when he is set up in the post. WHEN HE PASSES TO HIM (read the caps), he passes to him out on the wing, leaving Bosh to create for himself on a pump fake, drive, or shot. Whereas, with TJ Ford, and our new running offense, Bosh should get alot more open looks from TJ, and he should be in more situations where he won't have to iso.umm, he could create for himself, because he can create for himself, it doesn't have anything to do with Mike James' so-called deficiencies (sp?) as a point guard. Having a point guard dish it to him, then create for himself, THEN THE POINT GUARD IS NOT HELPING HIM SCORE (read the caps). And you talk about Bosh being an excellent player in the post, but you say that TJ would get it to him on the wing, where he could work. That means he's not a post up player.Well, Rasho is only there for rebounds, and some sort of defensive ability. You're right, Humphries will have a minimal effect, but you're wrong on Garbajosa. There you go with your blatant ignorance. Dude, you don't even know our depth charts. Stop trying to be Mr. NoAllAboutTheRaptorsWhenINeverSeeThemPlay. Garbajosa is a smart player, he brings defense, and shooting touch. He is going to backup Bosh, and should put in 5-8 ppg behind Bosh, and maybe Rasho on some occasions. Heck, he can even play SF. He will get time. Youre wrong on Tucker also. He is challenging Graham for backup minuutes, and YES, HE WILL PLAY!If Rasho is only there for rebounds and defense, then why the hell did you mention him as an offensive threat?! okay mister knowallaboutgarbajosaafterseeinghimplaytwiceatthemost. You talk about me not seeing them, well YOU HAVEN'T! Really, just think about it. How many players have come from europe UNDRAFTED and had success in the nba? I can't think of any. Sarunas Jasikevicus is a good example. He was considered the best player on one of the best teams in europe, and he comes over and does close to nothing. He doesn't turn out to be the nba point guard he was expected to be and is considered a disappointment. So basically, he had to beat out Anthony Johnson for minutes, and he couldn't. enough said. I've been watching Tucker for 3 years at Texas, and trust me, he is not an nba player. He relies on his strength to rebound and even score for that matter, but he's incredibly undersized. He doesn't have the speed or ball handling to be effective offensively or defensively on the wings. He'll be a tweener.Let me expand on your thoughts a little bit. Yes, we werent able to make stops, but maybe Mike James ball hogging hindered our offensive abiility, meaning that we weren't able to generate enough offense to beat the other team. Understand? Good. Case closed.weren't able to generate offense? you are the one who was saying that they had one of the best offesnes in the league. and I looked it up (courtesy of 82games) and in crunch time (within 5 minutes of the end of the game, 5 points or less of a margin), and Mike James effective fg% was 53%. So you say he hogged, but he made more than the average player would have made. and also, 46% of his shots were assisted. if he was the point guard, truly hogging the ball, no one else would have touched the ball in the offense. that would mean that it's impossible for mike james' shots to be assisted. oh, and mike james had I higher efg% than Bosh. THERE YOU GO. case closed.Wow, dude. I said scoring bigman, not inside points Bargnani will give us 8-10 a game because of his sleek outside game, and quick step. Oh thanks, good to knoow from Mr. Raps scout here that Garbajosa won't generate points. DUDE! You've never even seen him, so how the hell would you know, and why should I listen to you? Jorge is a good offensive player. He can post up, put it on the floor, and shoot. He will give us enough points to count on two hands all season. Stop talking. Youre so frigging ignorant.you said better scoring bigman, and if it's not inside, then why does it matter? if a guard scores those points from the outside, what makes it different than a post? "Mr. Raps scout here"?? are you kidding me? this is a debate, I'm not going to agree with you. and honest to god, how many more times have you seen garbajosa than me?!?! my point exactly. He's a post up player? what? he's known for his shooting, and I have not once heard anything at all about his post up game. ever.Well, Bosh does have rebounding, and consistency. Pierce does not have inside defense, so I dont know what youre talking about. I meant that getting a very high percentage of shots, near the basket usually, is very efficient, and it draws defenders in, allowing open shots for other players.Bosh doesn't have half the consistency as Pierce. He's young, and actually not consistent at all. I never said Pierce had inside defense, I said that bosh didn't have it. that's why I said "Bosh doesn't have the great interior defense that is intriguing about some post players".Well, Summer league and a few pre-season games dont exactly translate into great regular season play. My point is that he is a rookie, splitting time with other good players. He'll be good, but not a huge factor. And Delonte will spend some time at pg. Like what youve said before, there is a pretty big log jam at pg for the Celtics.Rondo's style of play is perfect for the celtics. He plays tough defense, he has an all-around game, and he can distribute the ball. and you talk about how a few good pre-season games won't translate, then why are you arguing that parker and garbajosa are so good?! Parker was run out of the league a few years ago, and Garbajosa's been playing over seas for the last decade, and wasn't even close to being drafted in those 11 years. Why can't you understand that Delonte will play the 2 this year? Delonte will only play a few minutes a game at the one, if he does at all. and you're argument is that there is a logjam, so Rondo won't be effective. So that means that a player would be doing just as good as rondo when he plays, right? my point exactly. When Rondo is not in, Bassy can do some of the stuff that Rondo does, like playmaking, only Sebastian is a better scorer. It's basically win/win with the Celtics' pg situation right now, no matter which way you look at it.Well, thats different. Leon Powe and Allan Ray have to fight to even make the 12 man rotation, whereas all the guys I mentioned will be on the 12 man rotation, getting PT almost every game. Yeah, I understand why you are so hyped with him, but 2 things. 1)He is a rookie, and he will eventually hit the rookie wall, and 2)He has to split time with Telfair, and Delonte at the point. He will get like 20 mpg at best. Telfair on the other hand, is a below average starting pg in the league. He makes stupid decisions, gets out of control at times, and he is not a great threat scoring the ball either. But the talent that the Celtics gained isnt nearly equivalent to what the Raptors got this off-season, and the players they lost wouldnt even be needed with the new players we have now, so what's the difference? Bargnani + Garbajosa will replace CV, and do the same job, except we actually have a center who can play some defense now, and TJ Ford is a much more effective pg for us than Mike James. Do you see what I mean?If you honestly think that PJ Tucker will make a positive impact, then I don't know what to say. He was one of my favorite players in college, but I'm not oblivious. I know that Tucker just isn't an nba player. For the last time, Rondo won't be splitting time with Delonte. West will get minimal minutes at the pg. and like I said before, if Rondo is getting beat out, than Telfiar is obviously playing better than him. How is that bad thing at all? You are underrating Telfair's scoring ability. He has a much improved jumpshot, and he's looking to pass more now.I realize that the Celtics didn't get as much talent as Toronto, but they lost NOTHING. The raptors lost alot of talent! what is so hard to understand about that? Boston did nothing but take steps forward, while Toronto gained some talent while losing other talent. are you kidding me? what's better, Charlie Villanueva AND TJ Ford, or just TJ Ford? obviously having both of them would be better, so don't say that you don't need the other players now. If you say Bargnani and Garbajosa will be as effective as CV, and TJ Ford will have the same effect on the game as Mike James (probably less), then how did they get any better?Well with Bosh battling in the post, and from 8 feet out, he'll be able to draw in defenders, leaving wing shooters like Peterson and Bargnani open. Thats how Bargnani will get alot of his points, combined with his nice quick step also. I think 8-10 ppg from him is totally fair. He fouls alot, yeah, will that milit his minutes? No. Sam recognizes that he will be apart of our future, so he will put him in there. He's our #1 big off the bench. What? PJ T ucker is battling with Joey Graham for the backup SF minutes, and it is about even. And yeah, he will be on the active roster. I see Darrick Martin, Uros Slokar, and Pape Sow on the IR. I dont know if youve noticed what he's been doing in pre-season, but he's been finding his own out there. He's been averaging 8.5 ppg on 70% shooting in 15 mpg. Is that not good? He will be on the active roster, and should duke it out with Joey for minutes. He's a tough as nails wing who can battle inside, and drive to the lane. He plays D and gets boards too.Do you honestly think that Bargnani's foul trouble won't limit his minutes? you're completely oblivious if that's the case. Just because Bargnani is a par to f your future doesn't mean he should be put in the game with foul trouble, that's just illogical. PJ Tucker is not fast enough to guard an nba SF. He is not big enough to guard an NBA PF. He doesn't have the outside skills or ballhandling to make up for this. He is strictly NOT an nba player.Mike James scored 20 ppg yeah, but it is misleading. He shot the ball a ton, had the ball in pretty much every possession, and got 37 mpg. He had total control of our offense, and he took advantage of that. He failed to spread the ball around. We will be much better off with TJ Ford than Mike James because TJ will give you 15 points a game, and he will be an unbelievable passer. He'll get us alot of easy transition points also. We're being nicknamed Phoenix North for a reason. We don't have a backup Center? WTF? Garbajosa can play Center, so can Bargnani. Uros Slokar and Pape Sow are on our roster too. That's 5 capable center's on our 15 man roster. Garbajosa and Bargnani will make up for CV's offense. And dont get me started on his defense. Rasho is a HUGE improvement defending the post than CV. CV is one of the worst defenders in the League.so how is that misleading again? He shot a good percentage, period. 37 mpg is about starter's minutes, maybe a little bit more because Toronto didn't have a good back-up pg. so, in roughly starter's minutes, Mike James efficiently scored 20 ppg. It doesn't matter that he had the ball alot, all pg's have the ball alot. He shot a good percentage, scored 20 ppg, and even dished out about 6 apg. You honestly think Garbajosa can hold up at Center? that's laughable. He's not an inside player, at all. Pape Sow won't even be on the active roster, so why would you mention him as a back up. Bargnani is soft and can't guard in the post, I don't consdier him a center.Well, if you switch Mo Pete and Anthony Parker's positions it gives Mo the edge over Wally, and I beg to differ on Rasho and Perkins. I think they are equal. I think we have a slightly better starting lineup than you guys. Let's do it this way.Pg-TJ Ford>>>>Sebastian Telfairsg-Mo Pete>Wallysf-Anthony Parker<<<<<<<<Piercepf-Chris Bosh>>>>>>>>>>>Ryan Gomesc-Rasho=PerkinsSo if you do it that way, we clearly have the edge. I think Mo and Parker could switch positions at any time. If we are facing a team like the Jazz, then Parker will be covering Kirilenko, not the SG. Parker will cover the team;s best threat at the sg/sf positions. So it really doesn't matter. We will switch their positions alot.why would you switch mo pete and wally? so the raps would then have the edge? okay. And Wally is just as effective as Mo Pete, I'd say they're even. And Ford is not leaps and bounds over Telfair. You bash Telfair for being out of control and turnover rpone, but so is Ford. You bash Telfair for not being able to shoot, but he's just as good of a shooter as Telfair. why are you mentioning who would guard andrei kirelenko? that is the least relevant thing I've ever heard. this is cs vs. raps, not who's going to guard ak. you clearly have the edge? what a joke! and you call me ignorant.

 

Regardless of athletic ability, Fred Jones is about 4 inches undersized, that's going to make a difference. He would easily get posted up, and people can still shoot over the top of him. It's not like just because he can jump high he'll be able to defend anyone. Just think, Tracy McGrady will be playing against fred Jones. He would obliterate him. there's about a 7 inch difference there. What am I basing this on? Umm, maybe the fact that HE DIDN"T MAKE IT IN THE NBA A FEW YEARS AGO. If he was the lockdown defender you talk about him being, he wouldn't have been playing overseas. and for the record, Gerald Green held Vince Carter to 5-15 shooting.yeah, size doesn't really matter. Ben Wallace is a good 4 inches undersized, and he is considered by many as the best defender in the League. Fred plays solid defense, and goes up to challenge shots. No, youre wrong. Fred wont be defending Tmac. Anthony Parker will always get the toughest wing assignment, so Parker will get T-Mac, and Jones will get Bonzi Wells. When Parker goes to the bench, Mo Pete will guard Tmac. Maybe because he was still under contract in Europe? And what does being a good defender have to do with not making the League? Are you saying that all good defensive players have to play in the NBA?umm, he could create for himself, because he can create for himself, it doesn't have anything to do with Mike James' so-called deficiencies (sp?) as a point guard. Having a point guard dish it to him, then create for himself, THEN THE POINT GUARD IS NOT HELPING HIM SCORE (read the caps). And you talk about Bosh being an excellent player in the post, but you say that TJ would get it to him on the wing, where he could work. That means he's not a post up player.Sorry, this whole paragraph did not make sense to me.If Rasho is only there for rebounds and defense, then why the hell did you mention him as an offensive threat?! okay mister knowallaboutgarbajosaafterseeinghimplaytwiceatthemost. You talk about me not seeing them, well YOU HAVEN'T! Really, just think about it. How many players have come from europe UNDRAFTED and had success in the nba? I can't think of any. Sarunas Jasikevicus is a good example. He was considered the best player on one of the best teams in europe, and he comes over and does close to nothing. He doesn't turn out to be the nba point guard he was expected to be and is considered a disappointment. So basically, he had to beat out Anthony Johnson for minutes, and he couldn't. enough said. I've been watching Tucker for 3 years at Texas, and trust me, he is not an nba player. He relies on his strength to rebound and even score for that matter, but he's incredibly undersized. He doesn't have the speed or ball handling to be effective offensively or defensively on the wings. He'll be a tweener.When did I mention him as an offensive threat? You're making things up now to support your case, huh? Ive seen Garbajosa play 4 times actually, and youve never seen him play, so I think I know more about him than you. Well, Garbajosa is 29, so that is not a very good argument. He has already had alot of time to mature, and develop as a player. How many Euro players get drafted at age 29? Being drafted has little to do with his skill set. Wow dude, that was Sarunas' first year in the NBA! He got 20 minutes a game and got 7 and 3. How is that doing nothing? He will obviously get better once he gains more NBA experience. If he was getting the minutes he got in Europe, it would be a different story. What is so bad about a player who is tough, and scores inside? Look at Mark Agguire, and Bonzi Wells. He can score inside, rebound, drive. He will be an effective player for us.weren't able to generate offense? you are the one who was saying that they had one of the best offesnes in the league. and I looked it up (courtesy of 82games) and in crunch time (within 5 minutes of the end of the game, 5 points or less of a margin), and Mike James effective fg% was 53%. So you say he hogged, but he made more than the average player would have made. and also, 46% of his shots were assisted. if he was the point guard, truly hogging the ball, no one else would have touched the ball in the offense. that would mean that it's impossible for mike james' shots to be assisted. oh, and mike james had I higher efg% than Bosh. THERE YOU GO. case closed.Youre still not getting me here. AT THE END OF GAMES, Mike James never passed the ball. He took it upon himself to score points, and when he couldnt, our offense failed. Thats all their is to it. And that is the main reason why we werent able to win close games. Im talking about at the very end of games, where there are say, 2-3 possesions left, so those stats mean nothing to me.you said better scoring bigman, and if it's not inside, then why does it matter? if a guard scores those points from the outside, what makes it different than a post? "Mr. Raps scout here"?? are you kidding me? this is a debate, I'm not going to agree with you. and honest to god, how many more times have you seen garbajosa than me?!?! my point exactly. He's a post up player? what? he's known for his shooting, and I have not once heard anything at all about his post up game. ever.Why does it matter? Because if you can draw big man defenders out to challenge shooters, than it allows Bosh to thrive downlow. whoa, there is quite a difference between seeing someone play 0 times, and 4 times. 0 times you have no idea how he plays, and 4 times you get to see what kind of player he is. Yeah, Garbajosa can shoot, but I have also seen him post up. He is good at getting both inside points, and outside. When did I say he was specifically a post-up player? There you go again, twisting words to try to get the upperhand in the debate.Bosh doesn't have half the consistency as Pierce. He's young, and actually not consistent at all. I never said Pierce had inside defense, I said that bosh didn't have it. that's why I said "Bosh doesn't have the great interior defense that is intriguing about some post players".WTF are you talking about Bosh is not consistent at all? He had 4 games out of 70 where he scored under 15 points, and one was where he only played for 15 minutes. Considering his average was 22, that is very consistent. Bosh brings it every night, and if he has a bad game, he's guarenteed to light it up the next game. Pierce may be very consistent, but so is Bosh. Let's use that formula for Pierce. How many games did Pierce have where he scored less than 7 under his average of 27? 13. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but dont pick on Bosh because Bosh is consistent.Rondo's style of play is perfect for the celtics. He plays tough defense, he has an all-around game, and he can distribute the ball. and you talk about how a few good pre-season games won't translate, then why are you arguing that parker and garbajosa are so good?! Parker was run out of the league a few years ago, and Garbajosa's been playing over seas for the last decade, and wasn't even close to being drafted in those 11 years. Why can't you understand that Delonte will play the 2 this year? Delonte will only play a few minutes a game at the one, if he does at all. and you're argument is that there is a logjam, so Rondo won't be effective. So that means that a player would be doing just as good as rondo when he plays, right? my point exactly. When Rondo is not in, Bassy can do some of the stuff that Rondo does, like playmaking, only Sebastian is a better scorer. It's basically win/win with the Celtics' pg situation right now, no matter which way you look at it.LMAO, Parker was out of the League 6 seasons ago? You think he is not a different player after starring in Europe for 6 seasons? I know Rondo will be good, but he will only be getting like 15-20 mpg, so it's not like the impact TJ will give us. You assume he wanted to be drafted, maybe it was because of other things like Euro contracts, or maybe he wanted to play in Europe? All I know is that after seeing him play in pre-season, he deserves to play in the NBA, and he's been playing well. Delonte will not only play the two this year. That would mean he'd have to battle with Paul Pierce, and Tony Allen for minutes. Delonte would only be getting 5-10 mpg if he only played the two. He will be playing at pg as well. Yeah, except Bassy and Rondo arent half as good as a pg as TJ Ford, and we have a nice playmaking backup in Jose Calderon.If you honestly think that PJ Tucker will make a positive impact, then I don't know what to say. He was one of my favorite players in college, but I'm not oblivious. I know that Tucker just isn't an nba player. For the last time, Rondo won't be splitting time with Delonte. West will get minimal minutes at the pg. and like I said before, if Rondo is getting beat out, than Telfiar is obviously playing better than him. How is that bad thing at all? You are underrating Telfair's scoring ability. He has a much improved jumpshot, and he's looking to pass more now.I realize that the Celtics didn't get as much talent as Toronto, but they lost NOTHING. The raptors lost alot of talent! what is so hard to understand about that? Boston did nothing but take steps forward, while Toronto gained some talent while losing other talent. are you kidding me? what's better, Charlie Villanueva AND TJ Ford, or just TJ Ford? obviously having both of them would be better, so don't say that you don't need the other players now. If you say Bargnani and Garbajosa will be as effective as CV, and TJ Ford will have the same effect on the game as Mike James (probably less), then how did they get any better?Yeah, PJ will be getting 8-10 mpg im guessing with the minutes he'll play at SF/SG/a bit of PF if we go really small. Youre making it seem like he will never play, and that is not the case. He will give us some contributions this year, and his style of play will help us alot. Like I said before, for Delonte to get effective minutes, he will be playing atleast 10 mpg at the pg spot.\What is so hard to understand that we dont need the talent that we lost? We're in a much better situation without the players we lost. You lost Raef LaFrentz, who was a decent scorer as well. You gained two average pg's compared to the rest of the League. Whoopee! We got a shitload of new players, alot of whom will help us alot. We wouldnt have needed Charlie anyway. Garbajosa and Bargnani replace his minutes. If you still dont understand, try to imagine that we had TJ Ford, Mike James, and Jose Calderon. Would we still need Mike James? No, we would have a log jam. How about Bosh, Charlie V, Bargnani, Nesterovic, Humphries, and Sow. That is way too much big man depth, so if we drop Charlie, it is not that big of a deal.LMAO! Did you say that TJ Ford will have less an impact than Mike James did? LMAO, that is such a stupid comment. TJ Ford will make our offense alot better be running, and by gibing guys open looks. He will be able to split defenses apart with his quickness, and get 5 less ppg than Mike James. Whereas Mike James just sat there chucking 3's, taking a crap load more shots than TJ Ford will (700 and some compared to Mike James 1200+!), and not getting our offense flowing, or other guys involved at all. Whereas TJ Ford will make all of our guys better, and get us alot of easy transition baskets as well. If you honestly think that, you're an idiot. And you did say it, so the same insult goes. We got better because we have alot more defense, a way better plauymaking pg, and our offense will be a lot more efficient, and with alot more chemistry.Do you honestly think that Bargnani's foul trouble won't limit his minutes? you're completely oblivious if that's the case. Just because Bargnani is a par to f your future doesn't mean he should be put in the game with foul trouble, that's just illogical. PJ Tucker is not fast enough to guard an nba SF. He is not big enough to guard an NBA PF. He doesn't have the outside skills or ballhandling to make up for this. He is strictly NOT an nba player.Yeah, Bargnani will still get his required 20-25 mpg, and still give us his 8-10 mpg, and once the season gets fired up, his fouls will go down. Why do SF's always have to be shooters to you? You can have a great career being a small inside player. Look at <arl Agguire and Bonzi Wells like ive already mentioned. It is great to have a guard who can get inside points, and rebounds. Thats why teams are so intrigued with Bonzi, even though he will only give them 12 ppg. Also, it is very effective to the surrounding players. If the big man has to cover a SF established in the post, then it allows the stud big man (Bosh) to get easier baskets.so how is that misleading again? He shot a good percentage, period. 37 mpg is about starter's minutes, maybe a little bit more because Toronto didn't have a good back-up pg. so, in roughly starter's minutes, Mike James efficiently scored 20 ppg. It doesn't matter that he had the ball alot, all pg's have the ball alot. He shot a good percentage, scored 20 ppg, and even dished out about 6 apg. You honestly think Garbajosa can hold up at Center? that's laughable. He's not an inside player, at all. Pape Sow won't even be on the active roster, so why would you mention him as a back up. Bargnani is soft and can't guard in the post, I don't consdier him a center.It is misleading because it gave our other guys less shots, and he had the shots attempts to get it. If say, a good shooting pg shoots the ball enough, then he will get that many points as well. Thats why Mike James got a huge increase in ppg over his last year. Because he was able to shoot the ball alot more. That's why it's misleading. Our offense suffered from it. Lol? You say he's not an inside player at all based on what? YOUVE NEVER SEEN HIM PLAY! From watching him play, he can defend the post, and also score inside buckets along with outside buckets. And since when do Centers all have to play inside? Mehmet Okur is an example. Because Pape will still play in some games because of injuries, etc..why would you switch mo pete and wally? so the raps would then have the edge? okay. And Wally is just as effective as Mo Pete, I'd say they're even. And Ford is not leaps and bounds over Telfair. You bash Telfair for being out of control and turnover rpone, but so is Ford. You bash Telfair for not being able to shoot, but he's just as good of a shooter as Telfair. why are you mentioning who would guard andrei kirelenko? that is the least relevant thing I've ever heard. this is cs vs. raps, not who's going to guard ak. you clearly have the edge? what a joke! and you call me ignorant.I would switch mo pete and parker because they are both wing players, and the other way gives you guys the upperhand. If you switched the matchups in our favour it would be Pierce vs. Parker, and Mo vs. Wally. These guys can both play each position so I dont think it's fair to say that both of your wings are better than both of our wings based on awckward matchups. Ford id the better scorer, quicker, better playmaker than Bassy, etc...He is the better player by alot. And Wally is not better than Mo. Mo scores just as much as Wally, and Wally is a bad defender, whereas Mo is above average. Mo will flirt with 20 ppg once he gets TJ passing it to him this season too. Yeah, but Ford can score a ton of points with his quickness, whereas Bassy will only give you 7-9 ppg. I mentioned that to show you that Parker will play both positions depending on matchups. Are you kidding me? If you dont understand that much, why are you even replying to my posts? Yeah, when you switch the matchups in our favour, we do clearly have an edge. Let me re-post it for you.pg-Telfair<Fordsg-Parker<Piercesf-Mo>Wallypf-Bosh>Gomesc-Rasho=PerkinsThat is 3-1-1.

 

[quote name='CB4AllStar' date='Oct 21 2006, 06:24 PM' post='180863']yeah, size doesn't really matter. Ben Wallace is a good 4 inches undersized, and he is considered by many as the best defender in the League. Fred plays solid defense, and goes up to challenge shots. No, youre wrong. Fred wont be defending Tmac. Anthony Parker will always get the toughest wing assignment, so Parker will get T-Mac, and Jones will get Bonzi Wells. When Parker goes to the bench, Mo Pete will guard Tmac. Maybe because he was still under contract in Europe? And what does being a good defender have to do with not making the League? Are you saying that all good defensive players have to play in the NBA?Ben Wallace is a rare exception. He is extremely strong, playing in a position where strength is very important. why do you think he had a contract overseas? because he didn't make it in the nba! if he was really a LOCKDOWN defender, he would have been in the league in the last few years.Sorry, this whole paragraph did not make sense to me.how do you not understand this? having a better point guard is not going to help a player as much if he can already create for himself. You were the one who said that TJ would get it to him on the wing so he could do his thing, any pg could do that.When did I mention him as an offensive threat? You're making things up now to support your case, huh? Ive seen Garbajosa play 4 times actually, and youve never seen him play, so I think I know more about him than you. Well, Garbajosa is 29, so that is not a very good argument. He has already had alot of time to mature, and develop as a player. How many Euro players get drafted at age 29? Being drafted has little to do with his skill set. Wow dude, that was Sarunas' first year in the NBA! He got 20 minutes a game and got 7 and 3. How is that doing nothing? He will obviously get better once he gains more NBA experience. If he was getting the minutes he got in Europe, it would be a different story. What is so bad about a player who is tough, and scores inside? Look at Mark Agguire, and Bonzi Wells. He can score inside, rebound, drive. He will be an effective player for us.When did you say that? right here: "<u>Okay, we also have much better offensive big men than you guys do. We have Chris Bosh, Jorge Garbajosa, Rasho Nesterovic, Kris Humphries, and Andrea Bargnani</u>". How else am I supposed to take that? I'm not making things up at all. oh, and seeing highlights isn't watching him play, and I've seen you post here a few times that you missed the raps game. okay, if garbajosa has already matured in the nba, and he was playing overseas, what makes you think he's going to do all that good here? He's 29, he's not going to improve much, if at all. "that was Sarunas' first year in the NBA!" oh, so that doesn't apply to Garbajosa? it's HIS first year in the nba, too. and like I said, these players are already developed, they're not going to get much better. and why do you think he wasn't getting enough minutes? because he was geting beat out by Anthony Johnson! Yes, he is tough, but he is small, and he's not nearly quick enough to guard on the wings, like Bonzi is. Bonzi is also very very skilled shooting and ballhandling-wise.Youre still not getting me here. AT THE END OF GAMES, Mike James never passed the ball. He took it upon himself to score points, and when he couldnt, our offense failed. Thats all their is to it. And that is the main reason why we werent able to win close games. Im talking about at the very end of games, where there are say, 2-3 possesions left, so those stats mean nothing to me.I see that he was 'being a ballhog', but when he is actually shooting a better percentage than his teammates, then why not shoot it? that means he makes more shots than his teammates would. those satats mean nothing to you, because it proves you wrong, not because of your reasoning you gave. if it were really the last 2-3 posessions, the defense would obviously be the main reason. They couldn't make the stops, and that's why they lost.Why does it matter? Because if you can draw big man defenders out to challenge shooters, than it allows Bosh to thrive downlow. whoa, there is quite a difference between seeing someone play 0 times, and 4 times. 0 times you have no idea how he plays, and 4 times you get to see what kind of player he is. Yeah, Garbajosa can shoot, but I have also seen him post up. He is good at getting both inside points, and outside. When did I say he was specifically a post-up player? There you go again, twisting words to try to get the upperhand in the debate.But Bosh isn't the type of player to post up all the time. His strength is his midrange game, not an iso on the blocks. I'm not twisting your words at all, you said "he can post up", and I have never heard anything on a post game, ever.WTF are you talking about Bosh is not consistent at all? He had 4 games out of 70 where he scored under 15 points, and one was where he only played for 15 minutes. Considering his average was 22, that is very consistent. Bosh brings it every night, and if he has a bad game, he's guarenteed to light it up the next game. Pierce may be very consistent, but so is Bosh. Let's use that formula for Pierce. How many games did Pierce have where he scored less than 7 under his average of 27? 13. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but dont pick on Bosh because Bosh is consistent.scoring totals are not the only thing that indicates consistency. oh, and Bosh scored under 15 5 times, not four, and he scored 15 4 times. He also had several games of low shooting percentages or very low rebounding numbers. When Pierce scores 7 under his average, he is almost scoring as much as Bosh averages, so I don't see where you're going with that.LMAO, Parker was out of the League 6 seasons ago? You think he is not a different player after starring in Europe for 6 seasons? I know Rondo will be good, but he will only be getting like 15-20 mpg, so it's not like the impact TJ will give us. You assume he wanted to be drafted, maybe it was because of other things like Euro contracts, or maybe he wanted to play in Europe? All I know is that after seeing him play in pre-season, he deserves to play in the NBA, and he's been playing well. Delonte will not only play the two this year. That would mean he'd have to battle with Paul Pierce, and Tony Allen for minutes. Delonte would only be getting 5-10 mpg if he only played the two. He will be playing at pg as well. Yeah, except Bassy and Rondo arent half as good as a pg as TJ Ford, and we have a nice playmaking backup in Jose Calderon.So you think after guarding Euro players for 6 years, he's going to get that much better at defense? oh please, the best Euro players are average NBA players offensively. You don't get better by guarding worse players. I never said Rondo was as good as Ford at all. But Rondo and Bassy will be. What a dumb argument. If he wanted to stay in Europe, he would have never signed a contract with that raps. what? I never said he'd play ALL his minutes at the two, I said most of them. and Delonte is LEAPS AND BOUNDS ahead of Tony Allen, it's no comparison. and Paul Pierce plays the 3 anyways. So he would be battling Wally for minutes. This is without mentioning that Doc said he would go with smaller line-ups, with two point guards on the court. Neither Rondo nor Bassy may be as good as Ford, but they give different looks. Rondo is a MUCH better defender than Ford and he plays more under control.Yeah, PJ will be getting 8-10 mpg im guessing with the minutes he'll play at SF/SG/a bit of PF if we go really small. Youre making it seem like he will never play, and that is not the case. He will give us some contributions this year, and his style of play will help us alot. Like I said before, for Delonte to get effective minutes, he will be playing atleast 10 mpg at the pg spot.I never said he won't play, I said he's not an nba player. He may play, but he's not going to make a positive impact. Delonte will get minimal minutes at the 1. Like I said, we'll be going with plenty of dual-pg line-ups.What is so hard to understand that we dont need the talent that we lost? We're in a much better situation without the players we lost. You lost Raef LaFrentz, who was a decent scorer as well. You gained two average pg's compared to the rest of the League. Whoopee! We got a shitload of new players, alot of whom will help us alot. We wouldnt have needed Charlie anyway. Garbajosa and Bargnani replace his minutes. If you still dont understand, try to imagine that we had TJ Ford, Mike James, and Jose Calderon. Would we still need Mike James? No, we would have a log jam. How about Bosh, Charlie V, Bargnani, Nesterovic, Humphries, and Sow. That is way too much big man depth, so if we drop Charlie, it is not that big of a deal.But you DO NEED the talent that you lost to make the jump! And don't tell me that Reaf LaFrentz was a bad loss, he was WORTHLESS. He was soft and ridiculously inconsistent. We're much better off with Ratliff.LMAO! Did you say that TJ Ford will have less an impact than Mike James did? LMAO, that is such a stupid comment. TJ Ford will make our offense alot better be running, and by gibing guys open looks. He will be able to split defenses apart with his quickness, and get 5 less ppg than Mike James. Whereas Mike James just sat there chucking 3's, taking a crap load more shots than TJ Ford will (700 and some compared to Mike James 1200+!), and not getting our offense flowing, or other guys involved at all. Whereas TJ Ford will make all of our guys better, and get us alot of easy transition baskets as well. If you honestly think that, you're an idiot. And you did say it, so the same insult goes. We got better because we have alot more defense, a way better plauymaking pg, and our offense will be a lot more efficient, and with alot more chemistry.When mike james is a better scorer than the guys he would be stting up, then why the hell does it matter?! It's undeniable that James was a better scorer than most of the guys on that team, shooting a better percentage, too. you can't guarantee you will have better chemistry, that' just ridiculous. you don't know if these guys are going to mesh, you did just get 6 or 7 new guys anyways.Yeah, Bargnani will still get his required 20-25 mpg, and still give us his 8-10 mpg, and once the season gets fired up, his fouls will go down. Why do SF's always have to be shooters to you? You can have a great career being a small inside player. Look at <arl Agguire and Bonzi Wells like ive already mentioned. It is great to have a guard who can get inside points, and rebounds. Thats why teams are so intrigued with Bonzi, even though he will only give them 12 ppg. Also, it is very effective to the surrounding players. If the big man has to cover a SF established in the post, then it allows the stud big man (Bosh) to get easier baskets.how do you know his fouls will go down when the season goes along? you're basing that off of nothing. when did I ever say that SF's had to be shooters? that was completely made up. I said PJ Tucker doesn't have the skillset or ballhandling to be a SF. I don't think you understand that Bonzi Wells is a TON more talented than PJ Tucker. Just because he can rebound doesn't mean he can't play like a guard, because he DOES play like a guard. But a big man doesn't have to guard PJ Tucker! That would have ZERO effect on Bosh. you honestly think that any nba coach would put their best interior defender on Tucker rather than Bsoh? oh please. It is misleading because it gave our other guys less shots, and he had the shots attempts to get it. If say, a good shooting pg shoots the ball enough, then he will get that many points as well. Thats why Mike James got a huge increase in ppg over his last year. Because he was able to shoot the ball alot more. That's why it's misleading. Our offense suffered from it. Lol? You say he's not an inside player at all based on what? YOUVE NEVER SEEN HIM PLAY! From watching him play, he can defend the post, and also score inside buckets along with outside buckets. And since when do Centers all have to play inside? Mehmet Okur is an example. Because Pape will still play in some games because of injuries, etc..But that's still not misleading!! He still got 20 ppg on a good percentage! If he's taking shots from players that aren't as good a scorer as James, than it really doesn't matter. I'm basing this off of articles and scouts, and if he really had that strong of a post game, it would have been mentioned by now. I never said a center has to score inside, I said he should be able to defend inside. My point was that if Sow was on the injured reserve, he probably wouldn't make much of an impact even when he did play.I would switch mo pete and parker because they are both wing players, and the other way gives you guys the upperhand. If you switched the matchups in our favour it would be Pierce vs. Parker, and Mo vs. Wally. These guys can both play each position so I dont think it's fair to say that both of your wings are better than both of our wings based on awckward matchups. Ford id the better scorer, quicker, better playmaker than Bassy, etc...He is the better player by alot. And Wally is not better than Mo. Mo scores just as much as Wally, and Wally is a bad defender, whereas Mo is above average. Mo will flirt with 20 ppg once he gets TJ passing it to him this season too. Yeah, but Ford can score a ton of points with his quickness, whereas Bassy will only give you 7-9 ppg. I mentioned that to show you that Parker will play both positions depending on matchups. Are you kidding me? If you dont understand that much, why are you even replying to my posts? Yeah, when you switch the matchups in our favour, we do clearly have an edge. Let me re-post it for you.pg-Telfair<Fordsg-Parker<Piercesf-Mo>Wallypf-Bosh>Gomesc-Rasho=PerkinsThat is 3-1-1.okay, if you think it's weird by switching the match-ups around, then why not combine them? Who's better, Pierce and Wally, or Parker and Mo Pete? Our wings are CLEARLY better. TJ Ford is not a "better player by alot". They are actually very similar. Both are very quick and good playmakers. Bassy is better at defense, they're shooting is about even, and TJ Ford is a better playmaker. That doesn't make Ford a way better player. what makes you think that Mo Pete will flirt with 20 ppg if his CAREER HIGH in points was last year with Mike James? the two years before last year, Mo pete hardly averaged double figures. Ford will score a ton of points? what makes you say that? He will score 3, maybe 4 ppg more than Bassy. whe you switch the matchups in YOUR favor, with a biased viewpoint, then you have the clear edge. what is your point?

 

Ben Wallace is a rare exception. He is extremely strong, playing in a position where strength is very important. why do you think he had a contract overseas? because he didn't make it in the nba! if he was really a LOCKDOWN defender, he would have been in the league in the last few years.It was just an example showing that you can be undersized and still be a good defender. Fred can still guard guys on the perimeter, and with his jump, and athleticism, he can challenge shots, so I dont see the big deal. BTW, he is looking great defensively. He's averaging 1.4 spg in pre-season. He has a nose for the ball. Maybe his defense got better since he came overseas? THAT WAS SIX YEARS AGO! You cant tell me that you dont think he's improved his game, let alone his defense.how do you not understand this? having a better point guard is not going to help a player as much if he can already create for himself. You were the one who said that TJ would get it to him on the wing so he could do his thing, any pg could do that.What do you mean TJ wont be able to help Bosh? He'll be able to give it to Bosh on the fastbreak for dunks, a ton more transition points, and he;ll be able to find him in the post with his drive + pass moves.When did you say that? right here: "Okay, we also have much better offensive big men than you guys do. We have Chris Bosh, Jorge Garbajosa, Rasho Nesterovic, Kris Humphries, and Andrea Bargnani". How else am I supposed to take that? I'm not making things up at all. oh, and seeing highlights isn't watching him play, and I've seen you post here a few times that you missed the raps game. okay, if garbajosa has already matured in the nba, and he was playing overseas, what makes you think he's going to do all that good here? He's 29, he's not going to improve much, if at all. "that was Sarunas' first year in the NBA!" oh, so that doesn't apply to Garbajosa? it's HIS first year in the nba, too. and like I said, these players are already developed, they're not going to get much better. and why do you think he wasn't getting enough minutes? because he was geting beat out by Anthony Johnson! Yes, he is tough, but he is small, and he's not nearly quick enough to guard on the wings, like Bonzi is. Bonzi is also very very skilled shooting and ballhandling-wise.Okay..that is different then saying he is an offensive threat. I listed all our big man on the 12 man roster just to show all our bigs. Plus, Nesterovic will get us like 6-7 ppg . Ive seen him post up, and he can get tip ins. Nothing wrong with listing him as one of our offensive big men. Its not like I said, "You better watch out for Nesterovic! He will give us a ton of ppg!". No, I just listed our big man who can get us points. If I missed the live game, then I always see them on Raptors Game in an Hour, which is a condensed game to 1 hour. So I do have a fair assesment of seeing Garbajosa. What did Sarunas do wrong? He was a good dbackup pg for the Pacers. You cant compare a pg's success to a forward/center's success either. Youre comparing them by age and being European. Garbajosa has a polished game, and from watching him, his game is NBA ready. He should be a good backup, and if he's not, thats fine. We have Humphries, Sow, Slokar who can backup Bosh also. What does Sarunas have to do with what we're talking about? I dont care if he got beat out by ANthony Johnson> Anthony Johnson is a solid backup, and a provem veteran. see that he was 'being a ballhog', but when he is actually shooting a better percentage than his teammates, then why not shoot it? that means he makes more shots than his teammates would. those satats mean nothing to you, because it proves you wrong, not because of your reasoning you gave. if it were really the last 2-3 posessions, the defense would obviously be the main reason. They couldn't make the stops, and that's why they lost.Yeah, he may have made some shots late in the game, but that does not apply to the ones that would give us the win, etc..By shooting so much, our offensive chemistry suffered, and so did our flow on offense. It doesn't prove me wrong at all. Don't you see? It doesn't apply to the 30 second left shots that Mike took. Ive seen the games in my own eyes, and we lost alot of games because Mike always wanted to take the last second shots, when others were open, and we couldnt capitalize. And it wasnt only defense, our offense couldnt come through either when Mike was trying to shoot double teamed last minute jumpers, which I must say he missed alot of. Oh, and I went to 82games.com as well, and Mike James shot .308 on potential game winning shots. So I guess I proved you wrong. Instead of getting the others involved, he shot, and missed alot fo 3's, whereas if he passed it, we could have gotten easier shots, and e would have been in better position to win the game. SO THAT IS WHY WE COULD NOT WIN CLOSE GAMES! Case closed. Oh wait, case isnt closed just yet..Just saw some more stats under clutch performers on 82games. Mike james has the biggest drop off in fg% in clutch situations. Yeah, that;s right, he's -33% his regular average, which puts him at 14% down the stretch! So I think you can STFU now about Mike James ball hogging down the stretch actually helping the team. Case officially closed.But Bosh isn't the type of player to post up all the time. His strength is his midrange game, not an iso on the blocks. I'm not twisting your words at all, you said "he can post up", and I have never heard anything on a post game, ever.Bosh shoots on the perimeter quite a bit, but youre saying that he is uncapable of scoring points inside also? Wow, that's untrue. Part of the reason we got Bargnani was to help compliment Bosh inside. Bosh's post game has improved alot from his 2nd season until now. He can post people up, and he is a good inside scorer also. Same thing with Garbajosa. "The porn player" has a very polished game, and he can shoot, post up, shot fake, etc..scoring totals are not the only thing that indicates consistency. oh, and Bosh scored under 15 5 times, not four, and he scored 15 4 times. He also had several games of low shooting percentages or very low rebounding numbers. When Pierce scores 7 under his average, he is almost scoring as much as Bosh averages, so I don't see where you're going with that.Yeah, the 5th time he got injured in the first quarter, so I didnt count that one. You dont see where im going with that? It has to do with consistency. How well a player can maintain his average. Bosh is a consistent player so you had no right telling me that Bosh is very inconsistent.So you think after guarding Euro players for 6 years, he's going to get that much better at defense? oh please, the best Euro players are average NBA players offensively. You don't get better by guarding worse players. I never said Rondo was as good as Ford at all. But Rondo and Bassy will be. What a dumb argument. If he wanted to stay in Europe, he would have never signed a contract with that raps. what? I never said he'd play ALL his minutes at the two, I said most of them. and Delonte is LEAPS AND BOUNDS ahead of Tony Allen, it's no comparison. and Paul Pierce plays the 3 anyways. So he would be battling Wally for minutes. This is without mentioning that Doc said he would go with smaller line-ups, with two point guards on the court. Neither Rondo nor Bassy may be as good as Ford, but they give different looks. Rondo is a MUCH better defender than Ford and he plays more under control.Yeah, its very possible actually. Guarding Euro players would allow him to dominate defensively, and improve his defense altogether. We've already seen that he can play defense in the NBA also, seeing as there is an entire article where Coach Mitchell says that he is the best defender on the team, and that he will anchor our defense. Ive been watching him in pre-season, and he does a good job defensively. Well, Ford will be improving a ton also. Youre forgetting that last year was Ford's 2nd NBA season. Bassy has had 2 seasons also. Bassy will never be as good as Ford. Rondo has the chance to be, but that will be a LONG time from now. And we're talking about this season, so why does that even matter? Maybe he HAD a sonctract with Maccabi Tel Aviv up until now? Ever thought about that? That's why Tiago Splitter hasnt gone in the draft yet. It doesn't matter if he is "leaps and bounds" ahead of Tony Allen. Tony will have to get minutes also, so he would split some with Delonte. Okay..withe..how many minutes does Wally play a game? 37. That leaves roughly 10-11 minutes for TA/Delonte to play. EVen if Delonte got ALL of those minutes, do you think a player like Delonte would only get 10 mpg? No. He deserves atleast 20, so he will spend some time at PG also. And TA will get some of those minutes at SG also. Dont make it seem like TA will sit on the bench the whole year, he's a damn good player. Yeah, okay...Ford is much better scorer, passer, leader, veteran than Rondo. We already have pretty good wing defense with Parker/Jones/Peterson anyway.. never said he won't play, I said he's not an nba player. He may play, but he's not going to make a positive impact. Delonte will get minimal minutes at the 1. Like I said, we'll be going with plenty of dual-pg line-ups.What do you mean he wont make a positive impact? He rebounds, he's tough, gritty, he plays defense, he can score downlow. How is that not making an impact. Hell, his shot could even improve some. Delonte will be getting like 10 mpg at the 1 whether you want to face it or not.But you DO NEED the talent that you lost to make the jump! And don't tell me that Reaf LaFrentz was a bad loss, he was WORTHLESS. He was soft and ridiculously inconsistent. We're much better off with Ratliff.What do you mean we havnt made the jump? We've come from a sh*tty team that sucked, to a viable playoff contender team. Want me to list what we've improved on? We've got a playmaker at pg finally, we have more than 1 SG finally, we will have more transition points, we will run, Bosh/Mo/all the others will get easier points/better perimeter defense/better post defense/alot more depth/And Bosh is one more year experienced. With all the things we've improved on, giving up freaking Mike James, and also Charlie is not neccesarily a bad thing, because we dont need them anymore.When mike james is a better scorer than the guys he would be stting up, then why the hell does it matter?! It's undeniable that James was a better scorer than most of the guys on that team, shooting a better percentage, too. you can't guarantee you will have better chemistry, that' just ridiculous. you don't know if these guys are going to mesh, you did just get 6 or 7 new guys anyways.Mike only scored 20 ppg because he had the ball on every possession, and he took adantage of that, and started shooting alot more than he should have. He hadnt scored more than like 12 for his career before landing here? You wanna know why he improved so much? Because he can shoot, and he took advantage of his ability to shoot. So youre basically saying that because Mike James scored more points then alot of his teammates, he didnt have to share the ball? WTF? Every pg is supposed to distribute the ball. Thats how you get offensive chemistry, easier points, and more flow to the offense. What are you talking about? I can argue better chemistry because TJ Ford will give the guys on the court the ball, unlike Mike James. We will also be running, which creates alot of chemistry and offensive flow.how do you know his fouls will go down when the season goes along? you're basing that off of nothing. when did I ever say that SF's had to be shooters? that was completely made up. I said PJ Tucker doesn't have the skillset or ballhandling to be a SF. I don't think you understand that Bonzi Wells is a TON more talented than PJ Tucker. Just because he can rebound doesn't mean he can't play like a guard, because he DOES play like a guard. But a big man doesn't have to guard PJ Tucker! That would have ZERO effect on Bosh. you honestly think that any nba coach would put their best interior defender on Tucker rather than Bsoh? oh please. Because he will work on that in practice, and he will learn soon enough to stop fouling all the time. You said that PJ Tucker was not an NBA player. I was guessing you based that on the fact that he is not a perimeter player on offense, or else why else would you say that? you dont have to be a perimeter player to be effective in the NBA. PJ getting rebounds, flexing his muscles downlow, and scoring inside points will actually help us out, and help compliment the perimeter shooters on the squad. Oh please, with Tucker's strength he would destroy any wing in the NBA downlow. Do SF's usually get posted up inside, because I wasnt aware of that. When PJ gets the ball inside, one of the bigs will have to help out, creating a mismatch for Bosh.But that's still not misleading!! He still got 20 ppg on a good percentage! If he's taking shots from players that aren't as good a scorer as James, than it really doesn't matter. I'm basing this off of articles and scouts, and if he really had that strong of a post game, it would have been mentioned by now. I never said a center has to score inside, I said he should be able to defend inside. My point was that if Sow was on the injured reserve, he probably wouldn't make much of an impact even when he did play.He got 20 ppg, but thats because he took way more shots than he was supposed to, and our other guys suffered because of it because they never got the ball on alot of possessions. Okay, so since you base everything on scouting reports, here's a report I found."He's every coach's dream player. He fully understands the game, he's smart, a good passer, can play on the low post, hit the three-pointer, penetrate, play good defense, read the passing lanes extremely well, play a leadership role..."So it says he can play in the low post. Ha. It also says he plays good D, which is true. HE CAN DEFEND INSIDE. When Sow comes back he will be healthy. And he does make an impact. He's a beast on the rebounds, he blocks shots, and doesn't let anyone get easy access in the paint.okay, if you think it's weird by switching the match-ups around, then why not combine them? Who's better, Pierce and Wally, or Parker and Mo Pete? Our wings are CLEARLY better. TJ Ford is not a "better player by alot". They are actually very similar. Both are very quick and good playmakers. Bassy is better at defense, they're shooting is about even, and TJ Ford is a better playmaker. That doesn't make Ford a way better player. what makes you think that Mo Pete will flirt with 20 ppg if his CAREER HIGH in points was last year with Mike James? the two years before last year, Mo pete hardly averaged double figures. Ford will score a ton of points? what makes you say that? He will score 3, maybe 4 ppg more than Bassy. whe you switch the matchups in YOUR favor, with a biased viewpoint, then you have the clear edge. what is your point?Yeah, you're wings are better than ours, but our bigs, and our pg are clearly better than yours also, whereas Mo is better than Wally. TJ Ford IS a better player by alot. He is the better passer, quicker player, better scorer, and his passing is just on another level than Bassy. Ive been watching him in pre-season, and it's just inbeliavable the way he's been passing the ball. If his career high was last year, that obviously means that he hasnt hit his prime yet. I believe that he will flirt with 20 ppg because he is improving offensively, and because TJ Ford will give him great looks, and with our running style he should get alot of open three pointers. I'm guessing he'll get 18-20 ppg next year, which will be more than enough for our 2nd option next year. Ford will score around 15 points imo. He doesn't have Mo WIlliams barking up his tree, he will improve his offense in his 3rd NBA season, and he is one of the quickest players in the NBA. So 14-15 seems around right to me. I dont see Bassy scoring double figures next year with the logjam at pg.

 

[quote name='CB4AllStar' date='Oct 23 2006, 11:48 AM' post='182415']It was just an example showing that you can be undersized and still be a good defender. Fred can still guard guys on the perimeter, and with his jump, and athleticism, he can challenge shots, so I dont see the big deal. BTW, he is looking great defensively. He's averaging 1.4 spg in pre-season. He has a nose for the ball. Maybe his defense got better since he came overseas? THAT WAS SIX YEARS AGO! You cant tell me that you dont think he's improved his game, let alone his defense.okay, I'll try to give you an example. If a varsity player goes down and guards just junior varsity players, no matter how long, he's not going to get better at guarding varsity players. the same principle applies here. nba players are much quicker, stronger, and more talented than Euro players. Just because he played good defense overseas doesn't mean he'll play good defense in the nba. 1.4 steals is nothing to be particularly proud of, Rondo is averaging 2.5.What do you mean TJ wont be able to help Bosh? He'll be able to give it to Bosh on the fastbreak for dunks, a ton more transition points, and he;ll be able to find him in the post with his drive + pass moves.The raptors were already a fastbreak team, and bosh obviously got the ball enough already with mike james when he was scoring 22 ppg. you are acting like mike james simply destroyed chemistry, when he didn't. you are acting like he's the biggest ballhog in team history, when he wasn't. he averaged 6 apg, you know.Okay..that is different then saying he is an offensive threat. I listed all our big man on the 12 man roster just to show all our bigs. Plus, Nesterovic will get us like 6-7 ppg . Ive seen him post up, and he can get tip ins. Nothing wrong with listing him as one of our offensive big men. Its not like I said, "You better watch out for Nesterovic! He will give us a ton of ppg!". No, I just listed our big man who can get us points. If I missed the live game, then I always see them on Raptors Game in an Hour, which is a condensed game to 1 hour. So I do have a fair assesment of seeing Garbajosa. What did Sarunas do wrong? He was a good dbackup pg for the Pacers. You cant compare a pg's success to a forward/center's success either. Youre comparing them by age and being European. Garbajosa has a polished game, and from watching him, his game is NBA ready. He should be a good backup, and if he's not, thats fine. We have Humphries, Sow, Slokar who can backup Bosh also. What does Sarunas have to do with what we're talking about? I dont care if he got beat out by ANthony Johnson> Anthony Johnson is a solid backup, and a provem veteran.so why would you list all of your big men if only one or two was capable of scoring in the post, while the rest won't do a thing on offense? and rasho hasn't averaged 6 ppg in the last two years, I doubt he'll do much better in toronto. I never said that you said rasho would be huge this year, but why mention him at all? that's like me mentioning scalabrine or olowakandi. get you points? oh, 5? give me a break. but sarunas wasn't really a good back-up. He was definitely a dissapointment this year. he shot under 40% and didn't play like a true point guard. Jasikevicius was supposed to be 'nba ready' and 'polished', but like I sadi, he was a dissapointment. Humphries, sow, and slokar? those guys are GARBAGE. my pooint was that if a player is undrafted for all those years, even if they were a beast in europe, that doesn't always translate to nba success. in fact, it almost never does. And I would hardly say anthony johnson is a proven starter. He's a career journeyman who had never played more than 75 games. The only years he plays alot are the years when there was no one else there.Yeah, he may have made some shots late in the game, but that does not apply to the ones that would give us the win, etc..By shooting so much, our offensive chemistry suffered, and so did our flow on offense. It doesn't prove me wrong at all. Don't you see? It doesn't apply to the 30 second left shots that Mike took. Ive seen the games in my own eyes, and we lost alot of games because Mike always wanted to take the last second shots, when others were open, and we couldnt capitalize. And it wasnt only defense, our offense couldnt come through either when Mike was trying to shoot double teamed last minute jumpers, which I must say he missed alot of. Oh, and I went to 82games.com as well, and Mike James shot .308 on potential game winning shots. So I guess I proved you wrong. Instead of getting the others involved, he shot, and missed alot fo 3's, whereas if he passed it, we could have gotten easier shots, and e would have been in better position to win the game. SO THAT IS WHY WE COULD NOT WIN CLOSE GAMES! Case closed. Oh wait, case isnt closed just yet..Just saw some more stats under clutch performers on 82games. Mike james has the biggest drop off in fg% in clutch situations. Yeah, that;s right, he's -33% his regular average, which puts him at 14% down the stretch! So I think you can STFU now about Mike James ball hogging down the stretch actually helping the team. Case officially closed.isn't the last 30 seconds also in the last 5 minutes? so yes, those stats DO apply. and like I said, about 46% of his shots were assisted, so it was obviously IN THE FLOW of the offense. I never once said that it was all the defense's fault. all the blame can't be placed on one aspect. I said the MAIN reason was the poor defense. It happens with alot of teams. They can't make stops at the ends of games, so they pay for it. you proved me wrong? how many people honestly shoot better than that on a last second play? not many. oh my god, why do you always say 'stfu'. so childish.Bosh shoots on the perimeter quite a bit, but youre saying that he is uncapable of scoring points inside also? Wow, that's untrue. Part of the reason we got Bargnani was to help compliment Bosh inside. Bosh's post game has improved alot from his 2nd season until now. He can post people up, and he is a good inside scorer also. Same thing with Garbajosa. "The porn player" has a very polished game, and he can shoot, post up, shot fake, etc..did I ever say he was incapable of posting up? no, I just said he is more of a midrange/perimeter type of post. He's not the guy to just sit on the block. I'm not even going to ask about the porn player thing.Yeah, its very possible actually. Guarding Euro players would allow him to dominate defensively, and improve his defense altogether. We've already seen that he can play defense in the NBA also, seeing as there is an entire article where Coach Mitchell says that he is the best defender on the team, and that he will anchor our defense. Ive been watching him in pre-season, and he does a good job defensively. Well, Ford will be improving a ton also. Youre forgetting that last year was Ford's 2nd NBA season. Bassy has had 2 seasons also. Bassy will never be as good as Ford. Rondo has the chance to be, but that will be a LONG time from now. And we're talking about this season, so why does that even matter? Maybe he HAD a sonctract with Maccabi Tel Aviv up until now? Ever thought about that? That's why Tiago Splitter hasnt gone in the draft yet. It doesn't matter if he is "leaps and bounds" ahead of Tony Allen. Tony will have to get minutes also, so he would split some with Delonte. Okay..withe..how many minutes does Wally play a game? 37. That leaves roughly 10-11 minutes for TA/Delonte to play. EVen if Delonte got ALL of those minutes, do you think a player like Delonte would only get 10 mpg? No. He deserves atleast 20, so he will spend some time at PG also. And TA will get some of those minutes at SG also. Dont make it seem like TA will sit on the bench the whole year, he's a damn good player. Yeah, okay...Ford is much better scorer, passer, leader, veteran than Rondo. We already have pretty good wing defense with Parker/Jones/Peterson anyway..dominate defensively? give me a break. when you guard way worse players, you don't get better at guarding more athletic, better players. an entire article? that was a nit-bit, with one coach saying he was a good defender. how do you have the right to say that bassy will never be as good as Ford. Telfair is known for his sky high potential. He has all the tools that Ford has. Rondo has a chance to be better than Ford, because he plays on both sides of the ball. He is much more heady than Ford, plays more under control, and plays lock-down defense. and why do you think he got a contract with maccabi? because he couldn't cut it in the nba!concerning delonte's minutes. No way in hell he splits time with Tony Allen. Delonte will get the majority of the minutes at the two. secondly, Wally is definitely NOT playing 37 mpg this year. Doc played him more than necessary last year because we were a little short-handed. This year, Wally should take it a little bit easier, especially coming off knee surgery. and like I said, the celtics will be playing a little smaller this year, so pierce/wally could see some time at the four, giving plenty more minutes to delonte at the two. Delonte will play <10 minutes at the point this year, I can almost guarantee that. "he's a damn good player".. thanks for helping me out. a guy that will basically be THIRD string at the 2 deserves minutes on just about any team in the league. He will play less minutes than last year due to so many guys in the frontcourt simply being better than him. I wouldn't doubt to see him get traded. there's just not enough room. and Rondo plays 10x better defense and plays more under control. TJ Ford got more turnovers in one game so far this year than Rondo has all year, and Rondo has played roughly 180 minutes compared to ford's 110. Ford has 16 turnovers compared to rondo's 6.What do you mean he wont make a positive impact? He rebounds, he's tough, gritty, he plays defense, he can score downlow. How is that not making an impact. Hell, his shot could even improve some. Delonte will be getting like 10 mpg at the 1 whether you want to face it or not.he's a mediocre rebounder at best in the pro's. He won't be able to score downlow very ofter because a.) he's simply not a very good interior scorer, b.) they'd rather have someone else on the blocks, and c.) do you think they're actually going to post up a 6'5 player more than once or twice a game? I don't think so. oh, and because he becomes a pro, he's all the sudden going to shoot better? give me a break.oh, I forgot that you have more inside information than the guy who is actually setting the rotations, doc rivers. doc said that delonte wouldn't play much at the one this year, simply put.What do you mean we havnt made the jump? We've come from a sh*tty team that sucked, to a viable playoff contender team. Want me to list what we've improved on? We've got a playmaker at pg finally, we have more than 1 SG finally, we will have more transition points, we will run, Bosh/Mo/all the others will get easier points/better perimeter defense/better post defense/alot more depth/And Bosh is one more year experienced. With all the things we've improved on, giving up freaking Mike James, and also Charlie is not neccesarily a bad thing, because we dont need them anymore."We've come from a sh*tty team that sucked, to a viable playoff contender team" what? how do you know that the raps are automatic playoff contenders this year? you'll get more transition points? I doubt it, the raps were already a good scoring/fastbreak team. even if you do gain a pg, if you lose two good scorers, you're not going to get that much better at scoring. and you want me to list what the celtics have improved on? they ALSO got a playmaking pg, and the celtics definitely mad ea bigger jump at the pg position this year than the raps did. The raps (arguably) second best player was the pg last season, the celtics had esentially a rookie pg that played sg in college. oh, and he didn't have a back-up. we now have 4 guys capable of playing the point, three of which would be successful there full-time. We got tougher inside, our young guys like Delonte, Gomes, Al, Perk, TA, Bassy, Green will improve. we gained some perimeter defense and a lot of quickness. how can you say you don't need them anymore? they were some of the best players on your team! I don't care if you gained talent, you lost some of your best, and that's always going to hurt. to say that you couldn't still use their service is just ridiculous.Mike only scored 20 ppg because he had the ball on every possession, and he took adantage of that, and started shooting alot more than he should have. He hadnt scored more than like 12 for his career before landing here? You wanna know why he improved so much? Because he can shoot, and he took advantage of his ability to shoot. So youre basically saying that because Mike James scored more points then alot of his teammates, he didnt have to share the ball? WTF? Every pg is supposed to distribute the ball. Thats how you get offensive chemistry, easier points, and more flow to the offense. What are you talking about? I can argue better chemistry because TJ Ford will give the guys on the court the ball, unlike Mike James. We will also be running, which creates alot of chemistry and offensive flow.you're avoiding the point. it's not like Mike James was just a chucker that hsot a horrible percentage. He shot a very good percentage for a pg. "he took advantage of his ability to shoot". and that's a bad thing how? but HE DID share the ball. he didn't get 6 apg for nothing. yeah, well I can argue that having 6 new guys from 4 different countries can hurt chemistry also. it works both ways. oh, and the raps didn't run last year? they ran plenty last year, why do you think they scored over 100 ppg?Because he will work on that in practice, and he will learn soon enough to stop fouling all the time. You said that PJ Tucker was not an NBA player. I was guessing you based that on the fact that he is not a perimeter player on offense, or else why else would you say that? you dont have to be a perimeter player to be effective in the NBA. PJ getting rebounds, flexing his muscles downlow, and scoring inside points will actually help us out, and help compliment the perimeter shooters on the squad. Oh please, with Tucker's strength he would destroy any wing in the NBA downlow. Do SF's usually get posted up inside, because I wasnt aware of that. When PJ gets the ball inside, one of the bigs will have to help out, creating a mismatch for Bosh.you don't just work on not fouling in practice. being in games is the only thing that works, as the officials call games differently. it will take a while for Bargnani to adjust. If you're 6'5 and have NO perimeter skills, you won't have success in this league, ESPECIALLY as a rookie. It's not like he's exceptionally strong or quick or nifty. I mean sure, he's strong, but he's not going to just have his way with anyone in the nba. if that were the case, then leon powe would be averaging a double-double. He's just a short post player, with no perimeter skills.He got 20 ppg, but thats because he took way more shots than he was supposed to, and our other guys suffered because of it because they never got the ball on alot of possessions. Okay, so since you base everything on scouting reports, here's a report I found."He's every coach's dream player. He fully understands the game, he's smart, a good passer, can play on the low post, hit the three-pointer, penetrate, play good defense, read the passing lanes extremely well, play a leadership role..."So it says he can play in the low post. Ha. It also says he plays good D, which is true. HE CAN DEFEND INSIDE. When Sow comes back he will be healthy. And he does make an impact. He's a beast on the rebounds, he blocks shots, and doesn't let anyone get easy access in the paint.how can you regulate that he shot more shots than he was supposed to? he shot a good percentage, who is to judge how much is too much. I could understand if he was shooting in the low 40's, but he wasn't. and I don't base "everything on scouting reports", stop twisting the truth. can I see a link please?Yeah, you're wings are better than ours, but our bigs, and our pg are clearly better than yours also, whereas Mo is better than Wally. TJ Ford IS a better player by alot. He is the better passer, quicker player, better scorer, and his passing is just on another level than Bassy. Ive been watching him in pre-season, and it's just inbeliavable the way he's been passing the ball. If his career high was last year, that obviously means that he hasnt hit his prime yet. I believe that he will flirt with 20 ppg because he is improving offensively, and because TJ Ford will give him great looks, and with our running style he should get alot of open three pointers. I'm guessing he'll get 18-20 ppg next year, which will be more than enough for our 2nd option next year. Ford will score around 15 points imo. He doesn't have Mo WIlliams barking up his tree, he will improve his offense in his 3rd NBA season, and he is one of the quickest players in the NBA. So 14-15 seems around right to me. I dont see Bassy scoring double figures next year with the logjam at pg.even if you're starting pg is better than our's, I'd say our overall pg situation is better. We have three different looks. We have guys that can push the ball, or play in the half court. Bassy absolutely excells in pick-and-rolls, Rondo and bassy are both above average passers, and delonte is a hell of a shooter. All three push the ball. Rondo and Delonte are tough as nails on both ends, and Telfair gives alot of effort. TJ Ford is an all-offense, NO defense type player, not to mention VERY turnover prone. I've been watching TJ since his texas days. he is not on another level as telfair. Telfair is just as quick, and a little better at defense. Telfair is probably a better shooter, but not quite the scorer or passer tj is. but that's not to say it's a landslide. mo pete hasn't hit his prime yet? yes he has! he's entering his 7th year. if he hasn't hit his prime yet, then there's a problem. Mo Williams barking up his tree? Marcus Williams barely played half the year last year, and due to their being almost NO back-up wings in milwaukee, Mo/Charlie Bell played the two quite often. if you don't see telfair scoring double figures because of a a logjam, then who's to say that whoever's taking his place won't score any? as long as someone is scoring at the pg spot, it doesn't make a difference.

 

Lol, did you bold the wrong post? Because this has nothing to do with what I posted, except for the 1.4 spg thing. 1.4 spg for a SG is a good figure. Not only that, but he is also blocking shots. He's averaging .8 bpg which is unheard of for a guard, especially a 6"2 player. He had 2 blocks the other day. He uses his athleticism to go up and swat the ball down.

What the hell? We weren't a running team last year? We were a half court team because of make James and his iso's. Next year with TJ we will be running alot, allowing easier points for Bosh. Mike James was a ball hog last year, and Bosh will had a tough time because he had to create for himself on iso's instead of just getting easy assisted buckets. BTW, 6 apg isnt even that great for a pg with the amount of minutes Mike James played. And apg doesn't even determine whether a player passed it alot or not.

I mentioned offensive big men, not post scorers. Youre twisting my words now. Well he only got 18 mpg last year. I think he;ll get like 20-25, so he should be able to score 6-7 ppg. And he did score 6 ppg two years ago.. Scalabrine or Olowokandi wont be playing in alot of the games, whereas Rasho is tarting, and should get 6-7 ppg. So there is a differnce. Kandi and Scabs are just trying to make the team. I dont know the Celtics situation, but our those two even going to make the 12 man? Once again, Im failing to understand why Sarunas relates to any of this since he and Garbajosa are totally different, but anyway...Sarunas was a decent backup. He scored like 7 ppg off the bench for the Pacers. Bosh will be getting 40 minutes a game, so why does it matter who backs him up? Sow isnt really garbage. He hustles, gets boards, blocks, plays D, puts all his effort in. Humphries is a good rebounder, and he can scoere some points inside, SLokar has a nice post up game, and can shoot. Combine those guys with Garbajosa, and our backup PF situation is nothing to be worried about at all. Maybe he hadnt turned into the player he is now until like 2-3 years ago. Players dont get drafted at age 27. Being drafted has nothing to do with how good a player he is. When did I say that Anthony Johnson was a proven starter? I never said that..I said he was a proven leader, and he did great in the playoffs for the Pacers, averaging 20 ppg! He was a good starter for them in the regular season also. It's nothing to be ashamed about. It's not like he got beat out by some scrub.

What? The stats for the last 5 minutes could be TOTALLY DIFFERENT then the stats in the last 20 seconds. And with my stats, I already showed that that is definately the case here. Again, he shot 14% in clutch situations. A ton of people can shoot better than freaking 30% on any shot. That's just terrible. Oh, and since you didnt reply to my stats that I showed you (because you were completely owned), I'll reiterate. Mike James always shot the ball in closing minutes, and he shot the worst drop off percentage in the League in those situations! So THAT is the reason why we were terrible in close/overtime games.

Yeah, okay. But the truth is that Bosh is capable of scoring inside points, so if big man shooters can stretch out defenders than it would make it alot easier for Bosh to thrive inside. Yeah, and if you're wondering, Garbajosa was nicknamed "The Porn Player" when he played in Europe because of how he "raped" defenders.

I said that he dominated defensively when he guarded Euro players, allowing him to improve on defense. You totally twisted my words there. Because both of them have only played 2 years, and Ford is leaps and bounds ahead of Bassy. Ford is only going to get better whereas Bassy will have to split time in the near future. Of course Ford will always be better than him in the near future. Rondo has the potential to be as good or better than Ford, but we're talking about now, and Rondo is only a rookie. Ford is clearly better than him at this point. He signed the contract a while ago man. That has nothing to do with how well he plays now. He wouldnt be starting voer Fred Jones if he was crap.Dude, Tony Allen will also get minutes, so Delonte will have to share time with Allen backing up Wally. How many minutes does that leave Delonte at the two? Like 7. That isnt enough for him. He'll get another 12 or so playing point guard. Wally is a 17 ppg scorer, he'll be playing atleast 35+ mpg. Why do TO's matter? Lebron got a ton of TO's last year. It doesn't translate into how good a player is. That just means that TJ was trying to make plays. Are you actually trying to make a case that Rondo is already better than TJ? Oh my lord..

 

man, I would have liked to get the last word, but it's 9:01. congrats on the debate. I'm fairly confident that I won. but just to explain, I was using that analogy for parker guarding euro players. and fred jones has maintained .8 bspg for what, 6 games? Delonte did that for 70+ games in the regular season, in essentially his rookie season, as a pg. so it's not 'unheard of'."(because you were completely owned)". omg, how immature.