Come on now Nitro, seriously who CAN stop Kobe? Nobody. When hes having a bad day it's usually because hes off. Ray Allen is also probably the best shooter in the NBA, it's not like he was guarding some scrub.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>They also say he's a good defender but people don't want to give him credit for that, just for the times he does something dirty. But the NBA is full of dirty players, full of druggies, rapists, a few murderers sprinkled in there. Raja gets too much hate when very few NBA players are model citizens and many other players play dirty at one point in time.</div>first of all, we're talking dirty players, not people. this is referring to their actions on the court. the league is full of rapists? oh please, kobe wasn't even convicted. That girl was a complete slut anyways. Ruben Patterson's was completely statutory, it was only because the girl was one year underaged. That's not real rape. a few murderers? WHO?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ Oct 21 2006, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>first of all, we're talking dirty players, not people. this is referring to their actions on the court. the league is full of rapists? oh please, kobe wasn't even convicted. That girl was a complete slut anyways. Ruben Patterson's was completely statutory, it was only because the girl was one year underaged. That's not real rape. a few murderers? WHO?</div>Well athletes murderers and usually when they retire. Not exactly NBA players, but many with weapons. If you want to believe Kobe and Kwame go ahead. Wouldn't be the first time an athlete got away with something because of who he is. And didn't Kobe talk about Shaq paying women, uh... "hush money" or whatever to not get in trouble with his wife and the media? But like I said, the are plenty of dirty players in the NBA and many, many flagrant fouls. It was probably the description sounding worse than what really happened. OMG, Walton threw TT down and he was going for a dunk, he was trying to hurt him, what a dirty player!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 21 2006, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To people who say being a dirty player isn't a bad thing, you are right. But when you don't have top notch defensive ability to back it up, you're just a little pussy. Raja doesn't have the defensive ability of a Artest or Bruce Bowen, he just plays dirty and still gets burned.</div>Bruce Bowen is a good defender because he's the dirtiest player in the league. Sure he is a soid defender, but more of it is grabbing, nipping and downright holding like a pussy
being a dirty player can't be justified just by having good defense. I think it's stupid all the time, but you're right nitro, it makes them seem more like a punk than a dirty but good defender.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supreme BALLA @ Oct 22 2006, 03:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm tired of this crap with Raja. Someone needs to teach this guy a lesson. He's getting babied man. He levels Miller and is only assessed a flagrant. That's dirty. He clotheslined Kobe last year...I agree with Artest's opinion here. He would also destroy the guy. I'm tired of his arrogant, bad tempered, dirty style of play.</div><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 22 2006, 04:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Artest would fu*king destroy him.I hate Raja, he's a dirty player and overrated on defense.</div><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinoy Balla @ Oct 22 2006, 04:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>:rock: :rock: Artest beat the sh*t out of him. He's a fag he is just a dirty player thats a bi*ch.</div>Nuff said
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well athletes murderers and usually when they retire. Not exactly NBA players, but many with weapons. If you want to believe Kobe and Kwame go ahead. Wouldn't be the first time an athlete got away with something because of who he is. And didn't Kobe talk about Shaq paying women, uh... "hush money" or whatever to not get in trouble with his wife and the media? But like I said, the are plenty of dirty players in the NBA and many, many flagrant fouls. It was probably the description sounding worse than what really happened. OMG, Walton threw TT down and he was going for a dunk, he was trying to hurt him, what a dirty player!</div>oh, you're right, retired nba players usually become murderers. That's horrible logic. name me one former nba player that is a murderer. ONE! you can't. don't bring other sports into this, because you were comlpaining about people thinking Raja was one of the dirtiest players in BASKETBALL, not all sports. And you're just avoiding the point by talking about players' off the court behaviors. just because a player cheats on his wife doens't make him a dirty PLAYER. we're talking ON THE COURT.
And I already said, most good defenders play dirty. I do think that clothesline was uncalled for but this was just a normal flagrant. During any hard foul, even if it's not serious, the teammates sometimes get mad and come up and defend their teammate who got fouled. I just don't think this is a big deal and Raja is getting too much hate when he does just was most good defenders do. There's always a little pushing and pulling by a defender to annoy the offensive players. Raja lost control against Kobe and that's it. Artest really shouldn't be saying anything since he's done worse in his career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Oct 21 2006, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe Kobe and Ray were hot those days? Opposing points against a player is a really bad way to determine a player's defensive ability. Ive seen him, and he is a good defender.</div>Ray had 38PPG for the season, and Kobe was over 40PPG for season too. Then in playoffs Kobe dropped 50 in him.Yes, he's a good defender, but way overrated due to the reputation that he is so physical and dirty.
So he's overrated because he has a reputation of being dirty? That doesen't make sense. He isn't overrated at all. Anybody who has watched him, and doesen't hate him, anybody who has worked for him and played against him knows how good he is on D. He is a very good defensive player. He didn't make any all-defensive teams so I don't think he's overrated at all. If he did then you probably could make a case for it but you are just being dumb.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 05:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Artest really shouldn't be saying anything since he's done worse in his career.</div>He is merely saying that he is angry. He is actually showing some loyalty to Miller, I give him respect for that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So he's overrated because he has a reputation of being dirty? That doesen't make sense. He isn't overrated at all. Anybody who has watched him, and doesen't hate him, anybody who has worked for him and played against him knows how good he is on D. He is a very good defensive player. He didn't make any all-defensive teams so I don't think he's overrated at all. If he did then you probably could make a case for it but you are just being dumb.</div>^Since a new page came up.Hey I understand, I really like Artest and I don't mind him getting mad or getting in the face of Raja during the game. But really, Ron Artest talking about players being dirty?
Funny how people complain about Bell being a dirty player but defending the dirtiest player in the league. Ron Artest. I got no problems with Bell. He plays hard for his team and is willing to do whatever he can to win. Ron Artest needs to stop worrying about Bell and go make another rap album
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So he's overrated because he has a reputation of being dirty? That doesen't make sense. He isn't overrated at all. Anybody who has watched him, and doesen't hate him, anybody who has worked for him and played against him knows how good he is on D. He is a very good defensive player. He didn't make any all-defensive teams so I don't think he's overrated at all. If he did then you probably could make a case for it but you are just being dumb.</div>Yes, when people hear he is dirty as a defensive player, people and corperations like ESPN overrate the hell out of him. He is a GODD defensive player, that's IT. You can't have Kobe drop 40PPG on you in season then 50 on you in playoffs and call yourself a great defensive player. He uses his dirty play to be a great defender, not vice versa. Artest, while a dirty player for sure, is also a top 5 defender to begin with. Very physical, very athletic, a big body, and can get in your head much better than Raja can. He also has quick hands to help him grab 2SPG+. Raja doesn't have all defensive team ability to back up him roughing up player with dirty little tricks, while Artest does. To me that just makes Raja a pussy.
Raja is a good defender as well. I believe Artest let Kobe have a big game last year as well. Both are solid defenders. Artest is slightly better but it's not like Raja can't shut down anyone. Raja is also a good offensive player. He knows his limitations and takes good 3 point shots and shoots a high percentage.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 21 2006, 07:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, when people hear he is dirty as a defensive player, people and corperations like ESPN overrate the hell out of him. He is a GODD defensive player, that's IT. You can't have Kobe drop 40PPG on you in season then 50 on you in playoffs and call yourself a great defensive player. He uses his dirty play to be a great defender, not vice versa. Artest, while a dirty player for sure, is also a top 5 defender to begin with. Very physical, very athletic, a big body, and can get in your head much better than Raja can. He also has quick hands to help him grab 2SPG+. Raja doesn't have all defensive team ability to back up him roughing up player with dirty little tricks, while Artest does. To me that just makes Raja a pussy.</div>Come on man. That was one game in the playoffs. Kobe averaged 35 for the year, and IN THE PLAYOFFS, you dont expect Kobe to get 50 atleast once? Once again, that is a poor way to determine defense. Raja is a good defender.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 21 2006, 03:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, when people hear he is dirty as a defensive player, people and corperations like ESPN overrate the hell out of him. He is a GODD defensive player, that's IT. You can't have Kobe drop 40PPG on you in season then 50 on you in playoffs and call yourself a great defensive player. He uses his dirty play to be a great defender, not vice versa. Artest, while a dirty player for sure, is also a top 5 defender to begin with. Very physical, very athletic, a big body, and can get in your head much better than Raja can. He also has quick hands to help him grab 2SPG+. Raja doesn't have all defensive team ability to back up him roughing up player with dirty little tricks, while Artest does. To me that just makes Raja a pussy.</div>You still aren't giving any good reasons. Kobe averaged 35 points, that means that in half his game he got more than 35. Nobody can stop Kobe. Your talking about steals but you can't judge defense on stats too much. You look at Bowen and his stats aren't that impressive but he's the best there is. Raja gets into people's heads as much as everyone. Anyone he went up against got pissed off at him, got technicals and in many games they started messing up because they wanted to do too much. He does that just as good as any defensive player in the league. And when he's on a guy he always has a hand in the face of the offensive player while they are shooting but guys like Kobe can't be stopped like that. Raja has plenty of defensive ability. No one has ever said he's better than Artest but he's not that far behind. He's a very good defensive player. You really don't know what your talking about on this subject. If you don't want to take my word for it take mavsfan's. He saw him plenty of times because our teams met up 10 times.
quote - "The decking of Miller left teammate Ron Artest still sneering later in the dressing room, having to carefully choose his words."He's a good defender, a good player," Artest said of Bell, "but he does that dirty stuff sometimes. When he does stuff like that, I want to fight him. I can't do that, of course, but it makes me want to meet him off the floor for a nice little fight." - quoteWhat a hypocrrite. Ron Artest may be one of the dirtiest players in the league. He has no buisness talking like that about Bell.Furthermore, Artest does not want to fight Bell. If he did he would have done so by now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You still aren't giving any good reasons. Kobe averaged 35 points, that means that in half his game he got more than 35. Nobody can stop Kobe. Your talking about steals but you can't judge defense on stats too much. You look at Bowen and his stats aren't that impressive but he's the best there is. Raja gets into people's heads as much as everyone. Anyone he went up against got pissed off at him, got technicals and in many games they started messing up because they wanted to do too much. He does that just as good as any defensive player in the league. And when he's on a guy he always has a hand in the face of the offensive player while they are shooting but guys like Kobe can't be stopped like that. Raja has plenty of defensive ability. No one has ever said he's better than Artest but he's not that far behind. He's a very good defensive player. You really don't know what your talking about on this subject. If you don't want to take my word for it take mavsfan's. He saw him plenty of times because our teams met up 10 times.</div>That is not true, you don't have to put up more than your season average in half of your games. I believe Suns were only team he put up over 40PPG against (which is saying a lot since they play each other 3-4x a year). I'm sorry, but you aren't a great defender if you let someone drop over 40PPG on you in season, then over 50 in playoffs. Of course people will get pissed if you clothesline/deck them.I never judged Artest's defensive ability by his SPG, I just said he has quick hands which allows him to get those 2SPG. Raja doesn't even get 1SPG.Artest is arguably the best defensive player in league. He doesn't use tricks to hurt people like Bowen putting leg under shooters or what Raja does, rather he uses simple tricks to rough up a player just enough. He is far bigger than Raja and athletic enough that he can stop a player like LeBron (don't believe me? Check the stats). Kobe did play pretty well against Ron this year, but he still held Kobe under his season average in PPG, and at same time dropping 21PPG on Kobe (while against Kobe that isn't a big deal as Kobe has amazing stamina and can play both ends, but against players who don't have that stamina and aren't great defensive players it forces them to play both sides of ball and to exert more energy, which causes offensive production to be lower).
Put Artest on the suns instead of Bell and he would give up some points as well. Everyones stats get inflated when they play the suns based on the tempo of the game and all the fastbreak points. Bell makes the suns a decent defensive team.
