Re: Hate Nash all you want, but dang! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diesel @ Oct 29 2006, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dude look at their past teams as well. The Lakers went from a Finals team to the lottery. Dallas arguably got better even while losing Nash to free agency while getting NOTHING in return. Yeah how valuable. The Lakers also got players in return for Shaq. Phoenix didn't have to give up anyone for Nash. Both players though turned their teams into championship contenders. I don't care what anyone says or who won the official award. Shaq was the 04-05 MVP. Nothing against Nash, but I have a problem giving the MVP to a player who only plays good on one side of the floor.</div>That's nice and all but this is about ONE season and Nash WAS the MVP. There's no doubt that throughout their whole careers Shaq was the better player and more valuable but Nash deserved that MVP.
Re: Hate Nash all you want, but dang! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Oct 29 2006, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That's nice and all but this is about ONE season and Nash WAS the MVP. There's no doubt that throughout their whole careers Shaq was the better player and more valuable but Nash deserved that MVP.</div>I'm not going by their careers. Both teams played on new teams.n I was just showing how their old teams fared without them and how they improved their new teams.ShaqLA 04 /w Shaq: 56-26LA 05 /wo Shaq: 34-48Miami 04 /wo Shaq: 42-40Miami 05 /w Shaq: 59-23LA got worse by 22 wins and Miami got better by 17 wins. Shaq gets a 39 game difference.NashDallas 04 /w Nash: 52-30Dallas 05 /wo Nash: 58-24Phoenix 04 /wo Nash: 29-53Phoenix 05 w/ Nash: 62-20Dallas actually got better without Nash. A true MVPs departure from a franchise(he just walked off on them) shouldn't make the team better. Would the Chicago Bulls of the 90s have been a better team if Jordan left them? I think not. Nashs teams had a 27 win improvement with the two combined. 33 win improvement for Phoenix, but Dallas improved also by 6 games.39>27I found this to be an accurate way of calculating who means more to their teams. Also Dallas has gotten to their first Finals this past year WITHOUT Nash. Better team without him. Miami has also won a Championship(1st ever) with Shaq. Shaq is a better defensive player and did what Nash did on the Heats offense that year. Got everyone involved and he greatly boosted thier numbers. He turned nobodies into somebodies. He turned Damon Jones and Udonis Haslem into nobodies to guys that were getting recognition around the league. Shaq did what Nash did on offense, but with good defense as well. Shaq hardly ever gets embarassed by his defender. You won't see any Nash-vicious moves on Shaq.
Re: Hate Nash all you want, but dang! I think we need to remember that the MVP is the Most VALUABLE Player. You can't bring Dallas into this debate because we are not talking about the Mavs here. Now I'm going from what you posted here. Shaq brought the Heat up 17 wins. That's good. But now look at the Suns' records you posted. Gaining Nash, they became a 62 win team from a 29 win team. Big difference there. It doesn't matter if you say stuff like, "they had Amare!" or "they also got JJ and Q". Without Nash, the Suns would not be a 50+ win team.
Re: Hate Nash all you want, but dang! That has nothing to do with what he did with the Suns though. He didn't win the MVP with the Mavs. This was 1 season and he made a much bigger difference to his team he was on that year. The Mavs having a better had a lot to do with them becoming a more defensive minded team and with Avery there their record was about 15-3? or better. If there wasn't any coaching change the Mavs wouldn't have improved their record like that.Also, don't forget that the Suns were a lottery team and he led them, without Joe Johnson most of the way, to beat his former team who was playing very well at that time. But yeah, like I said, their better record was mostly due to the coaching change not Nash leaving. Their record would've been a bit worse without Avery.
Re: Hate Nash all you want, but dang! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I think we need to remember that the MVP is the Most VALUABLE Player. You can't bring Dallas into this debate because we are not talking about the Mavs here. Now I'm going from what you posted here. Shaq brought the Heat up 17 wins. That's good. But now look at the Suns' records you posted. Gaining Nash, they became a 62 win team from a 29 win team. Big difference there. It doesn't matter if you say stuff like, "they had Amare!" or "they also got JJ and Q". Without Nash, the Suns would not be a 50+ win team.</div>We arn't talking about the Mavs. We're talking about Steve Nash. What I'm saying is. Teams that lose an MVP type player and get nothing in return don't increase their win total the next year. What he did with Phoenix is amazing, but I just can't ignore that Dallas actually became a better team after losing Steve Nash. Without Shaq the Heat also would not have been a 50+ win team that season. What is your point. Shaq shifted the power of the league in that season. He actually made the Eastern Conference a respectable threat to the NBA Title. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>That has nothing to do with what he did with the Suns though. He didn't win the MVP with the Mavs. This was 1 season and he made a much bigger difference to his team he was on that year. The Mavs having a better had a lot to do with them becoming a more defensive minded team and with Avery there their record was about 15-3? or better. If there wasn't any coaching change the Mavs wouldn't have improved their record like that.Also, don't forget that the Suns were a lottery team and he led them, without Joe Johnson most of the way, to beat his former team who was playing very well at that time. But yeah, like I said, their better record was mostly due to the coaching change not Nash leaving. Their record would've been a bit worse without Avery.</div>Dude do you think the Bulls were a better team when Jordan retired for the first time? Theres a reason they didn't win any more titles until he came back. How about the Lakers with Shaq. They were contending for a decade and went from Finals to Lottery team when he left. The Mavs have been a better team these past two years than they were in the Nash era. Primarily because they have a PG who can actually play defense. I honestly doubt the Suns will win a title in the Nash era because having a PG who can play defense is very important. Theres a reason Kidd has been in 2 NBA Finals while Nash has been in 0. Lol. You think a coach would outweigh the impact of an "MVP" ditching you. Alright let's pretend your the Bobcats GM. Who would you rather get on your team. AN MVP player(let's just say Tim Duncan a two time winner of the award.) or a better coach like Avery Johnson. Exactly.
Re: Hate Nash all you want, but dang! I think you guys are missing a point. Your completley forgetting the hiring of Mike D'Antoni. He brought that offensive system in, without him I don't think the Suns offense gets to be where it's at. His hiring was pure genious.
Re: Hate Nash all you want, but dang! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diesel @ Oct 29 2006, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>We arn't talking about the Mavs. We're talking about Steve Nash. What I'm saying is. Teams that lose an MVP type player and get nothing in return don't increase their win total the next year. What he did with Phoenix is amazing, but I just can't ignore that Dallas actually became a better team after losing Steve Nash. Without Shaq the Heat also would not have been a 50+ win team that season. What is your point. Shaq shifted the power of the league in that season. He actually made the Eastern Conference a respectable threat to the NBA Title. Dude do you think the Bulls were a better team when Jordan retired for the first time? Theres a reason they didn't win any more titles until he came back. How about the Lakers with Shaq. They were contending for a decade and went from Finals to Lottery team when he left. The Mavs have been a better team these past two years than they were in the Nash era. Primarily because they have a PG who can actually play defense. I honestly doubt the Suns will win a title in the Nash era because having a PG who can play defense is very important. Theres a reason Kidd has been in 2 NBA Finals while Nash has been in 0. Lol. You think a coach would outweigh the impact of an "MVP" ditching you. Alright let's pretend your the Bobcats GM. Who would you rather get on your team. AN MVP player(let's just say Tim Duncan a two time winner of the award.) or a better coach like Avery Johnson. Exactly.</div>My point is that Avery made a huge difference to the team. If the Mavs stayed with the same coach they would've been worse without Nash. And Nash made the Suns a much much better team than a year before. If the Bulls got 2 or 3 solid players to replace MJ and somehow got a much better coach for the team than Phil Jackson then they wouldn't have done much worse. The MVP isn't about what the past team did. Shaq has been the most valuble of his teams throughout his career but THAT year Nash had a great season and was very, very important to the Suns and he deserved it.Oh yeah, Jason Williams and D-Wade are really great defensive players right? I think the Suns have a good chance to win.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Oct 29 2006, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think you guys are missing a point. Your completley forgetting the hiring of Mike D'Antoni. He brought that offensive system in, without him I don't think the Suns offense gets to be where it's at. His hiring was pure genious.</div>He was a big reason but the hiring of Nash was also big. Very few point guards could do such a good job in that offense. If the Suns didn't do anything I'm sure D'Antoni would have made them a playoff team at a low seed but Nash is the reason why they were so good.
Re: Hate Nash all you want, but dang! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diesel @ Oct 30 2006, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dude look at their past teams as well. The Lakers went from a Finals team to the lottery. Dallas arguably got better even while losing Nash to free agency while getting NOTHING in return. Yeah how valuable. The Lakers also got players in return for Shaq. Phoenix didn't have to give up anyone for Nash. Both players though turned their teams into championship contenders. I don't care what anyone says or who won the official award. Shaq was the 04-05 MVP. Nothing against Nash, but I have a problem giving the MVP to a player who only plays good on one side of the floor.</div>I agree 110%. But Diseal, you have to remember that the lakers lost Karl Malone, very good role -quoteplayer for us and was the best post defender on the team. Gary payton was also gone. That's 2 key players of our run in 04. When you factor in our lack of depth and the injuries it wasn't all shaq.I agree though. Shaq was the mvp in 04-05. No doubt about it.edit: Asu, the heat had great permiter defenders and shotblockers. Suns have perimiter defenders but their shotblocking category is empty. Also, let's remember that the heat have a superstar and the suns don't.Oh, and pat riley is a much much better coach then d'antoni.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq did what Nash did on offense, but with good defense as well</div>Shaq is not a good defender. He hasn't been a good defender since 2000.
