ASUFan22 just owned Nitro with those last comments. I don't have the exact stats but Bryant went off on Bowen in the second round of the 03-04 playoffs. I guess based on your definition Bowen is just an average defender.
In 2 games in that 03-04 playoff series Kobe scored more points than he did in any of the 6 games in the playoffs vs. Raja. And he didn't score that much in the playoffs 2 years ago overall but those were his highest and 4th highest scoring games in the championship run and they came vs. Bowen.
This thread didn't deserve more than one page of replies, especially if you guys keep rambling on and on like Eryka Badu about the same thing. Most boring thread on the front page.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Oct 22 2006, 05:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Because it toughens up the game. There's nothing wrong with 2 flagrant fouls in a span of a year.</div>yeah your right, but there is something wrong with two flagrant fouls in the span of 15 games in which one of them came in a meaningless pre season game. your "ignorant" if you dont think he is dirty.
Everyone knows he plays dirty. But everyone is overreacting to this. Flagrant fouls happen and I'm glad we have guys like Raja and Kurt because we had the softest team in the NBA before them.
I am replying to CB4's original post because he said there was nothing wrong with what he did and how everyone needs to get over it. If you dont think there is anything wrong with what Raja did, let him do that every 15 games and see how many games he gets suspended for. He needs to cool down and stop acting like a punk.
Yeah, ron artest has never committed a flagrant foul, so he's the best one to be outraged when someone does it to his team...
Ballerman, it's not like he does it every 15 games he plays. Sure he commits a few of them like many players do but not that frequently.
It all comes down to the fact that Ron won't fight anyone his size or bigger. Big Ben knocks on the door, Ron flies out the back, but then Raja does this and Ron's all "oh Yeah I wanna fight this guy, he's smaller than me, I should win!"
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ballerman, it's not like he does it every 15 games he plays. Sure he commits a few of them like many players do but not that frequently.</div>well, lets see in the next 15 games. He committed one in a preseason game that doesn't mean a single thing....very immature and childish.
Playing agressive isn't childish. It's good basketball. You didn't even see the foul. I bet it wasn't anything out of the ordinary or malicious.
There is a difference between playing aggressive and intentionally trying to hurt somebody. your right, I havent seen the play yet...but if its half as milicious as what he did to Kobe, it was childish. he needs to grow up.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Does Igoudala guard Kobe? 19-29 for 48 pointsCuttino Mobley? 8-12 for 20 points</div>Also held Kobe to a 7-27 shooting game with 17pts. So for season he held Kobe to 33PPG on 50% shooting. It's much harder to tell how Iggy would guard Kobe as they plays only twice a year, and in his rookie year he held Kobe to 27PPG on 42% shooting, both in March after Kobe came back from his absence. So it is somewhat fair and unfair for both players, and this season will help us better see this matchup. He has held VC below average, T-Mac way below average, JRich below average, Redd below average, etc... Ontop of that he is also more versatile in he can defend more positions and gets more steals. Give me Iggy over Bell.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Well lets see if I can find some games on Kidd...Nash 11/18 for 27 pointsChauncy Billups 9/14 for 30 pointsTony Parker 8-15, too quick I guessAllen Iverson, 40 off 50% shootingWade, 32 points</div>-0 points, bro, he guarded Nash so well it totally shutdown the Suns offense (they had like the worst FG % in Suns history and scored only 72pts...and I was there!)-Also held him to a 9 point game.-Tony Parker is impossible to guard straight up because of his speed, and for record both him and Ginobli were above their averages vs Suns.-Again, Allen iverson is way too fast for Bell and Kidd (Raja had to guard the other AI this year).-Held Wade below average for season.Kidd is still the premier defending PG in league, still gets the steals and does a fantastic job on the best PG's in league, and still a better defender than Raja. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And how many overtimes did that game go to? 2, 3? He had 51 minutes do do that I think I heard someone say.And Raja didn't back down from Artest by the way. He was going back at him.</div>He shot over 50% in that game and was at 31pts by end of regulation, and scored over 26/30pts+ in the other games vs the Suns. It's fair to say he gives Raja problems.They were toe to toe, Raja backed up, Artest stepped to him, and Raja didn't go back at him.Aight dude, I'm officially done with this. We have gotten really off topic, and now going into all different directions. Bottom line is I feel the "great" defenders are top 10 or so, and Bell doesn't fit in that category. I don't even think he's top 15, 'nor the best defender on his team (Marion is about as good of a 1 on 1 defender, but a far better help defender with his stealing, blocking and if you count rebounds, then rebound ability. Also a lot more versatile.). Therefor I put him in the "good" category. He's a solid defender, and works really well in the Suns' system. But from EVERYTHING I have seen of him with the Suns and looking at the stats, outside of his little tricks he does nothing exceptionally well. He's still without a doubt a solid, good defender that really works hard to stop his man, but I can't put him in the same breath with Bowen, Artest, Prince, etc...
Then maybe Luke Walton needs to grow up. His takedown of Tim Thomas was pretty bad, close to what Raja did. How about Kwame Brown throwing Diaw to the floor? He needs to grow up. Kobe throwing a bunch of elbows he needs to grow up. Bruce Bowen kicking people in the face, he needs to grow up. Ron Artest pulling pants down and fighting with fans he needs to grow up. Tim Duncan crying like a baby to the refs after every call against him needs to grow up. Raja did nothing wrong here. And on the clothesline he was trying to go after his shoulders and take him down to show him that he can't get away with throwing elbows at everyone.Okay Nitro I'm done with it also. I'll let Raja prove it himself during the games. Good debate.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Then maybe Luke Walton needs to grow up. His takedown of Tim Thomas was pretty bad, close to what Raja did. How about Kwame Brown throwing Diaw to the floor? He needs to grow up. Kobe throwing a bunch of elbows he needs to grow up. Bruce Bowen kicking people in the face, he needs to grow up. Ron Artest pulling pants down and fighting with fans he needs to grow up. Tim Duncan crying like a baby to the refs after every call against him needs to grow up. Raja did nothing wrong here. And on the clothesline he was trying to go after his shoulders and take him down to show him that he can't get away with throwing elbows at everyone.Okay Nitro I'm done with it also. I'll let Raja prove it himself during the games. Good debate.</div>I keep asking people about that Kwame thing. I mean, it's real manly to stand over a guy when he's on the ground. Kwame continues to be a class act. Thanks for drafting him, MJ.
I want you to explain to me ASU, how raja did a better job then other people. This is the top 3 teams kobe's averaged the most on1- Toronto2- Dallas3- Suns3rd in the league. He gave up 40+ points on a good percentage to kobe. So how on earth can you tell me he did a better job then most?Against spurs and bowen kobe shot, 38%. Against battier/jones and memphis he shot 40%. He scored 27 and 22 respectively.But against raja? 42 points per game on 48%. That's an increase of 7 points and 3%. That isn't stopping or playing good defense. That is called being owned.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 22 2006, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh look, in 1 game last year against the Spurs Kobe had 43 points on better than 50% shooting.Triple the games Bowen plays against Kobe and I'm sure Kobe would've had 2 or 3 more games like that like he did vs. Raja.</div>I know I just said I was done, but I noticed you double posted last page and I never saw this:Ok, here is the difference: In season, Bowen held Kobe to 6PPG under average, and 8% under average for FG %. In season, Raja let Kobe get 6 more PPG on 2 % better FG %. In playoffs Kobe took 9 less FGA's per game against Raja, and shot the ball at 49%. Do you HONESTLY believe, considering what he did to Raja during season, that Kobe wouldn't have done same thing to Raja as he did during season if it meant a win? Of course he would.
Kobe only had 2 or 3 games with over 40 points against him out of 9. 33% of his games. All of the rest of the games he played Raja did a pretty decent job and in a few Kobe shot less than 35%. Bowen only had to play him 3 times and in 1 of those games Kobe had a better game I think than he did at any time vs. Raja. If Bowen had played 6 more games against Kobe I'm sure he would've done it to him quite a few times. I agree with you that no one can stop Kobe so comparing defensive abilities against him was dumb, but for the most part Raja kept Kobe from having many really good games. And one thing that Raja didn't have was the insurance that a good defensive big man gives you. In the playoffs the Suns didn't have any big men to help out if Kobe got away from Raja and Barbosa, when he was the back-up was REALLY bad defensively last year at times.That's why I'm saying that. I would definetly have Bowen or Artest instead of him but Raja didn't do a bad job at all.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 22 2006, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I know I just said I was done, but I noticed you double posted last page and I never saw this:Ok, here is the difference: In season, Bowen held Kobe to 6PPG under average, and 8% under average for FG %. In season, Raja let Kobe get 6 more PPG on 2 % better FG %. In playoffs Kobe took 9 less FGA's per game against Raja, and shot the ball at 49%. Do you HONESTLY believe, considering what he did to Raja during season, that Kobe wouldn't have done same thing to Raja as he did during season if it meant a win? Of course he would.</div>There was 1 game in the season that boosted his average. Raja did fairly well in the other two.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>for the most part Raja kept Kobe from having many really good games.</div>What don't you understand?Kobe averaged 42 Points per game. 48% percent shooting. That's an increase of a whole 7 point and an increase effeciency. In the playoffs kobe averaged less points but also on an increased effeciency. That series kobe was not meant to score 40ppg like he did in the season. He had to get his teamates involve and then close it when it came to the clutch.You said "he kept kobe from having many really good games"? What is good for kobe? 42 ppg iss great. I think everyone has forgotten what "big scoring" is.edit: Why are you bring up kobe from the past? Kobe last season was injured. He had planatar faci-whatever and his shooting touch was off. Once he recovered he shot 47%. The season before he came into camp out of shape and not in the mood to play the basketball. He was shooting mid 30's during one month. Let's compare the healthy kobe, not out of shape injured kobe.
I was talking about this year though. First of all about him averaging the 3rd most points against the Suns. His 2 best games were when Raja wasn't there. They played eachother 9 times THIS SEASON. Kobe is going to have great games against anyone, but 6/9 games Raja did a good job against him(Bowen also did well 2/3 games he played Kobe) and that's all you can ask for with anyone going up against Kobe. No one person will stop him.Are we done with this yet?
