Jack Morris is no more a HOFer then Pettitte or Mussina

Discussion in 'New York Yankees' started by blgridesagain, Dec 28, 2013.

  1. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    After his 1985 season when he went 22-6 (34 years old) & finished 2nd in the CYA voting his career just seemed to collapse. Going only 16-23 over his final 3 seasons. I don't know what happened, honestly I don't remember. But through that 85 season he was 154-68 & well on his way to a HOF career. Shame it ended the way it did.
     
  2. BigDaddyAl1973

    BigDaddyAl1973 Well-Known Member

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    I think he had elbow surgery in 1988 and showed little in spring training of 1989 at the age of 37
     
  3. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    So went went wrong in 86 & 87?
     
  4. Mattingly23NY

    Mattingly23NY Turning Fastballs Into Souveneir's ~

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    I always thought Jack Morris should of been in the HOF. 3 Rings with 3 different Teams, a sure fire pitcher, who knew how to win the BIG games.

    So I thought, until I read this by T. Verducci. (no I am not a Verducci fan, on the contrary, he to often lacks depth or statistics in his arguments on MLB.TV. Altho' he may of nailed the coffin door shut on Jack's career:

    I don't think it's a secret that the sabermetric case for Jack Morris is an especially thin one. *A ranking using WAR has him about the 25th best player on the ballot. *But we hear all of these stats about how much of a workhorse Morris was. *Here is an example from Tom Verducci. *Now it's true that Morris pitched into the 8th the most of his era, but when he did he was actually way below average among of group of pitchers who pitched 100+ outings of that length.

    Morris worked deep in the games, but it was largely due to usage rather than effectiveness. * When he went 8 innings he was league average, when he went five innings he was league average. *The chart below shows the number of innings completed by the starter per start. *So the "0" row is not all first innings, but just the games they didn't make it out of the first inning. *Their complete games would be in the 9 row. *Now there is a value to pitching late into games and Morris should be credited by that value, but it certainly looks to me that a big reason Morris went late into games was the astronomical run support he was getting not because he was pitching so much better than the average pitcher. *Note that for outings last one inning or longer Morris' RA is WORSE than league average for every single outing length.
     
  5. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    A 3 time 20 game winner Morris IMO was never that dominating pitcher & never really had that LIGHTS OUT season. And the only stat that he often led the league in was WP. A good pitcher YES! but a hall of famer NO!.
     
  6. yankeesince59

    yankeesince59 "Oh Captain, my Captain".

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    ...to be fair, you could say the same about Moose and Pettitte.
     
  7. Mattingly23NY

    Mattingly23NY Turning Fastballs Into Souveneir's ~

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    Agreed. I thought Morris was a HOF'er, until he came on the Ballot, and I looked into his history and stats. 3 World Series with 3 teams, is a feat, and he bolstered all 3 staffs. Although, Jack's Stats are far from Hall Worthy.
     
  8. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    That is very true but of the 3 of them Morris won less, lost more, had the higher ERA gave up more HRs, more walks & had the lower winning% by far.

    Honestly if I had to choose the only one of the 3 that I would put in would be Mussina. JMO.
     
  9. yankeesince59

    yankeesince59 "Oh Captain, my Captain".

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    ...oh, I agree...of the 3, Moose should definitely be in The Hall.
     
  10. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    Again of the 3 Mussina had the lower ERA, WHIP, walks, more strike outs. And a higher winning %. Oh & did I mention the 7 GGs?
     
  11. yankeesince59

    yankeesince59 "Oh Captain, my Captain".

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    ...lol...you're preaching to the choir...like I said, I agree.
     
  12. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    I know you did, and rightfully so. It was for the others that don't quite understand my genius.
     
  13. blgridesagain

    blgridesagain team player

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    Jack Morris, Don Sutton, Bert Blyleven belong in the Hall of The Very Good -
    Andre Dawson and Carlton Fisk also.

    By the way, Greg Maddux won 20 games twice...I know I know.....a ridiculous statement,
    ...he won 19 games 5 times. What the heck. lol
    Ahem, and his aggregate career "numbers" pitching against D.H. / A.L. lineups during inter league play are nothing to write home about.
    I firmly believe his carer numbers would've taken a considerable hit if he pitched his entire career vs D.H. lineups. Go ahead, take your shots.

    lol
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  14. Mattingly23NY

    Mattingly23NY Turning Fastballs Into Souveneir's ~

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    Agreed...I too think Smoltz and Pedro deserve a good look during HOF voting. I was a bit surprised when I looked at both of their numbers. They both were dominating, except Pedro's "NY is my Daddy", he had a great career. A real shame the Bums didn't know what they had in Pedro.

    With Smoltz's 154 Saves, and 215 Wins, plus his 15 years of Post Season Pitching, I would not be surprised if he joins his two comrades of Maddux and Glavine in the hallowed Halls.

    As for Guidry what a shame for the Ragin' Cajun. Guidry was lights out in his prime. I liked his killer, un-hittable Slider; more than Lefty Carlton's. Yet, his numbers will never see Ron in the HOF, even with Veteran's Committee consideration. Just my opinion for the 2 cents its barely worth.
     
  15. blgridesagain

    blgridesagain team player

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    I like Smoltz and I think he was an excellent pitcher but I don't think he's a Hall of Famer.
    You shouldn't get extra points just because you had to convert to being a relief pitcher and saved 154 (not 354) games. Tell me what his save percentages were when he was a closer.

    By the way, as it has been previously said, Guidry volunteered for bullpen duty during the season which probably cost him a good chance at another 20 win season and a few more career wins.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  16. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    You've got to remember also that Guidry's career started late. He was 26. And after only 9 seasons he was 154-68 at the young age of 34. Then it came to a very abrupt end where he only went 16-23 over his final 3 years. So when you take into account the 3-4 years that his career started late & the final 3 where he was just terrible, you're looking at 6-7 years that could've made a very big difference.
     
  17. Mattingly23NY

    Mattingly23NY Turning Fastballs Into Souveneir's ~

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    Outstanding point Rick....

    I'll be back in a hour or 2 or 3, got some quick errands to run, well....guess I'll walk instead.
     

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