lol, well I know I really enjoyed that fight even though Malone got beat pretty bad from what I remember. I remember that, I was in Iran on vacation and I missed the Finals between the Bulls and Jazz so it was great to see.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Oct 21 2006, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Too much hate on Raja.He plays dirty, yeah. All players 20 years ago played the same way. Atleast he is a player who is out there giving his all on defense. Artest needs to keep his comments to himself.</div>how can you say that? When you closeline a person, and then do this, in a span of what....15 games, he deserves to be considered a very dirty player. Think about it. I didnt see what happenned to Miller, but it was obviously bad enough to make Miller want to fight him, and to get Artest to say that. And that is not true what so ever that all players played like that. There were some players that played like that and guess what.....they were considered dirty players. Sure, it would have been the smart thing to do to keep it to himself, but none of it would have ever happenned if he wasnt provoked to do so.
How many flagrant fouls happen every year? I think people are overreacting to this. I know he does some "dirty" things but who doesen't? I agree he is a dirty player and that clothesline was not right to do but this was just an everyday..er everyweek flagrant foul. It happens. I doubt it was really bad but usually during flagrant fouls players gather around and exchange words, like when Walton threw TT down. I don't think he meant to hurt him or anything but when you are playing tough D it happens(talking about Walton).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 21 2006, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Has Bowen ever shut him down or anything? What do you mean getting into his head? Raja is also a smart defender and always in your face, unless you literally mean in you face which is where Bowen's foot went. I also think Artest is better than Bowen. Bell isn't as good as either but he isn't as far behind as you say. I don't think Artest and Bowen are in a whole other class than Bell which you make it seem like. He plays good defense along with his tricks. Mavsfan put him at #4 because he has seem him play a lot besides the games against the best offensive player in the league. Everyone that has seen him play a lot knows how good he is. You keep talking about Kobe but when Kobe wants he can torch any defensive player in the league, but Bell has done very well against others.</div>Ask ANY Lakers fan, every one of them will tell you Bruce has always been Kobe's best defender. Hell, this past year Bowen held him to 30PPG on 38% shooting.Bell is a GOOD defender. That's IT. He gets his hand in your face, but that's it. He is not athletic enough to stop a great driving player like a Chauncey Billups or Dwade, and not strong enough to contain a Paul Pierce. I showed you in the video his defense on Kobe wasn't anything amazing. He is a good defender, has some dirty tricks, but that's it. Bowen does that job much better, and Artest is far more versatile and more physical.
Lol Wade is just an average defender. Not impressed with him either. I'd put Kobe and Bell ahead of Wade there. Kobe might be 4 I guess and Bell 5.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Oct 22 2006, 01:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lol Wade is just an average defender. Not impressed with him either. I'd put Kobe and Bell ahead of Wade there. Kobe might be 4 I guess and Bell 5.</div>Who the hell brought up Wade's defense? I said Bell isn't quick or athletic enough to stop a player like Wade from driving to the hoop.
Who is quick enough to stop Wade from going to the basket? Especially with the way the refs are calling it these day.
Bell held him too 33% 2 or 3 times, so what? Bowen gets more credit for doing worse but Raja's games aren't recognized because he played him more than any other defender and Kobe had a few good games? Only reason he won't get credit from Lakers fans is because of his problems with Kobe. He can guard a Chauncy or Pierce well. You can make the best defensive player in the world look bad in a fricken highlight video by the opposing team's fans.In 1 game I am looking at Pierce was 8-28Ricky Davis 6-17 14 pointsJason Richardson 5-14 12 pointsI think Bell defended Hamilton didn't he? 4-10 for 12 points...missed the game so I'm not sure. Probably did since Hamilton would score 50 on Nash. Haha
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 01:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Bell held him too 33% 2 or 3 times, so what? Bowen gets more credit for doing worse but Raja's games aren't recognized because he played him more than any other defender and Kobe had a few good games? Only reason he won't get credit from Lakers fans is because of his problems with Kobe. He can guard a Chauncy or Pierce well. You can make the best defensive player in the world look bad in a fricken highlight video by the opposing team's fans.In 1 game I am looking at Pierce was 8-28Ricky Davis 6-17 14 pointsJason Richardson 5-14 12 pointsI think Bell defended Hamilton didn't he? 4-10 for 12 points...missed the game so I'm not sure</div>Kobe himself has said Bruce is the toughest defender he has ever faced:http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5674782And how can a Laker fan make Bell look bad in a video? It isn't like they were edited, they were tons of highlights compiled together of the actual games. Bell didn't do anything special to Kobe on D. Look at the stats, watch the playoffs and regular season games again vs the Lakers (or against any other team), and you will see outside of his occasional trick he is nothing great on D.Pierce also had a 40+ point game on over 50% shooting. And I don't know with the Pistons, Billups played great vs Suns both times while Rip had a 12pt game and I believe an 18pt game (but the 18 point game was on a real good shooting %). mavsfan- Ask the Bulls perimeter D, they know.
If the Lakers fans hated Bruce Bowen or Artest they would make a video on him and say "OMG Kobe es god" and make them look bad. No one does well vs. Kobe but Raja did very well in some of the games. When you play the best player more games than anyone else of course you will look bad at least half the time no matter who you are.Manu Ginobli has said that Bell is the toughest to play against. Anyone that Bell has been assosciated with in his entire career says how good he is. What's your point?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If the Lakers fans hated Bruce Bowen or Artest they would make a video on him and say "OMG Kobe es god" and make them look bad. No one does well vs. Kobe but Raja did very well in some of the games. When you play the best player more games than anyone else of course you will look bad at least half the time no matter who you are.Manu Ginobli has said that Bell is the toughest to play against. Anyone that Bell has been assosciated with in his entire career says how good he is. What's your point?</div>Yes, they would, but the stats don't lie. 30PPG on 38% shooting or 42PPG on 48% shooting? Hmm.... Link? And my point is that you asked has Bowen ever shutdown Kobe or anything, and I showed he is the best defender Kobe has ever played against. Supposedly (although I haven't found confirmation) he said Artest is the 2nd toughest. What did he say about Bell? That he is a good defender, but he can score on him at anytime....and he has proven that.
All that matters was Bell was able to contain Kobe when it matters. You can talk about the regular season all you want but Kobe was contained in a series and the suns won partially because of that.
It was in an article over a year ago. I'm not going to do work for you. You go on justbball and do a search for it. Or go to a news place and look in the archives. I never said Bell was as good as them but don't you think that if those 2 players played twice as many or 3 times as many games as Raja that Kobe would make adjustments and have a couple of good games? Bell had 3 games at least that he held Kobe to less than 35% shooting this season, but he had to play against the best offensive player in the league 9 times while the others played against him once or twice in Artest's case this season or 3 or 4 times for Bowen. Kobe's not going to give Raja much credit when they hate eachother and he wants to make him look bad but Raja gets a lot of respect for his D from other players.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 01:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It was in an article over a year ago. I'm not going to do work for you. You go on justbball and do a search for it. Or go to a news place and look in the archives. I never said Bell was as good as them but don't you think that if those 2 players played twice as many or 3 times as many games as Raja that Kobe would make adjustments and have a couple of good games? Bell had 3 games at least that he held Kobe to less than 35% shooting this season, but he had to play against the best offensive player in the league 9 times while the others played against him once or twice in Artest's case this season or 3 or 4 times for Bowen. Kobe's not going to give Raja much credit when they hate eachother and he wants to make him look bad but Raja gets a lot of respect for his D from other players.</div>I found the [recent] article of Kobe/Bowen for you, why can't you do same with Ginobli/Bell?Kobe has had problems with Bruce all throughout his career, and has faced Artest a quite a bit in his career as well. Again, Kobe averaged 48% in season and 49% against Bell in playoffs, those under 40% shooting games were more than likely bad shooting games rather than great defense by Bell. I'm just about done with this. Bell is not a top 10-15 defender, which puts him in the good category for me. He is a good defender, better than many SG's on defense, but outside of his dirty little tricks he doesn't do anything very well and doesn't have the versatility Artest does.
Because it isn't recent and it will be a huge pain tracking it down since I already had to look throught the Suns schedule from last year multiple times today.See that's just you not giving him credit. That's why I think he's not overrated. It wasn't bad shooting nights by Kobe. If he is the best player in the league he won't have off-nights more than 1/3 of his games. Raja played good defense. I think he is a top 15 defender, not top 10 and not elite but he's right behind them.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 22 2006, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I found the [recent] article of Kobe/Bowen for you, why can't you do same with Ginobli/Bell?Kobe has had problems with Bruce all throughout his career, and has faced Artest a quite a bit in his career as well. Again, Kobe averaged 48% in season and 49% against Bell in playoffs, those under 40% shooting games were more than likely bad shooting games rather than great defense by Bell. I'm just about done with this. Bell is not a top 10-15 defender, which puts him in the good category for me. He is a good defender, better than many SG's on defense, but outside of his dirty little tricks he doesn't do anything very well and doesn't have the versatility Artest does.</div>I'm glad you're about done with this. It has been talked about for like 5 hours. lol. It is obvious you will not be persuaded into thinking Bell is a heck of a defender.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Because it isn't recent and it will be a huge pain tracking it down since I already had to look throught the Suns schedule from last year multiple times today.See that's just you not giving him credit. That's why I think he's not overrated. It wasn't bad shooting nights by Kobe. If he is the best player in the league he won't have off-nights more than 1/3 of his games. Raja played good defense. I think he is a top 15 defender, not top 10 and not elite but he's right behind them.</div>And I haven't? I actually did the averages and all of that, too.3 out of 9 games is 1/3, bro. Players like Mac, Bron, Pierce and other elite scorers are all the same in that sense, they will have a few horrible shooting nights mixed in there. What matters more is he averaged 42PPG on 48% shooting in season, and shot 49% in playoffs (I showed why his PPG wasn't higher already). Again, I consider him good, not great. He is better than many SG's at defense, but he is not any better than that.
I'm just saying Raja did better than most would do on Kobe. I thought I saw another game with bad shooting by Kobe but Raja had some good games against him, it's not fair to judge him on 1 or 2 great games(out of 9) by the best player in the league. Raja changed this team defensively. Watching this team the last two years was great when seeing how much better they got defensively. They were always considered a soft team but Kurt and Raja have made the team tougher. I really don't care what anyone thinks about that clotheline. It made a statement that Kobe won't be able to get away with all the elbows he was throwing. That he could not do anything he wished. I counted about 5 elbows by Kobe during the series. That's more classless than anything I've seen Raja do. He has changed this team's mindset and has made our team better by having him. I have a lot of respect for the guy. If you don't want to give him the respect he deserves than so be it. The players that go up against him know how good he is and he has so much respect from everyone he has played for for his defense and being a great teammate.Say whatever you want about him but I really have to say, your argument was very weak compared to the other debates you have been in.
ASU, I don't think you know what your talking about. Laker fans hate bruce bowen. Alot of the fans think he's a hack and a dirty defender. He's also a spur.edit: Guess what I found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvh9kEwekY8Let me tell you something. There is no-one in the league who can stop kobe. Bruce's defense is awesome but when you have Tim Duncan behind you your job is much easier. Raja bell doesn't' slow down kobe, it's more of kobe stopping himself. He slows himself down by being passive early on and when he starts being argressive it takes time to get into it. A perfect example of that is game 1.Raja's a good defender but he can't slow down kobe. Kobe's fg% is irrelevant in this case because you can never look at kobe's fg% and say he's been stopped. The only way you can say kobe's being slowed down by his defender is by watching the game.Raja's because famous because of kobe. He should be thanking him instead of clotheslining him.
