OK, he rarely gives up open shots....what else does he do! Artest is way more versatile, is more athletic, far stronger, faster hands, is always up in people's faces, etc... Not to mention that he gets into other player's head slike few others, and is a much more dominating and intimidating figure. Again, Raja is a good defender, but outside of his little tricks doesn't do anything else very well. Artest does almost everything very well. Raja wouldn't even be mentioned near the elite without his dirty tricks, while Artest would still be arguably the best perimeter defender in league.
I never said he was as good as Artest though. I just think he deserves a lot more credit for what he does than your giving him. Overall he is really not too far behind. You may not like the dirty tricks but every good defender does it. It doesent matter if it gives him his edge, he still does very well. He cant guard a wide variety of player like players like Marion but he does a very good job on shooting guards. Even without the tricks he does whatever he needs to do to stop them from scoring. Contesting shots and stealing the ball and just making it tough to score is what makes him a good defender but his pulling and annoying is what makes him very good. It's still part of the defense and he is one of the better defensive sgsdamn melo is here and I cant stay on long
Kobe did hit raja bell but it was very soft. Raja flopped. I'm not going to go into why raja bell is an overrated defender but here is a little gemhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK636N2qV6M :rock:
I gotta say, that was hilarious! He was caught preparing to flop I think, otherwise he woulda just fell. that was funny even though I really like himbut raja didn't flop really he had to get out of the way or he wouldve had a roken bone in his faceHey Nitro, you do know that neither of us thinks he's great but are arguing the difference between good and very good now right? Seems kinds pointless now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 09:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I never said he was as good as Artest though. I just think he deserves a lot more credit for what he does than your giving him. Overall he is really not too far behind. You may not like the dirty tricks but every good defender does it. It doesent matter if it gives him his edge, he still does very well. He cant guard a wide variety of player like players like Marion but he does a very good job on shooting guards. Even without the tricks he does whatever he needs to do to stop them from scoring. Contesting shots and stealing the ball and just making it tough to score is what makes him a good defender but his pulling and annoying is what makes him very good. It's still part of the defense and he is one of the better defensive sgsdamn melo is here and I cant stay on long</div>Again, I said he's good, but not elite. His dirty tricks make him a good defender, otherwise all he'd do is just get a hand in someone's face. He doesn't even get 1SPG, so I don't see why you say he steals the ball. Artest is far more versatile, more athletic, more physical, does his dirty tricks as well, and is a bigger body that is more intimidating. It isn't even close.Yes, he is one of the better defensive SG's, but I still don't consider him a great defender or a top 10 defender in the league.
He did average 1.0 steals per game. Well, if you count all positions then I don't consider him top 10 either...and no one else is so I don't see were you think he is overrated. Just as a SG I think he's one of the best and I'm comfortable with him guarding any of the other teams guards. He did a very good job last season.And what else are you supposed to do on D than get in another person's face and make every shot a tough one?Oh and on the original topic Artest would kill Raja. He beats him in size, craziness and ghettoness, it wouldn't be close. In a fight with Kobe I could see Raja winning that one. It doesen't matter who's the better player. Raja won't back down from him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 10:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He did average 1.0 steals per game. Well, if you count all positions then I don't consider him top 10 either...and no one else is so I don't see were you think he is overrated. Just as a SG I think he's one of the best and I'm comfortable with him guarding any of the other teams guards. He did a very good job last season.And what else are you supposed to do on D than get in another person's face and make every shot a tough one?</div>When I hear great, I think of top 10-15 defenders in league. he is not in that group. He is a solid, good defender, that's it.http://youtube.com/watch?v=T6n6POS9AIMI'm sorry, but I see him leaving Kobe open quite a few times in that video, not contesting every jumper, trying to flop as Kobe run around him for dunk, etc... His defense is nothing great, he doesn't get many steals or blocks, and doesn't totally ignite his team with his D like a great defensive player like Artest does. He is not intimidating 'nor dominating.
How on earth do we know who would win in a fight? For all we know Raja might be taking boxing classes and would knock Artest out.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Oct 21 2006, 07:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How on earth do we know who would win in a fight? For all we know Raja might be taking boxing classes and would knock Artest out.</div>Just replying to the Lakers fans who said. OMG, Kobe don't care, he would knock dat guy out. I wasn't being serious.Nitro, you are making stuff up. Who has EVER said he is a top 10 defensive player? He's just very good and you can see that if you watched his games not just judging by his average performances against the best offensive player in the league and a youtube video with highlights compiled by a Laker fan. You make it sound like he's a terrible defender when he was actually very good this year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nitro, you are making stuff up. Who has EVER said he is a top 10 defensive player? He's just very good and you can see that if you watched his games not just judging by his average performances against the best offensive player in the league and a youtube video with highlights compiled by a Laker fan. You make it sound like he's a terrible defender when he was actually very good this year.</div>I told you before, when I think great defender I think top 10-15 defenders in league, I do not put him in that bunch. Then when people say he is close to Artest it sickens me. I watch a ton of Suns games, I look at the stats, watch video...he is a solid defender! That's it! Outside of his dirty tricks he is average/good, doesn't get many defensive stats and isn't a great help defender or lockdown defender. I keep saying....over and over and over and over and over....that he's a GOOD defender! I don't get why you say I make him seem like a bad defender. But he doesn't make half the impact Artest does defensively.
The way you talk about him makes it seem like that. And you say he's overrated when no one has rated him that highly in the first place and when he does good no one notices or gives him credit for it. Artest is a top 5 defender in the league. I think Raja is top 20 at least, but one of the best defenders at shooting guard. That's what it is but I just wish he'd get more credit. Everyone who has had him on their team, or played against him knows how good he is so I'll just leave it at that. I don't think he'll care once he gets his championship ring. o_- <--that's a wink btw. It doesen't matter if he uses tricks, he does it smartly and it gets us results.I just think your argument is a bit weak since most of Bowen's defense is dirty tactics. He does it more than anyone. He also doesen't get many steals and rarely gets a block.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The way you talk about him makes it seem like that. And you say he's overrated when no one has rated him that highly in the first place and when he does good no one notices or gives him credit for it. Artest is a top 5 defender in the league. I think Raja is top 20 at least, but one of the best defenders at shooting guard. That's what it is but I just wish he'd get more credit. Everyone who has had him on their team, or played against him knows how good he is so I'll just leave it at that. I don't think he'll care once he gets his championship ring. o_- <--that's a wink btw. It doesen't matter if he uses tricks, he does it smartly and it gets us results.I just think your argument is a bit weak since most of Bowen's defense is dirty tactics. He does it more than anyone. He also doesen't get many steals and rarely gets a block.</div>People in this thread have said he is just below Artest. Fu*king mavsfan just ranked him 3 or 4 in league. People say he is great when I don't think so. His tricks don't back up a great defensive game like Artest.Bowen is also a very smart defender and is only defender to actually get into Kobe's head (among other player's heads). He is always in your face, and is just an overall great defender outside of his dirty tactics. For the record I feel Artest is a better defender than Bowen.
1. Ben Wallace2. Bowen3. Artest4. Bell? Who is better at 4? I can't think of any names of great defenders except maybe Kirilenko.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 21 2006, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>People in this thread have said he is just below Artest. Fu*king mavsfan just ranked him 3 or 4 in league. People say he is great when I don't think so. His tricks don't back up a great defensive game like Artest.Bowen is also a very smart defender and is only defender to actually get into Kobe's head (among other player's heads). He is always in your face, and is just an overall great defender outside of his dirty tactics. For the record I feel Artest is a better defender than Bowen.</div>Has Bowen ever shut him down or anything? What do you mean getting into his head? Raja is also a smart defender and always in your face, unless you literally mean in you face which is where Bowen's foot went. I also think Artest is better than Bowen. Bell isn't as good as either but he isn't as far behind as you say. I don't think Artest and Bowen are in a whole other class than Bell which you make it seem like. He plays good defense along with his tricks. Mavsfan put him at #4 because he has seem him play a lot besides the games against the best offensive player in the league. Everyone that has seen him play a lot knows how good he is. You keep talking about Kobe but when Kobe wants he can torch any defensive player in the league, but Bell has done very well against others.
Raja is not on the level where Artest and Bowen is but I agree with ASU regarding all good defenders using dirty tricks...........elite defenders uses all kinds of tricks to slow down a player now it's up to the refs whether they see it or not but that's the nature of the game. A good offensive player will always beat a good defensive player when he is on.Do I have a problem with Raja playing dirty, NO.......... but what gets me is that if he is willing to give then he should be willing to receive. Him getting elbowed doesn't give him an excuse for what he did to KOBE.If u watch the battles between Malone/Rodman both of them give cheap shots to each other, those are the 2 dirtiest players that played the game and that what makes them a great defender.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Oct 21 2006, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Raja is not on the level where Artest and Bowen is but I agree with ASU regarding all good defenders using dirty tricks...........elite defenders uses all kinds of tricks to slow down a player now it's up to the refs whether they see it or not but that's the nature of the game. A good offensive player will always beat a good defensive player when he is on , do I have a problem with Raja playing dirty, NO.......... but what gets me is that if he is willing to give then he should be willing to receive. Him getting elbowed doesn't give him an excuse for what he did.If u watch the battles between Malone/Rodman both of them give cheap shots to one another, those are the 2 dirtiest players that played the game and that what makes them a great defender.</div>Oh my gosh, remember the boxing match between Malone and Rodman? that was awesome. Maybe Kobe and Raja can do the same.
Man what I see out of this thread is you guys arguing about the exact same thing, using the exact same arguements in different meanings and going on in non-sense.End it.Who can stop Kobe at the SG position? THE SG POSITION. Raja was playing tight defense there and Kobe was making unrealistic shots. Bell did have some weak moments in that video, but that's beyond the point.Bowen-ArtestBowen>BellArtest>BellArtest(defense)>Kobe (IMO when he is in for the whole season and playing healthy..)Kobe>BellBell<KobeBell> Zhi Zhi Wang.THERE, it's settled.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 11:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh my gosh, remember the boxing match between Malone and Rodman? that was awesome. Maybe Kobe and Raja can do the same.</div>It's not fair KOBE is a basketball player while Raja is an octagon figher...........llol, j/k :winkglasses:
