1. He clotheslined once. He uses all the tricks any good defensive player does on his opponent.2. He did average a steal per game like Bowen.Average is every game he had put together so he would've had to have many games over 35 to reach that. Just by reading your posts I can see that you really don't know anything about Raja. He is a very good defensive player. Why can't you just understand that. EVERYONE who has watched him knows that he is not overrated. Against Raja:May 2, Kobe scored 6 points under his season average.May 6, Kobe scored 11 points under his season average.Sep 30, Kobe scored 11 points under his season average.Sep 28, Kobe scored 18 points under his season average.Sep 26, Kobe scored 6 points under his season average.Sep 24, Kobe scored 13 under his season average.I didn't see the FG% but I know on a couple of the games he shot 33% and in that last game he just dissapeared at the end. Just because Kobe had a couple good games doesen't mean that Raja is overrated. Kobe could embarrass any defensive player especially if you give him 10 games to do it against you.Jan. 20, Kobe scored 2 points over his season average but shot only 34 or 35%. Took 33 shots, 9 points were from free throws.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Oct 21 2006, 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Put Artest on the suns instead of Bell and he would give up some points as well. Everyones stats get inflated when they play the suns based on the tempo of the game and all the fastbreak points. Bell makes the suns a decent defensive team.</div>Right on! The pace of the game also something to do with it. The opposing team gets about 8 or 10 more possesions a game. On the Lakers that's about 5-7 more for Kobe. A chance for a bunch of points.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Oct 21 2006, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Put Artest on the suns instead of Bell and he would give up some points as well. Everyones stats get inflated when they play the suns based on the tempo of the game and all the fastbreak points. Bell makes the suns a decent defensive team.</div>Artest went on a team that was weak defensively, was losing, and was searching for an identity. Artest came in and totally changed the identity of the team, sparking them to be a defensive minded team and being a tough team. Yes, he probably would have let up a few more points to Kobe if he was on the Suns, but Artest would never allow over 40PPG in season and 50 in a playoff game.Makes them a decent defensive team? The season before the Suns let up less than 1PPG more than this past season, and let opponents do it on 45% compared to 44% shooting in 2004-2005.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1. He clotheslined once. He uses all the tricks any good defensive player does on his opponent.2. He did average a steal per game like Bowen.Average is every game he had put together so he would've had to have many games over 35 to reach that. Just by reading your posts I can see that you really don't know anything about Raja. He is a very good defensive player. Why can't you just understand that. EVERYONE who has watched him knows that he is not overrated. Against Raja:May 2, Kobe scored 6 points under his season average.May 6, Kobe scored 11 points under his season average.Sep 30, Kobe scored 11 points under his season average.Sep 28, Kobe scored 18 points under his season average.Sep 26, Kobe scored 6 points under his season average.Sep 24, Kobe scored 13 under his season average.I didn't see the FG% but I know on a couple of the games he shot 33% and in that last game he just dissapeared at the end. Just because Kobe had a couple good games doesen't mean that Raja is overrated. Kobe could embarrass any defensive player especially if you give him 10 games to do it against you.Jan. 20, Kobe scored 2 points over his season average but shot only 34 or 35%. Took 33 shots, 9 points were from free throws.</div>I am not calling Raja an average defender, he is a GOOD defender...he is NOT great. A lot of the reason why he is a good defender because he plays dirty and uses a lot of those little tricks, while Artest has much more defensive skill. Faster hands, more athletic, much bigger body which allows him to guard players like Pierce (check out the 2004 playoff stats, he raped Pierce) and Bron (held him to like 20PPG this season on poor %). Again, you don't have to get more than 35PPG in half of your games played. Of course he had many games where he went over 35, but only one team he put up over 40PPG against for season. Raja is a good defender, but his defense is overrated because of his dirty style of play. He is NOT a great defender, and is definately NOT a better defender than Artest in any aspect.As for playoffs, he passed it a l,ot more because it was working. He shot 50% for the series, and his teammates were showing up. The game they didn't show up? 50 points.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 21 2006, 04:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ray had 38PPG for the season, and Kobe was over 40PPG for season too. Then in playoffs Kobe dropped 50 in him.</div>Kobe didn't pass 30 against Bell in the playoffs. The game where he went for 50 was game 6 which Bell didn't play.Game 1: 22 Game 2: 29 Game 3: 17 Game 4: 24Game 5: 29Game 7: 24
I also remember Bell doing a good job on Terry and when he guarded Howard. Bell is by far Phoenix's best defender and one of the elite defenders in the league. He falls in the category of Artest, Bowen, and Kirilenko. He should've been on the US Team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diawsome @ Oct 21 2006, 07:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe didn't pass 30 against Bell in the playoffs. The game where he went for 50 was game 6 which Bell didn't play.Game 1: 22 Game 2: 29 Game 3: 17 Game 4: 24Game 5: 29Game 7: 24</div>Damn, I forgot about the suspension. But still, in the games Raja did play Kobe scored his points on 49% shooting. Judging by what he did in season I am positive he could have done same if need be.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Oct 21 2006, 07:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I also remember Bell doing a good job on Terry and when he guarded Howard. Bell is by far Phoenix's best defender and one of the elite defenders in the league. He falls in the category of Artest, Bowen, and Kirilenko. He should've been on the US Team.</div>Wrong, Marion is a better defender than Bell.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diawsome @ Oct 21 2006, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe didn't pass 30 against Bell in the playoffs. The game where he went for 50 was game 6 which Bell didn't play.Game 1: 22 Game 2: 29 Game 3: 17 Game 4: 24Game 5: 29Game 7: 24</div>Yeah I just figured that out when I was in the shower. :happy0144: Nice find.AND GUESS WHAT? In the regular season game when Kobe got 43, Raja didn't even play!Bell is our best man-2-man defender. Not by far our best defensive player because of the steals, blocks and versatility Marion brings, but man-2-man I trust Bell more.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 21 2006, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wrong, Marion is a better defender than Bell.</div>Marion got abused by Odom and Josh Howard in the playoffs. I wasn't that impressed with his defense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah I just figured that out when I was in the shower. :happy0144: Nice find.AND GUESS WHAT? In the regular season game when Kobe got 43, Raja didn't even play!</div>He still put up 42PPG on 48% shooting against Raja in season.
Raja still did pretty well on Kobe especially since no one does good against Kobe. So in 9 tries Kobe had 1 great game against him. That is soooo terrible considering Kobe is such a scrub... you are really underrating Raja. No one has said he's better than Bowen or Artest, and he didn't get into the all-defensive team but he is a very good defender. There is no reason to call him overrated. The Suns know how important he is to the team and all the hate just makes him work harder so whatever...If anything he's underrated because if he does anything good it's either, oh Kobe just had an off-night, or Kobe passed it(even though against the Suns you get more possesions so he still took plenty of shots) or if it's against someone else it's unnoticed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Raja still did pretty well on Kobe especially since no one does good against Kobe. So in 9 tries Kobe had 1 great game against him. That is soooo terrible considering Kobe is such a scrub... you are really underrating Raja. No one has said he's better than Bowen or Artest, and he didn't get into the all-defensive team but he is a very good defender. There is no reason to call him overrated. The Suns know how important he is to the team and all the hate just makes him work harder so whatever...</div>He took 9 less FGA's per game in playoffs, outsid eof his game where he went for 50+. He shot 49% against Raja in playoffs and 48% in season. They went 3-3 in those games against Raja...what does that tell you? He was more of a playmaker to the teammates that actually showed up in much slowed down games compared to the games between the 2 teams in season. There is no question to me Kobe could have went for 40PPG+ in playoffs against Raja if it meant better for team.Bottom line is Raja is not a great defender, and his defensive ability is very overrated because he gets into people's heads by playing dirty. To me that doesn't make a great defender, and when he goes out and deliberately tries to hurt people it just rubs me the wrong way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 21 2006, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He took 9 less FGA's per game in playoffs, outsid eof his game where he went for 50+. He shot 49% against Raja in playoffs and 48% in season. They went 3-3 in those games against Raja...what does that tell you? He was more of a playmaker to the teammates that actually showed up in much slowed down games compared to the games between the 2 teams in season. There is no question to me Kobe could have went for 40PPG+ in playoffs against Raja if it meant better for team.Bottom line is Raja is not a great defender, and his defensive ability is very overrated because he gets into people's heads by playing dirty. To me that doesn't make a great defender, and when he goes out and deliberately tries to hurt people it just rubs me the wrong way.</div>Maybe some of that had to do with the fact that Raja gave him less open shots than average defenders would, so he didnt shoot it as much, and elected to pass it.Considering the league standard for defense today, I'd say Raja is, or is close to being a great defender. LOL, ever since he had that flagrant on Kobe, everyone says that he deliberately tries to hurt people. That was once.
Kobe could also go on a cold streak and hurt his team by continue to fire. Taking 30+ shots it will really help your team or really hurt your team. Kobe looks good when he is making but if he does that and starts missing than the suns would embarrass the lakers. It's not smart of Kobe to chuck against a good defender like Bell. Odom was too busy having his way with Marion that is was a better matchup for the lakers than Kobe against Bell.
He did it once because of the many elbows he got in the face. Whether or not it made contact on that last elbow you could see Kobe go back and try to hurt him so why is that any different? Kobe also got Barbosa with an elbow in the next game. He tried to hurt players more than Raja did there. My point is that no one can stop Kobe but Raja did a pretty damn good job, he always contested all his shots and Kobe had some bad shooting games against him going 33% a few times. Kobe would have scored 40 if he wanted to on anyone so just because he had some good games against Raja doesen't make Raja overrated. This isn't a Kobe-Raja debate. Raja did a good job against everyone he played against. Very rarely did he get burned in a game. I don't call Raja a great defender. I only call a few players great defenders. But he is a very good defender and not all that far away from the great defenders in the league. Bowen and Artest.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Oct 21 2006, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe some of that had to do with the fact that Raja gave him less open shots than average defenders would, so he didnt shoot it as much, and elected to pass it.Considering the league standard for defense today, I'd say Raja is, or is close to being a great defender. LOL, ever since he had that flagrant on Kobe, everyone says that he deliberately tries to hurt people. That was once.</div>Kobe went for 42PPG on 48% shooting against Raja in season. Suns won all 3 of those games, averaging 112PPG. In the playoffs, Suns averaged 107PPG...INCLUDING gmae 6 in which they went for over 120 points, so I'm being generous there. LA slowed the game down in playoffs, and Kobe's teammates came alive. When I think great defenders, I think of the elite....Kobe, Kidd, Artest, Kirileinko, etc... I don't put Raja in that category.
Kobe embarrassed the mavs team more than the suns team and I thought the mavs had decent defenders to guard him with. Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, and etc. When Kobe is on it almost doesn't matter how well you guard him. He makes them anyway. Kidd got embarrassed by Wade as usual so I think Kidd's lack of speed these days hurts against Wade. Your bias against Bell is showing.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Oct 21 2006, 08:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe embarrassed the mavs team more than the suns team and I thought the mavs had decent defenders to guard him with. Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, and etc. When Kobe is on it almost doesn't matter how well you guard him. He makes them anyway. Kidd got embarrassed by Wade as usual so I think Kidd's lack of speed these days hurts against Wade. Your bias against Bell is showing.</div>Kobe also had a 5-22 game against the Mavs, and none of their defenders are very good (definately not good enough to stop Kobe). Kidd got embaressed by Wade? He was held under average in season with 24PPG, and in one game shot 4-20. In playoffs he was held right at average. And you forget Kidd also held Nash to a 0 point game, held Paul under average, Billups to a 9 point game, etc...
Oi...you are really going to make me do some research. Now I have to go look through all the Suns games and prove to you how good Raja is.
Don't bother, I know Raja is a good defender, but he is not great like Artest is. His dirty tricks and such are what make him as good as he is, rather that Artest who is already a great defender. That, and the fact that he has tried to deliberately hurt people rub me the wrong way.
He did it one time. One time. The rest are little tricks like Artest does. Kobe threw more elbows in one series than Bell has tried to really hurt people his whole career... I think he does have plenty of talent. He plays very good D, rarely giving up open shots. The flopping and pulling are just an added bonus. I never said he is as good as Artest. I love Artest. I just think Raja is very good. He's not that far from the elite. What matters is how the other player does against him. If Raja drives other players crazy and that's the reason they don't do as well then I still consider him a good defensive player. He's a smart player, he can get steals, he can bother players to take them out of their game and contests their shots. That's why I think he's so good.
