Who cares what Ron says? He's got a mouth <strike>bigger than paris hilton's *****</strike> as big as TO, and equally as stupid. Why not fight Big Ben? He too Big for you?Funny how they complain about stuff like this and get media when people are cutting themselves, killing other people, etc. Grow up Ron.Can't wait till Ron goes sour in SAC town, where to next?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 02:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm just saying Raja did better than most would do on Kobe. I thought I saw another game with bad shooting by Kobe but Raja had some good games against him, it's not fair to judge him on 1 or 2 great games(out of 9) by the best player in the league. Raja changed this team defensively. Watching this team the last two years was great when seeing how much better they got defensively. They were always considered a soft team but Kurt and Raja have made the team tougher. I really don't care what anyone thinks about that clotheline. It made a statement that Kobe won't be able to get away with all the elbows he was throwing. That he could not do anything he wished. I counted about 5 elbows by Kobe during the series. That's more classless than anything I've seen Raja do. He has changed this team's mindset and has made our team better by having him. I have a lot of respect for the guy. If you don't want to give him the respect he deserves than so be it. The players that go up against him know how good he is and he has so much respect from everyone he has played for for his defense and being a great teammate.Say whatever you want about him but I really have to say, your argument was very weak compared to the other debates you have been in.</div>Yeah, getting 42PPG dropped on you in season, including a 50pt game is really doing a great job on Kobe....He wasn't throwing many elbows at all, Raja sold them like hell. Don't get me wrong, I like Raja, and he is a great asset to the team, but he is N-O-T a great defender. You can say all you want about how you watch every Suns game and I don't, I don't know what I am talking about, etc... I have watched enough games, I have seen enough clips, and I have seen the stats to backup my statements. The only thing you have really brought forth is saying I don't know what I am talking about. Take a look at this:http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htmRaja Bell was ranked as one of the worst defensive SG's based on stats from 2002-2005, with 2004-2005 being weighed most heavily. You don't go from one of worst to a great defender in a year. Sure, stats don't prove everyhting, but Raja has NEVER been a great defender. You say he gets hands in people's faces, and I showed you a video that proved he doesn't always and a lot of times doesn't even contest shot. He even flopped on a screen, and Kobe went right by him for easy dunk. You say his dirty tricks are a huge advantage, but they're not. He doesn't use them as effectively as say a Bruce Bowen, and it just makes him out to look like a punk.How is my arguement weak? You say Raja did a very good job on Kobe yet Kobe dropped fu*king 42PPG on 48% shooting in season on Raja, and shot at a high % in playoffs against him and actually won games (including a game tying and game winning shot, both over Raja to put salt in the wounds). I have provided stats, I have expressed why I feel the way I do, and I have not disrespected Raja at all. I just don't feel he is a great defender, and I feel he is overrated by people who think he deserves to be very highly ranked (see: mavsfan). Without his dirty tricks he'd be an average defender, which brings me back to square one.
nitro what kind of stats are those, the best SG defenders are ben gordon, tony allen, aaron mckie, dermarr johnson, eddie jones, you must be f*cking kidding me, raja is better than all of those guys listed, you are just some lonely bi*ch who lives in his mamas basement that has nothing better to do than hate on guys because you cant admit you are wrong you gay ass faggot! kobe sucks your f*cking dick!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Oct 22 2006, 01:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>how can you say that? When you closeline a person, and then do this, in a span of what....15 games, he deserves to be considered a very dirty player. Think about it. I didnt see what happenned to Miller, but it was obviously bad enough to make Miller want to fight him, and to get Artest to say that. And that is not true what so ever that all players played like that. There were some players that played like that and guess what.....they were considered dirty players. Sure, it would have been the smart thing to do to keep it to himself, but none of it would have ever happenned if he wasnt provoked to do so.</div>Because it toughens up the game. There's nothing wrong with 2 flagrant fouls in a span of a year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thizz @ Oct 22 2006, 06:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>nitro what kind of stats are those, the best SG defenders are ben gordon, tony allen, aaron mckie, dermarr johnson, eddie jones, you must be f*cking kidding me, raja is better than all of those guys listed, you are just some lonely bi*ch who lives in his mamas basement that has nothing better to do than hate on guys because you cant admit you are wrong you gay ass faggot! kobe sucks your f*cking dick!</div>Read further down the list, the guy talks about how Gordon, Allen and Johnson all have inflated stats and should be taken with a grain fo salt.
who gives a sh*t you moron!!! that stuff means jack, if you would actually watch basketball you would see raja is still an individual defender than all those guys!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thizz @ Oct 22 2006, 07:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>who gives a sh*t you moron!!! that stuff means jack, if you would actually watch basketball you would see raja is still an individual defender than all those guys!</div>Yep....I watched...I watched Kobe light him up for 42PPG in the season. I watched Ray Allen and Paul Pierce go for over 40 against him. I've seen the stats, and I've seen what Bell does in games...he's good, not great.
so your judging everything on those games alone? what about all the other games where raja shut his guy down eh? I agree raja isnt great, but he is better than good. definately better than the regular sgbtwray allen went off for 42 in a double overtime game vs raja he played 51 minutes!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thizz @ Oct 22 2006, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>so your judging everything on those games alone? what about all the other games where raja shut his guy down eh? I agree raja isnt great, but he is better than good. definately better than the regular sgbtwray allen went off for 42 in a double overtime game vs raja he played 51 minutes!</div>I am judging my view on Bell from everyhting I have seen of him (about 20-25 regular season games, and all of the Suns' playoff games), stats that I have showed, etc... I agree, he is better than your average SG defensively, and I said that a few pages back. But he is NOT a great defensive player, and DEFINATELY not a top 3-5 defender like mavsfan said.He also shot it at over 50%, and he also went for over 30 in the other game they played.
<span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">I bet Ron Artest would knock Raja Bell out. I don't see the two fighting, though. They might cuss eachother out next time something bad happens on the court, but that's about it. Nothing too serious.</span>
How is raja bell a top 3-5 defender?1- His man to man defense isn't amazing. Since everyone here loves stats then look at the stats. Raja bell has been owned multiple times. When a guy averages 42ppg against you in a series you know your defense isn't worth of being called great. Other guys do a much better job then raja does against kobe.2- His off the ball defense is non existent. His dirty. Okay. He doesn't rack up steals or blocks. Those are the two components of defense and imo when you add them up it doesn't equal top 3-5 defender.Raja is what he is, an above average defender. Nothing more. Nothing less.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Oct 22 2006, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How is raja bell a top 3-5 defender?1- His man to man defense isn't amazing. Since everyone here loves stats then look at the stats. Raja bell has been owned multiple times. When a guy averages 42ppg against you in a series you know your defense isn't worth of being called great. Other guys do a much better job then raja does against kobe.2- His off the ball defense is non existent. His dirty. Okay. He doesn't rack up steals or blocks. Those are the two components of defense and imo when you add them up it doesn't equal top 3-5 defender.Raja is what he is, an above average defender. Nothing more. Nothing less.</div>If Kobe can't score above his season average after facing a guy 9 times than he shouldn't be considered the best player in the league. But he is and the best players adjust. I agree no one can stop Kobe so why do you judge a player's defense on how he does against him, just look at the couple great games Kobe had but not even pay attention to the bad games he did in which Raja DID make a difference there too. Again, if Kobe has an off game every 1/3 games then he shouldn't be the best player in the league, but he is and I thnk Raja did a pretty nice job. Not as good as Artest or Bowen would do, but I'm not saying he's better than either of them but he did a good job. Like that other guy said Nitro, those stats are a joke. And a highlight reel against the best player in the world doesen't show that he doesen't contest most shots. Look at him in every other game, he was playing very tough D. You are the only one, who has seen games besides the ones against the best player in the world(I'll take your word for it), that doesen't consider him a very good defensive player. I've told you, everyone he's ever worked with in the NBA has a lot of respect for him because of his D and anyone who watched him this year can see how good he is. You found a couple bad games, whoop di doo, I bet I can find 5 bad ones for Bowen. I don't consider him elite, or as good as those to but to me he is borderline top 15, definetly better than "above average" Melo.And you are CRAZY if you think Kobe didn't throw, and connect on a bunch of elbows. I watched the games and Raja did get hit with them a few times and on the last one just got out of the way, that's why he was pissed. And don't forget the one on Barbosa the day after. Just the fact that he tried to throw the elbows shows that he's no better than Raja. Throwing an elbow is worse than throwing a punch.Also, Bell didn't get his reputation for being a good defender this year. I'm trying to find the quote by Manu, it was on a forum but it's gone, and I keep reading about how good of a defender Bell is and he got his repuatation of being a good defender from how he played in the '01 playoffs. He wasn't known as much back then and his fued for Kobe made him noticed but anyone who watched him back then knew he was good. I only heard good things about him from the Jazz and Sixers followers.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>PHOENIX -- The Phoenix Suns, who have lost one shooting guard this summer and are close to losing another, signed free agent Raja Bell to a five-year contract worth just under $24 million on Wednesday. Raja Bell BellThe Suns insisted they never pursued Bell to hedge against the loss of Quentin Richardson and Joe Johnson."People speculated that signing Raja was an insurance policy," team president Bryan Colangelo told a news conference. "That is not the case. We signed Raja Bell because we thought we were greatly improving our team, the makeup of the organization."Bell, who has started just 80 of his 299 career games, is likely to be a regular this season.The former Utah Jazz co-captain is a renowned defensive player whose scoring averages have increased dramatically with playing time. Last season, he set career highs in scoring (12.3), rebounds (3.2), assists (1.5), field-goal percentage (.454) and minutes (28.4).The Suns traded Richardson and Nate Robinson to New York for forward-center Kurt Thomas and guard Dijon Thompson on June 28 to get some inside toughness. At the time, it was assumed they would be able to re-sign Johnson, who developed into a dangerous 3-point shooter last season and averaged a team-high 39.5 minutes.But Johnson began airing complaints about the Suns and avoiding their attempts to negotiate. Phoenix could have kept the restricted free agent by matching Atlanta's five-year, $69.6 million offer, but eventually tired of his attitude and worked out a sign-and-trade deal with the Hawks."From the get-go, our entire intention was to sign Joe Johnson," Suns managing partner Robert Sarver said. "As I read some of the reports and listen to some of the commentary about how we kind of duped our fans or tricked our fans or whatever, it's just totally false. We went out of our way to do everything we could to sign Joe Johnson."The deal is on hold, possibly until this weekend, while Atlanta works out what Suns chairman Jerry Colangelo called "their internal problems and issues."The Suns lose 2 inches -- Bell is 6-foot-5 -- and five points a game in a direct comparison of the guards, but believe fans will take to Bell.Bell earned a reputation as a defender with assignments against the likes of Ray Allen, Kobe Bryant and Manu Ginobili.Ginobili, who has the same agent as Bell, Herb Rudoy, complained to Rudoy when he learned that his defensive nemesis was going to a team that San Antonio met in the Western Conference finals."It was funny," Bell said. "You know, Manu's a competitor, and I do a good job, I'd like to say, on him, but he's a tough guard for me. So it's just a respect level. It's cool to hear somebody thinks you're that way, especially being the All-Star that he is, so it was flattering."Bell likes the idea of playing in a backcourt with All-Star point guard Steve Nash, a former Dallas teammate, and said the Suns' relentlessly up-tempo style is his kind of game."That was a major reason why I wanted to come to Phoenix," Bell said. "I'm so excited about the style of basketball that's played here and the atmosphere and commitment to winning. It was really a no-brainer when I heard there was interest -- this was the first team on my list."Bell, 28, took a circuitous route to the NBA. Undrafted in 1999 after using up his college eligibility with two seasons at Florida International, he played in Spain and for Sioux Falls of the International Basketball League and Yakima of the CBA before catching on with Philadelphia in April 2001.After a full season with the 76ers, Bell played for Dallas in 2002-03 and then Utah.</div>I also think it helps out Bowen that he has a good defensive team around him while the Suns in the playoffs last year sucked on D and when Bell was on the bench our guards played very bad defense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If Kobe can't score above his season average after facing a guy 9 times than he shouldn't be considered the best player in the league. But he is and the best players adjust. I agree no one can stop Kobe so why do you judge a player's defense on how he does against him, just look at the couple great games Kobe had but not even pay attention to the bad games he did in which Raja DID make a difference there too. Again, if Kobe has an off game every 1/3 games then he shouldn't be the best player in the league, but he is and I thnk Raja did a pretty nice job. Not as good as Artest or Bowen would do, but I'm not saying he's better than either of them but he did a good job. Like that other guy said Nitro, those stats are a joke. And a highlight reel against the best player in the world doesen't show that he doesen't contest most shots. Look at him in every other game, he was playing very tough D. You are the only one, who has seen games besides the ones against the best player in the world(I'll take your word for it), that doesen't consider him a very good defensive player. I've told you, everyone he's ever worked with in the NBA has a lot of respect for him because of his D and anyone who watched him this year can see how good he is. You found a couple bad games, whoop di doo, I bet I can find 5 bad ones for Bowen. I don't consider him elite, or as good as those to but to me he is borderline top 15, definetly better than "above average" Melo.And you are CRAZY if you think Kobe didn't throw, and connect on a bunch of elbows. I watched the games and Raja did get hit with them a few times and on the last one just got out of the way, that's why he was pissed. And don't forget the one on Barbosa the day after. Just the fact that he tried to throw the elbows shows that he's no better than Raja. Throwing an elbow is worse than throwing a punch.</div>I keep bringing up Kobe because you keep saying he did a very good job on him. I'm sory but going for over 40PPG on a better shooting % than his season average is NOT doing a very good job on him, I don't care what team you are on or who is defending you, that's unacceptable. Once again, players like Mac, players like Iverson, players like Bron, they ALL have 6-18 like shooting nights every once in awhile. That is what happens with dynamic scorers who take mostly jumpshots. And as I keep saying, Raja is a good defender, and did a decent job on Kobe, that's it.Please, explain how those stats are a joke? Please I'd love to hear.... Again, Bell is a solid, good defender who does a good job of sticking his man, hustling, and tries to use his dirty tricks to get into the heads of players. All of that equals a good defender to me. What makes a great defender? Being versatile, being one of the best at one aspect of your game, showing consistently you can shutdown other opposing superstars, getting defensive stats like SPG/BPG/forced TO's, and being such a presence that you can TOTALLY change the game with your defense by hyping team up and by changing a team's mentality. Bell doesn't fit into one of those categories, while Artest/Bowen/Prince/Kidd/B. Wallace/Duncan/KG/G. Wallace/Kobe/Kirileinko/Camby/Zo and others do. You think he is top 15? On top of those 12 players, I'd also put Hinrich, Billups, Iggy, Chandler, Battier, Okafur, Howard, Nocioni and others over him.Yes he did connect on elbows, but not nearly as frequently as you say, and none of which were very out of the norm of what Kobe usually does. And you HAVE to admit Bell flopped on quite a few of them.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Also, Bell didn't get his reputation for being a good defender this year. I'm trying to find the quote by Manu, it was on a forum but it's gone, and I keep reading about how good of a defender Bell is and he got his repuatation of being a good defender from how he played in the '01 playoffs.I also think it helps out Bowen that he has a good defensive team around him while the Suns in the playoffs last year sucked on D and when Bell was on the bench our guards played very bad defense.</div>Yes, Bowen is helped by that, but he is still a much better defender, and that is clearly apparent when you watch the 2 in games.As for the quote, while Ginobli did say that it didn't translate into fact this season. Ginobli put up 17PPG on 53% shooting, as opposed to how say Hinrich's D translated to stopping Wade, how Prince's D translated to stopping Bron, and how Bowen's D translated into stopping Kobe. Part of me believes that he may have gave him such high praise because they have same agent and Bell just signed a new contract with the Suns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkEqxP8CDe4About Artest wanting to fight him, I don't think it was on the flagrant because they seem to have some history. 4:07 into the video...I don't think Raja did a great job on Kobe but just as good anyone can do. Kobe just made some crazy shots which is what he does. Bowen never has "stopped" Kobe.Why would it matter if they have the same agent? Ginobli was mad because his best defender went to their biggest challenge, at the time. Those stats are a joke because it put Bowen as like the 7th best defender at his position I think...that's just stupid.Kobe doesen't change games with his D. He has done nothing to impress me. Now that is someone who's defense is really overrated. He didn't deserve the all-defensive team. Prince was helped TREMENDOUSLY by having the 2 Wallaces out there inside. I don't think he's any better than Raja. Kidd isn't that great anymore. Raja wouldn't let Anthony Johnson get 40 points on him, Kobe only did it against him like 3/9 times this year and he's 10 times better than Johnson. Iggy? What a joke...I wouldn't put Hinrich over him either. Out of those 20 I'd put Raja at 15, right at were I said he was, borderline top 15.
Oh look, in 1 game last year against the Spurs Kobe had 43 points on better than 50% shooting.Triple the games Bowen plays against Kobe and I'm sure Kobe would've had 2 or 3 more games like that like he did vs. Raja.Kobe only got 28 points in 1 game against Artest but he shot over 50%. Oh yeah, it was just because he was uh...passing that he didn't get more.Bowen and Artest have had some success guarding Kobe but they've both had bad games as well and the difference between them and Raja is that they get credit for their good games but there's always excuses about why Kobe didn't do as well vs. Raja. And having 9 games against him helps because you get 1 or 2 more great games by Kobe. Raja did almost as well as anyone else could have done on Kobe. Go ahead and make excuses if you wish. Hey, give him the 2 Wallaces like Prince, or a Tim Duncan like Bowen or anyone intimidating inside and he would be on a few all-defensive teams.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Oct 22 2006, 03:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Because it toughens up the game. There's nothing wrong with 2 flagrant fouls in a span of a year.</div>If he wanted to toughen up the game he wouldn't fall to the floor every time someone lays a finger on him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkEqxP8CDe4About Artest wanting to fight him, I don't think it was on the flagrant because they seem to have some history. 4:07 into the video...I don't think Raja did a great job on Kobe but just as good anyone can do. Kobe just made some crazy shots which is what he does. Bowen never has "stopped" Kobe.Why would it matter if they have the same agent? Ginobli was mad because his best defender went to their biggest challenge, at the time. Those stats are a joke because it put Bowen as like the 7th best defender at his position I think...that's just stupid.Kobe doesen't change games with his D. He has done nothing to impress me. Now that is someone who's defense is really overrated. He didn't deserve the all-defensive team. Prince was helped TREMENDOUSLY by having the 2 Wallaces out there inside. I don't think he's any better than Raja. Kidd isn't that great anymore. Raja wouldn't let Anthony Johnson get 40 points on him, Kobe only did it against him like 3/9 times this year and he's 10 times better than Johnson. Iggy? What a joke...I wouldn't put Hinrich over him either. Out of those 20 I'd put Raja at 15, right at were I said he was, borderline top 15.</div>Heh, you see Bell back down, then a referee nearly took him down? As I showed you, Bowen is by far Kobe's best defender. And I'd say holding him to 9-33 shooting is as close to shutting him down as you'll get.It makes the aqcuirement of Bell look at that much more of a success for the agent. NOT saying that is the whole reaosn why Ginobli said it, as I am sure he does think Bell is a very good defender, but it doesn't translate into season like with other players.Read the little tidbits on the players and they'll explain why Bowen is an elite defender in league.Kobe has done nothing on D? What about what he did to T-Mac after T-Mac went off for over 40 in 3 quarters against Devean George? Kobe sticked him, held him to like 0 points, and had a 20 point 4th quarter to beat the Magic. I can think of tons of other times he has stopped other teams offensive threats, and his stats and such all prove it.Bell is better than Prince? Haha, ok.How about Kidd holding Nash to 0 points? Or Billups to 9? How about holding Chris Paul considerably under average? How about holding GA to 21PPG on 35% shooting?Iggy is one of the best defensive SG's in the league....Hinrich is definately a better defender than Bell. He is just as tough but also gets steals and is even more agressive.
Yeah, it's funny how you bring up Allen's game. Anyone who saw that sonics game and knows what they saw knows that Allen could've hit anything. You could've put the whole nba on him and he had such a hot hand he woulda made it. He hit that 30 something footer didn't he? Nobody could defend that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 21 2006, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Artest would fu*king destroy him.I hate Raja, he's a dirty player and overrated on defense.</div>*co-signs*
Does Igoudala guard Kobe? 19-29 for 48 pointsCuttino Mobley? 8-12 for 20 pointsWell lets see if I can find some games on Kidd...Nash 11/18 for 27 pointsChauncy Billups 9/14 for 30 pointsTony Parker 8-15, too quick I guessAllen Iverson, 40 off 50% shootingWade, 32 points<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Something-To-Say @ Oct 22 2006, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, it's funny how you bring up Allen's game. Anyone who saw that sonics game and knows what they saw knows that Allen could've hit anything. You could've put the whole nba on him and he had such a hot hand he woulda made it. He hit that 30 something footer didn't he? Nobody could defend that.</div>And how many overtimes did that game go to? 2, 3? He had 51 minutes do do that I think I heard someone say.And Raja didn't back down from Artest by the way. He was going back at him.
