<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falconman1130 @ Dec 3 2006, 12:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The idea of a second scoring option means that even if there's just ONE then he had one.So he had one.One thing in Bosh's defense is isn't he playing somewhat injured? The thing Tim Duncan had last year?</div> Yeah he is playing with a slight platar facisitis or something. Exapnding on the second scoring option, if James is scoring in the backcourt whos helping in the front? No one could fill that void for the Raptors, and you all know James doesn't pass, so where does Bosh get his points from? Touches at the 20 foot line, which he turns into drives, or 18 footers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Dec 3 2006, 01:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Rashard Lewis. People talk about him as an All-Star and everything, I don't see it. He is a good shooter, sure, but what else? He is athletic, but he doesn't use it to his advantage. His defense is non-existant, just like most Sonics players, he's 6'10'' and athletic and he doesn't drive/post up, he doesn't rebound. I don't think he's as good as people think he is. He was an All-Star a couple years ago.. eh.Lewis and Peja - same deal.</div> I agree, but people are starting to see Rashard for what he is. A good shooter who uses his size well on the perimeter...and thats about it. Whenever I've watched Rashard he seems kind of stiff and mechanical and not a really great athlete...his lateral quickness isn't great either. He's a notorious softy which is one of the reasons why I've stopped rooting for him.
Raptorsfan, Have you ever heard of Pau Gasol? His teammates in the frontcourt was Jake Tsakalidas and Lorenzen Wright. Who was the second leading scorer after Pau? Mike Miller, yeah the guy off the bench. And you mentioned Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant, all together those two equal one MVP awards, 5 Finals appearances and 3 titles(all to Kobe). So dont even try to compare their situation with Boshs. And Bosh is a big man. Most big men with those stats dont get the 1st overall pick. Im getting more and more of a non-stat kindve guy. Just cause Bosh is getting 12 rebounds doesn't mean hes a supreme player. Hes overrated because he seems like a franchise player, but he hasnt proven it yet.
I would have to go with Ron Artest. Particular on the offensive end that he gets overrated. Sure he scores a lot but doesn't shoot a high percentage and there are other options on Sacramento that are better. Artest would be better as a playmaker than just firing up shots.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Dec 3 2006, 01:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I would have to go with Ron Artest. Particular on the offensive end that he gets overrated. Sure he scores a lot but doesn't shoot a high percentage and there are other options on Sacramento that are better. Artest would be better as a playmaker than just firing up shots.</div>Agreed. Artest is a ballhog. But I don't think he's overated cause his defense is better than Kobe's offense.
A name that hasnt been mentioned is "Brad Miller". He has always been a player that has been considered a top 3-6 center in the NBA, and this year he is averaging 7 ppg and 7 rpg. He is a soft center who doesn't play good defense, and relies to much on his outside game which isnt that great.And Noah, why is Tim Duncan overrated? A player that has brought 3 championships to San Antonio, 2 MVP's, he has led his team to the playoffs EVERY year he has been in the league (and they have almost always gotten past the first round....maybe one year where they didnt), he has lead them to a couple 60 win seasons, and more 55+ win seasons than you could imagine. He gets you 20 and 10 a night, with great defense, leadership, and experience. Against the Mavs in the playoffs last year, he put up I think what was 35+ a night with over 12+ rebounds. How in the hell is that overrated?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz76 @ Dec 3 2006, 01:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Chris BoshChris Bosh was a freaken all-star last year. His team was one of the worse, when I see him play he gets stats, and only stats. He doesn't do whats good for the team and I really dont see him getting to a superstar level. He would have to change his game. From looking at stats, you must think im crazy, but its my opinion that he has alotve the same qaulites yall are saying Tmac has.</div>Wow, why does it matter how god the team was? Of course he was an all star. He averaged 22 and 9, and a spot was freed up with Jermaine O'Neal out and with not alot of good power forwards in the east. He would have made it anyway over Sheed though. Wow, you didnt even prove your points at all. This was just a stupid post. What was he supposed to do? The Raptors flat out sucked last year. Our pg was a balll hog in Mike James, and we had the worst defense in the League.You cant say that Bosh will never reach superstar level because his team was not good so far in his career. That's stupid. He never had talent around him, and you cannot blame it on his leadership at all. He's freaking 22 man. He's not going to be a great locker room guy from the get go. He has shown that he can lead this team.I'll give you a couple instances. Against the Celtics he was screaming at TJ for the ball with us being up be only 2 with maybe a minute left. He got the ball, and sunk a fade away jumper to put us up by four. That's leadership to me. Later on in this game We were up by 3 with about 20 seconds left. We had to inbound the ball. The inbounder found Bosh. The defender jumped up in the air to potentially challenge a shot, but Bosh stood his ground, and took in the foul. 4 point game, and then we went on to seal it. That's leadership to me. Andrea Bargnani was getting owned on the boards against Golden State. Chris Bosh gave him a scolding of a life time to get him on task, and minutes later, he came up and gave him a high five, talked to him, and it was over. That's leadership to me. We were down by 1 against the 76ers. Bosh loses the ball, gathers it with 3 seconds left ont he clock. Pulls up for a 3 and makes it. We're up by 2. Andre Iguodala misses a 3, and we win the game. That's leadership to me. Chris Bosh is a leader to me..I agree his defense needs to be better, but what else does he want to change? He's a great rebounder, great mid range shooter, he's quick, athletic, can beat anyone on the dribble, solid post game, great at getting to the stripes. After 3 years, ain't nothing wrong with his game..Chris has the same qualities TMac has? WTF is that? Tmac is a SF, Bosh is a PF. Tmac is a 3pt shooter, is Bosh? They play totally different games also. Tell me the truth here. Have you ever seen Chris play? Please dont post this dumb sh*t without backing up your points. This was just ridiculous, man. Tell me again, why is Chris overrated? Please tell me. I want to prove you wrong some more.Raptorfan, we got this sucka, lol.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz76 @ Dec 3 2006, 01:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Raptorsfan, Have you ever heard of Pau Gasol? His teammates in the frontcourt was Jake Tsakalidas and Lorenzen Wright. Who was the second leading scorer after Pau? Mike Miller, yeah the guy off the bench. And you mentioned Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant, all together those two equal one MVP awards, 5 Finals appearances and 3 titles(all to Kobe). So dont even try to compare their situation with Boshs. And Bosh is a big man. Most big men with those stats dont get the 1st overall pick. Im getting more and more of a non-stat kindve guy. Just cause Bosh is getting 12 rebounds doesn't mean hes a supreme player. Hes overrated because he seems like a franchise player, but he hasnt proven it yet.</div>Thanks for contradicting yourself Austingriz, Pau Gasol never averaged stats like Bosh in his career. Pau Gasol did have help at times, how about Shane Battier last year? He averaged 10 and 5, in the frontcourt. Thats 5 times more than any other frontcourt player Bosh had, in both categories. Second you said he puts up great numbers buts not a team leader, how is that, if kobe and allen are the same thing? and did you know Bosh averaged more points than KG last year? They play similar styles, and yet KG is the leader on the timberwolves?The grizz had 7 players averaging double figures last year, while the raptors had 3, Bosh, James, and Peterson, who didnt play in the post anyways. And right now, Bosh is averaging just about as much as KG, and they're both in the same kind of situation considering the teams they are in, yet Bosh is not the leader? I beg to differ.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Dec 3 2006, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>A name that hasnt been mentioned is "Brad Miller". He has always been a player that has been considered a top 3-6 center in the NBA, and this year he is averaging 7 ppg and 7 rpg. He is a soft center who doesn't play good defense, and relies to much on his outside game which isnt that great.And Noah, why is Tim Duncan overrated? A player that has brought 3 championships to San Antonio, 2 MVP's, he has led his team to the playoffs EVERY year he has been in the league (and they have almost always gotten past the first round....maybe one year where they didnt), he has lead them to a couple 60 win seasons, and more 55+ win seasons than you could imagine. He gets you 20 and 10 a night, with great defense, leadership, and experience. Against the Mavs in the playoffs last year, he put up I think what was 35+ a night with over 12+ rebounds. How in the hell is that overrated?</div>Brad Miller is UNDERrated. His numbers are down because he just came back from a foot injury. He isn't as "soft" as you think, he gets his nose dirty on the glass. He's the best passing center I've seen in this league since Vlade Divac, he can hit mid-range jumpers with consistancy, he can drop back to hit some 3's if need be, and he is a hard worker. I love Big Bad Brad (haha, just thought of that one. You like?)And don't Noah has told me a couple times that he doesn't even have a reason for not liking Duncan. He "just doesn't."
Brad Miller is for sure not underrated. And yes, he is weaker than the average center. For me, the fact that he likes to hang on the perimeter more than in the block were most centers should be, makes me think of him less. He is a pretty big guy, but he is shying away from contact. He isnt a good shot blocker, and isnt a good defender period. He may be a good passer, but that aspect of his game sure as hell isnt underrated. Everybody considers him the best passing big man in the game.And no, I HATE the nickname! :closedeyes: jk
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Dec 3 2006, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thanks for contradicting yourself Austingriz, Pau Gasol never averaged stats like Bosh in his career. Pau Gasol did have help at times, how about Shane Battier last year? He averaged 10 and 5, in the frontcourt. Thats 5 times more than any other frontcourt player Bosh had, in both categories. Second you said he puts up great numbers buts not a team leader, how is that, if kobe and allen are the same thing? and did you know Bosh averaged more points than KG last year? They play similar styles, and yet KG is the leader on the timberwolves?The grizz had 7 players averaging double figures last year, while the raptors had 3, Bosh, James, and Peterson, who didnt play in the post anyways. And right now, Bosh is averaging just about as much as KG, and they're both in the same kind of situation considering the teams they are in, yet Bosh is not the leader? I beg to differ.</div>LMAO!!!! You and CB4 are basing everything off numbers from NBA.com. Ive watched f*cking Bosh play, and he just doesn't play like a franchise player. If you watch a player enough, you can eventually tell if hes a franchise player or not. Just to prove why stats arent everything, Rick Davis averaged 20ppg last season, same amount as many superstars, but hes not a superstar. Why? Because when you watch him you can tell hes not a superstar just by his shot selection amd his style. Bosh hasnt proven to be a franchise player, Dwight Howard has(21), LeBron James has(22) Chris Paul has(22 I think, not sure). Age dont mean sh*t, either your a franchise playe or not, its not something you can really learn to be. Bosh hasnt proven it yet, and I dont care about the the damn stats you throw at me, I wont be convinced until Bosh can prove it. Oh and do you know why so many grizzlies averaged double figures? PAU GASOL!!!! 5 assist per game(and his assist are real assist, he sets players up.seen it). Bosh is not doing that for the Raptors. And Shane Battier is a SF, you only mentioned C and PF help, which Battier started at SF.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Dec 3 2006, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>We were down by 1 against the 76ers. Bosh loses the ball, gathers it with 3 seconds left ont he clock. Pulls up for a 3 and makes it. We're up by 2. Andre Iguodala misses a 3, and we win the game. That's leadership to me.</div>That's not leadership... that's called a lucky shot. :winkglasses: But, I agree with all your other examples... Chris Bosh is a leader, and his leadership skills will definitely improve as he continues to grow and mature as a player. Like you said, it's easy to forget that he is only 22 years old.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz76 @ Dec 3 2006, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>LMAO!!!! You and CB4 are basing everything off numbers from NBA.com. Ive watched f*cking Bosh play, and he just doesn't play like a franchise player.</div>How do you know what a franchise player plays like? Chris Bosh may play an unorthodox style compared to what you see as "franchise player." Plus, you can't use the Pau Gasol example against Bosh. CB4 is better than Gasol.
I would take Gasol over CB4. Gasol plays better defense and took a poor team last year and got them to the 5th seed. Look how bad they are this year without Gasol.
Stats stats stats, wow, im a official hater on stats. LOL. Bosh is not better than Gasol just cause of "stats". And you can tell if a player is a franchise player is he changes the franchise, hense the name "franchise player"
Elton Brand? Up until this season, he has always been a guy to give you 20 and 10 a night. For about 5 seasons, he has done that. Last season, he did even better putting up around 25 and 11, AND leading his team to a great record and almost beating the Suns in the playoffs. Up until last season, he has never had the support to lead his team to the playoffs. He is a good scorer, a good rebounder on both ends, he is a smart player and a leader, he is a pretty good defender, and has a great mid range game on offense as well. Overrated? I think not.....Kevin Garnett? If you are looking at how much success he has had in his career, I can somewhat agree with you because he has underachieved. But he is a great basketball player. He is great on the low block on offense, one of the best rebounders in the game, a VERY solid defender, and a good teammate and person. His game isnt underrated, but I question his leadership at times.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz76 @ Dec 3 2006, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>LMAO!!!! You and CB4 are basing everything off numbers from NBA.com. Ive watched f*cking Bosh play, and he just doesn't play like a franchise player. If you watch a player enough, you can eventually tell if hes a franchise player or not. Just to prove why stats arent everything, Rick Davis averaged 20ppg last season, same amount as many superstars, but hes not a superstar. Why? Because when you watch him you can tell hes not a superstar just by his shot selection amd his style. Bosh hasnt proven to be a franchise player, Dwight Howard has(21), LeBron James has(22) Chris Paul has(22 I think, not sure). Age dont mean sh*t, either your a franchise playe or not, its not something you can really learn to be. Bosh hasnt proven it yet, and I dont care about the the damn stats you throw at me, I wont be convinced until Bosh can prove it. Oh and do you know why so many grizzlies averaged double figures? PAU GASOL!!!! 5 assist per game(and his assist are real assist, he sets players up.seen it). Bosh is not doing that for the Raptors. And Shane Battier is a SF, you only mentioned C and PF help, which Battier started at SF.</div>Wrong I said, a SF that plays in the post, hence the name Shane Battier, I said, Mo pete didnt contribute in the frontcourt, because he plays like Kyle Korver, around the perimeter. Shane on the other hand plays around the basket, as you can see his rebound total explains it.Where did age come into this? Your age doesn't matter I dont know how that came into the conversation. Second, if we are talking about age, CB4 has been in the league for 3 years now, this is his 4th, hes made more of a differance than Gasol whos been in the nba for five, and this being his six.You say Bosh is not a leader because his team is not in the playoffs. Like I said before, Why isnt AI's team in the playoffs? because there is no such thing as a one man team, even Kobe on of the best players of all time couldnt do it, (yes his team made the playoffs, but without a legit 2nd scorer like Shaq), he moved down in the standings. When AI made it into the finals, he had a legimate second scoring options, so did Dallas, so did Miami, a franchise player is the best on the team, who does the most work, who you rely on, the raptors rely on Chris Bosh first off, then Mo Pete, then TJ, which is why the Raptors arent off to a 1-15 start this season, look at Miami and how they faultered, no Shaq, no help for Wade, they're not as dominant as before. Yet you consider Wade as the franchise player on the Miami Heat.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Dec 3 2006, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where did age come into this? Your age doesn't matter I dont know how that came into the conversation. Second, if we are talking about age, CB4 has been in the league for 3 years now, this is his 4th, hes made more of a differance than Gasol whos been in the nba for five, and this being his six.</div>Not trying to take sides on whose better between Bosh and Gasol, but care to elaborate and explain why you feel that way?<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You say Bosh is not a leader because his team is not in the playoffs. Like I said before, Why isnt AI's team in the playoffs? because there is no such thing as a one man team, even Kobe on of the best players of all time couldnt do it, (yes his team made the playoffs, but without a legit 2nd scorer like Shaq), he moved down in the standings. When AI made it into the finals, he had a legimate second scoring options, so did Dallas, so did Miami, a franchise player is the best on the team, who does the most work, who you rely on, the raptors rely on Chris Bosh first off, then Mo Pete, then TJ, which is why the Raptors arent off to a 1-15 start this season, look at Miami and how they faultered, no Shaq, no help for Wade, they're not as dominant as before. Yet you consider Wade as the franchise player on the Miami Heat.</div>First, please tell me who was Iverson's "legitimate second scoring option" in the 2001 Finals season, because he did not have one.Second, a franchise player is not "the best player on the team." A franchise player is very rare... its the player that can legitimately be the face of your franchise, and change the direction of the franchise. Is Bosh a franchise player? I'm not 100% sure. He possesses some of the qualities, but it is hard for me to definitively call him a franchise player at this point in time. He certainly has the potential to be Toronto's franchise player, but the Raptors are in a transition right now. It remains to be seen how far Bosh can take them, and that will come with time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Where did age come into this? Your age doesn't matter I dont know how that came into the conversation. Second, if we are talking about age, CB4 has been in the league for 3 years now, this is his 4th, hes made more of a differance than Gasol whos been in the nba for five, and this being his six.</div>Sorry, let me rephrase that, By the time Gasol had been 3 year into the nba, yes the grizz did make it into the playoffs, but he had stromile swift, bonzi wells, a growing battier and Mike Miller along side him. He wasnt also playing like a "franchise player" like you claim Bosh is lacking, he was growing into the spot, but I dont think was the only leader on that team. He did however step it up in the playoffs, in which he averaged 21 points, I will give him credit for that. I say that Bosh accomplished more, because first of his numbers were similar, but he made it by himself, had to create it for himself, yes he wasnt the leading scorer, but was putting in alot of effort, and with Carter leaving, he stepped it up and began to embrace the leader role, and was beginning to accept that he was the future.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigMo763 @ Dec 3 2006, 10:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Not trying to take sides on whose better between Bosh and Gasol, but care to elaborate and explain why you feel that way?First, please tell me who was Iverson's "legitimate second scoring option" in the 2001 Finals season, because he did not have one.Second, a franchise player is not "the best player on the team." A franchise player is very rare... its the player that can legitimately be the face of your franchise, and change the direction of the franchise. Is Bosh a franchise player? I'm not 100% sure. He possesses some of the qualities, but it is hard for me to definitively call him a franchise player at this point in time. He certainly has the potential to be Toronto's franchise player, but the Raptors are in a transition right now. It remains to be seen how far Bosh can take them, and that will come with time.</div>I didnt say a franchise player was the "best on the team" only I said a franchise player is the best on the team, who does the most work, who you rely on, I agree you can't call him a franchise player right now. But every team has a leader, whos the Raptors leader then? Isnt that what makes up a franchise player? And just because Bosh doesn't drop 30 a game, or score every other time down the stretch, doesn't mean he isnt a franchise player. He does the little things, (offensive rebounds, offensive putbacks, free throws) and the big things (high scoring, major rebounder, solid defensive presence) that make him a valuable assest to a team. If the raptors claim to be building a team around Bosh, how isnt he the franchise player?
