<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Dec 3 2006, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree with the statement that Battier is overrated. He is a good defender and not a great one. Dirk embarrassed him in the first round of the playoffs last year.</div>Thats exactly what convinced me.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>OK, why even say Marko Jaric? He isn't a top 5 player on that team, let alone 3rd option.</div>I was pointing out how bad Timberwolves were last year. There top two other players were probably Rick Davis/Wally and ...I really dont know the 2nd, but Jaric can be far from it(which is a bad thing)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Dec 4 2006, 12:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree with the statement that Battier is overrated. He is a good defender and not a great one. Dirk embarrassed him in the first round of the playoffs last year.</div>Oh come on. First of all, Battier isn't inclined to guard big men as well as wings. Second of all, nobody can stop Dirk when he has it going. It's damn near impossible to stop a 7 footer with a rainbow shot like that. You can't knock on Battier's defense because he doesn't guard Dirk Nowitzki well.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz76 @ Dec 4 2006, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I was pointing out how bad Timberwolves were last year. There top two other players were probably Rick Davis/Wally and ...I really dont know the 2nd, but Jaric can be far from it(which is a bad thing)</div>Mark BlountEddie GriffinRashad McCantsMarcus BanksAll better than Marko Jaric last year.
Okay, Mccants was out alot. Marcus didnt come over till the Wally trade. But even with Mark Blount,Eddie Griffin,Rashad McCants,and Marcus Banks being eligible of being the 3rd best player on a team isnt good. I dont quite know wut your arguing Celticballa, all im saying it the Wolves suck ass. I guess you argueing whos the 3rd best player or something...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz76 @ Dec 4 2006, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Okay, Mccants was out alot. Marcus didnt come over till the Wally trade. But even with Mark Blount,Eddie Griffin,Rashad McCants,and Marcus Banks being eligible of being the 3rd best player on a team isnt good. I dont quite know wut your arguing Celticballa, all im saying it the Wolves suck ass. I guess you argueing whos the 3rd best player or something...</div>That's OBVIOUSLY what I'm arguing haha. You mentioned him like he was the 3rd option in the original post, so I listed players who are better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Dec 4 2006, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Elton Brand? Up until this season, he has always been a guy to give you 20 and 10 a night. For about 5 seasons, he has done that. Last season, he did even better putting up around 25 and 11, AND leading his team to a great record and almost beating the Suns in the playoffs. Up until last season, he has never had the support to lead his team to the playoffs. He is a good scorer, a good rebounder on both ends, he is a smart player and a leader, he is a pretty good defender, and has a great mid range game on offense as well. Overrated? I think not.....Kevin Garnett? If you are looking at how much success he has had in his career, I can somewhat agree with you because he has underachieved. But he is a great basketball player. He is great on the low block on offense, one of the best rebounders in the game, a VERY solid defender, and a good teammate and person. His game isnt underrated, but I question his leadership at times.</div>KG is the definition of an underachiever. Elton brand hadn't smelt the playoffs before having a stacked team around him. Tim duncan led an average team to a championship. Elton brand with a better team took them where? To a 2nd round exit.1 season doesn't define a career. These guys have been losers for almost all of their careers. Great players overcome it. Elton couldn't untill his team was stacked.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 4 2006, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>KG is the definition of an underachiever. Elton brand hadn't smelt the playoffs before having a stacked team around him. Tim duncan led an average team to a championship. Elton brand with a better team took them where? To a 2nd round exit.1 season doesn't define a career. These guys have been losers for almost all of their careers. Great players overcome it. Elton couldn't untill his team was stacked.</div>You consider an old Cassell, Mobely, and an injured Corey Maggette, with a young center a STACKED team? I strongly beg to differ. Are you really calling Elton Brand a "loser?" Brand is an incredible player, and he's been playing great ball his entire career (he's been putting up 20/10 his whole career). He's a great guy, a great teammate, a very hard worker, and he may have lost before but he had terrible teams! He came into the league with the Bulls (terrible at the time). Then he went to the Clippers, who have been a piss-poor franchise for years until a couple years ago.And I know, I know... he had Odom, Miller, Q-Rich, D-Miles, and Kandi-Man. Well, Kandi-Man and Miles huge busts and they were very young, Odom was young and coming off weed problems. Richardson always has been a chucker. Miller was good. They were talented, but very young and inconsistant (hey, kind of reminds me of the Celtics!).Brand may have been on losing teams, but it surely wasn't his fault. Paul Pierce isn't a "loser" even though he hasn't won lately. Same with Iverson. Same with Garnett. They don't have a good supporting cast, you can't expect them to win 45 games by themselves.No great player can win anything without good teammates that know their role.
What does Sam being old have to do with anything? The "old cassel" turned the timberwolves into contenders. It's not wonder that when Casell decided he didn't want to give 100% with the timberwolves, they went back to being a crappy franchise. Without Casell, the clippers would have had the to start Shaun livingston. Beleive me, the clippers would have flopped with livingston. Shaun's inexperience and inconsistency would have hurt the clippers, sending them to the lottery. Clippers needed a real floor general, a guy who could make big shots. Shaun isn't any of them, he infact a choker and he has shown this numerous times. A floor general, is underrated. There are only a few of them in the league. The old cassell was the difference between a 2nd round team and a lottery team. The clippers needed a player like cassell.Also, cassell is huge in the lockeroom. He is jut a great leader and without him they'd have to start Shaun livingston.The clippers were stackedLet's seeGreat leader at the 1, clutch player, great player. Huge impact on the team15 ppg threat at the 2, 3 point threat. Has shown in his career without elton brand to be a 15+ scorer.At the 3, a great defensive player. At the 4, a 2 way allstarAt the 5, a double double center. Not many of them in the league.That is a stacked starting lineup. The bench wasn't great, but the starting lineup was one of the best in the league. The team was stacked.I won't even go into kg and how much he has failed in his career.edit: Paul pierce is a loser. So is Garnett. Players can make the playoffs on their own. Tmac did. Kobe was single handedly putting in the lakers into the playoff race with a second option averaging 13 points for half of the year.
[quote name='BrewCityBuck' post='214565' date='Dec 2 2006, 11:49 PM']If you don't agree with me, give me an argument. The Pistons had a very good all-around defensive unit, saying it was because of Ben Wallace is silly, he was a part. Rasheed Wallace is as good a post defender as anyone. Why don't you give an argument and back up your opinions, anyone can make a random list.[/quote]Raptorsfan made a credible statement, he just didn't elaborate on that statement. I know it's 15 games into the season or so, but last year the team was giving up only about 90.2 points per game, playing the same up tempo style of play that the Pistons are playing this season. So far this season the Pistons are averaging 95.6 points per game, and about 4 to 5 more points per game than last year. They also do not appear to be the same team, with the same defensive toughness they have had in the past with Ben Wallace there.When Ben Wallace was in Detroit, he was the main part of that defense. There was a couple of reasons why he was big for that defense, centered around his ability to block shots and cause the Pistons defenders to be able to overplay a bit on defense. He was the anchor for that defense. Except D-Wade, no other perimeter players shot a good percentage on the Pistons, and Ben Wallace was a huge reason for that with his shot blocking and shot altering. Another thing that was huge for this team, was that he could guard big men like Shaq all by himself, allowing his teamates to play one on one defense against everyone else on the team. That is why they have been successful against Shaq teams in the past, starting with the Lakers in the finals when they didn't shut down Shaq, and Kobe got his kind of, but no one else on the team was able to score because they was not getting open shots. Same with the Heat two years ago in the playoffs. [quote name='austingriz76' post='214964' date='Dec 3 2006, 05:17 PM']LMAO!!!! You and CB4 are basing everything off numbers from NBA.com. Ive watched f*cking Bosh play, and he just doesn't play like a franchise player. If you watch a player enough, you can eventually tell if hes a franchise player or not. Just to prove why stats arent everything, Rick Davis averaged 20ppg last season, same amount as many superstars, but hes not a superstar. Why? Because when you watch him you can tell hes not a superstar just by his shot selection amd his style. Bosh hasnt proven to be a franchise player, Dwight Howard has(21), LeBron James has(22) Chris Paul has(22 I think, not sure). Age dont mean sh*t, either your a franchise playe or not, its not something you can really learn to be. Bosh hasnt proven it yet, and I dont care about the the damn stats you throw at me, I wont be convinced until Bosh can prove it. Oh and do you know why so many grizzlies averaged double figures? PAU GASOL!!!! 5 assist per game(and his assist are real assist, he sets players up.seen it). Bosh is not doing that for the Raptors. And Shane Battier is a SF, you only mentioned C and PF help, which Battier started at SF.[/quote][quote name='austingriz76' post='215320' date='Dec 3 2006, 10:26 PM']Do u have any idea how much better Memphis would be with a Mo Pete or Mike James...even if he was a ballhog....he would help more than Mike Miller.[/quote]To use what you used just a paragraph above, stop looking at stats. Mike James was a chemistry killer last year, and was not a good second option, even if he did average 20 points per game last year. Obviously Memphis would not be much better, because look at the Timberwolves this year with James there. If the T'wolves with KG are not better, what makes you think he will make Pau Gasol better, who is not the player KG is.Furthermore, that Memphis team last season with Gasol was much better than the Raptors. Gasol had a much better team defense around him, with someone on the outside that played good defense, evidenced by the fact that they gave up only 88.5 points per game. Say what you will, but Battier played good defense, and was a jack of all trades for Memphis last year. He was a huge part of that team defense. Eddie Jones played decent defense last year. [quote name='mavsfan1000' post='215088' date='Dec 3 2006, 07:59 PM']I would take Gasol over CB4. Gasol plays better defense and took a poor team last year and got them to the 5th seed. Look how bad they are this year without Gasol.[/quote]Sure, this team is not looking good this year, but this is a different team this year than was playing last year. They are missing Battier, a guy that played tough defense on the outside against everyone he faced. Eddie Jones has only played in six games so far this season, after being a main starter last season. Plus last season Miller was playing off the bench. Having that kind of scoring production and spark off the bench will do alot for a team, as opposed to this season having it in the starting lineup. They also had Bobby Jackson, who was on the team, and a huge spark for this team. This year they have not had Eddie Jones healthy, Shane Battier in the lineup, and Bobby Jackson, plus Miller is starting this season instead of being a sixth man. [quote name='mavsfan1000' post='215487' date='Dec 4 2006, 12:47 AM']I agree with the statement that Battier is overrated. He is a good defender and not a great one. Dirk embarrassed him in the first round of the playoffs last year.[/quote]Last year up until the finals, Dirk was taking on everyone and doing that. It's hard to stop a seven footer, that was putting the ball on the ground and taking it to the rim as much as he was last year in the finals, plus had that shot that everyone knows is dangerous. Bruce Bowen and Shawn Marion, both good defenders couldn't stop him either, so that's not a reason to bash Battier.
]other thing that was huge for this team, was that he could guard big men like Shaq all by himself, allowing his teamates to play one on one defense against everyone else on the team. Valo, Ben wallace cannot guard shaq. Shaq destoyed him in the 2004 finals and against last season owned him. The reason why the pistons single covered shaq in 2004 was because they knew shaq couldnt win the series alone. They knew if they made kobe useless and the role players irrevelant then Shaq's huge numbers would mean absolutely nothing. And it worked. The only game the lakers came close to winning was game 2 and that is when kobe exploded. Kobe was shutdown in the series, further proving who really was the mvp of the team.Ben wallace was just a tool used by Larry brown. He is the real genius, the best defensive coach of all time. Ben used to be a superb team defender but even that started to regressed after he won the ring.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 4 2006, 07:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>]other thing that was huge for this team, was that he could guard big men like Shaq all by himself, allowing his teamates to play one on one defense against everyone else on the team. Valo, Ben wallace cannot guard shaq. Shaq destoyed him in the 2004 finals and against last season owned him. The reason why the pistons single covered shaq in 2004 was because they knew shaq couldnt win the series alone. They knew if they made kobe useless and the role players irrevelant then Shaq's huge numbers would mean absolutely nothing. And it worked. The only game the lakers came close to winning was game 2 and that is when kobe exploded. Kobe was shutdown in the series, further proving who really was the mvp of the team.Ben wallace was just a tool used by Larry brown. He is the real genius, the best defensive coach of all time. Ben used to be a superb team defender but even that started to regressed after he won the ring.</div>In the 2004 finals, Shaq might have gotten pretty good stats on Ben Wallace, but Wallace kept him from completely going off like he had in the previous set of finals. Wallace being able to somewhat contain Shaq by himself, and keep Shaq from posting 31 points per game like he had in the other finals, was a huge part to that defense, and why that team won that series. Wallace being able to do that, caused the team not to double Shaq, and allowed everyone else to be able to guard their man and no one else scored hardly at all past Him and Kobe. That is a huge reason for the Pistons winning that series.Larry Brown did not make Ben Wallace any better of a defender, he was a good defensive player in Orlando. Just look at last year, the team still kept everyone else to 90.2 points per game. This year the team is giving up 95.6 points per game, that is a five point, nearly six point increase in points, and they was playing the same style last year that they are playing this year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 4 2006, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What does Sam being old have to do with anything? The "old cassel" turned the timberwolves into contenders. It's not wonder that when Casell decided he didn't want to give 100% with the timberwolves, they went back to being a crappy franchise. Without Casell, the clippers would have had the to start Shaun livingston. Beleive me, the clippers would have flopped with livingston. Shaun's inexperience and inconsistency would have hurt the clippers, sending them to the lottery. Clippers needed a real floor general, a guy who could make big shots. Shaun isn't any of them, he infact a choker and he has shown this numerous times. A floor general, is underrated. There are only a few of them in the league. The old cassell was the difference between a 2nd round team and a lottery team. The clippers needed a player like cassell.Also, cassell is huge in the lockeroom. He is jut a great leader and without him they'd have to start Shaun livingston.The clippers were stackedLet's seeGreat leader at the 1, clutch player, great player. Huge impact on the team15 ppg threat at the 2, 3 point threat. Has shown in his career without elton brand to be a 15+ scorer.At the 3, a great defensive player. At the 4, a 2 way allstarAt the 5, a double double center. Not many of them in the league.That is a stacked starting lineup. The bench wasn't great, but the starting lineup was one of the best in the league. The team was stacked.I won't even go into kg and how much he has failed in his career.edit: Paul pierce is a loser. So is Garnett. Players can make the playoffs on their own. Tmac did. Kobe was single handedly putting in the lakers into the playoff race with a second option averaging 13 points for half of the year.</div>I completely disagree, the one year that a decent team was assembled around Elton Brand the Clippers went to the second round of the playoffs. You can say that Sam Cassell was the difference, and your right he was a huge part of that team, but they rode on the backs of Elton Brand. Take Brand off the Clippers, and their consistent low post scorer, best rebounder, and anchor to the defense is gone. He by far is not overrated, I don't even see where you can get off saying something like that. Elton Brand has great moves in the block with the ball, moves without the ball around the basket well. Brand developed a very nice mid range shot so that teams have to guard him if he gets the ball just a little bit away from the basket. He can block shots, and he plays rather good defense. Brand is an outstanding rebounder, and plays like a monster every game. Without him, the Clippers are a lottery team, make no mistakes about it. Furthermore, did anyone else see him bust Dwight Howards ass last night? He ate Howard's lunch yesterday, and showed the Howard still has much to learn.
T-Mac is starting to get really overrated. His play has been declining since 04-05. His potential talent is absurd, he had some ridiculous seasons with Orland. He can shoot pass and rebound but his numbers have been dropping off the past few years. But his decision making definately isn't great, his shooting has been steadlily dropping off, and injuries have been nagging him as of late. Also his teams never do that great.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 3 2006, 11:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'></div>hey melo, mind if I use your sig idea on another site?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 4 2006, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>In the 2004 finals, Shaq might have gotten pretty good stats on Ben Wallace, but Wallace kept him from completely going off like he had in the previous set of finals. Wallace being able to somewhat contain Shaq by himself, and keep Shaq from posting 31 points per game like he had in the other finals, was a huge part to that defense, and why that team won that series. Wallace being able to do that, caused the team not to double Shaq, and allowed everyone else to be able to guard their man and no one else scored hardly at all past Him and Kobe. That is a huge reason for the Pistons winning that series.Larry Brown did not make Ben Wallace any better of a defender, he was a good defensive player in Orlando. Just look at last year, the team still kept everyone else to 90.2 points per game. This year the team is giving up 95.6 points per game, that is a five point, nearly six point increase in points, and they was playing the same style last year that they are playing this year.</div>Shaq was declining. It had nothing to do with Ben wallace's Defense. Anyone who watched the series will tell you that shaq destroyed ben wallace. There was no need to double ben wallace because if they made the role players and kobe useless the series would end quickly.Larry brown didn't make Ben wallace a better defender. He made the team a better defensive team. I have never seen such defense in my life and it isnt because of the players.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 4 2006, 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I completely disagree, the one year that a decent team was assembled around Elton Brand the Clippers went to the second round of the playoffs. You can say that Sam Cassell was the difference, and your right he was a huge part of that team, but they rode on the backs of Elton Brand. Take Brand off the Clippers, and their consistent low post scorer, best rebounder, and anchor to the defense is gone. He by far is not overrated, I don't even see where you can get off saying something like that. Elton Brand has great moves in the block with the ball, moves without the ball around the basket well. Brand developed a very nice mid range shot so that teams have to guard him if he gets the ball just a little bit away from the basket. He can block shots, and he plays rather good defense. Brand is an outstanding rebounder, and plays like a monster every game. Without him, the Clippers are a lottery team, make no mistakes about it. Furthermore, did anyone else see him bust Dwight Howards ass last night? He ate Howard's lunch yesterday, and showed the Howard still has much to learn.</div>You throw off elton brand, the team heads to the lottery. Same with cassell. It's just that no-one gives sam any credit. It's all "elton this, and elton that" when elton was a loser his whole career. I'm sorry but if he was a genuine star, he'd be able to carry his team somewhere in previous years.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 4 2006, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq was declining. It had nothing to do with Ben wallace's Defense. Anyone who watched the series will tell you that shaq destroyed ben wallace. There was no need to double ben wallace because if they made the role players and kobe useless the series would end quickly.Larry brown didn't make Ben wallace a better defender. He made the team a better defensive team. I have never seen such defense in my life and it isnt because of the players.</div>You can say Shaq was declining all you want, I still saw that he has done better against Shaq than anyother player has done. Any time he has played a team Shaq was on, they have not had to double Shaq, because Ben Wallace does a better job on Shaq than anyone else in the league. He doesn't stop Shaq by any means, but he gives Shaq a hard time by himself without needing others to double team people. That team was a good defensive team the year before, when Rick Carlisle was the coach. They just didn't have another good defensive player in Rasheed Wallace until that year when Larry Brown was there. It was not all because of Larry Brown that the Pistons played good defense, it was the players playing. They was completely to do with that being a good defensive team.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 4 2006, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You throw off elton brand, the team heads to the lottery. Same with cassell. It's just that no-one gives sam any credit. It's all "elton this, and elton that" when elton was a loser his whole career. I'm sorry but if he was a genuine star, he'd be able to carry his team somewhere in previous years.</div>Without Shaq, the Lakers haven't made it past the first round, does that make Kobe Bryant any less of a star? No, because he's still one of the best players in the league, the same with Elton Brand. In the past, Brand has had no one on his team that was consistent and played well every game. Elton Brand can't help that he had bad players on his team before last season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 5 2006, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You can say Shaq was declining all you want, I still saw that he has done better against Shaq than anyother player has done. Any time he has played a team Shaq, they have not had to double Shaq, because Ben Wallace does a better job on Shaq than anyone else in the league. He doesn't stop Shaq by any means, but he gives Shaq a hard time by himself without needing others to double team people. That team was a good defensive team the year before, when Rick Carlisle was the coach. They just didn't have another good defensive player in Rasheed Wallace until that year when Larry Brown was there. It was not all because of Larry Brown that the Pistons played good defense, it was the players playing. They was completely</div>Shaq was declining. He hadn't dominated a playoff series for over a year. That alone with his declinig numbers were evidence of shaq going down. He was around 370 lb's, played no defense and the dominance wasn't there anymore. No-one would are single cover shaq in his prime. But they did because the shaq of 2004 wasn't going to win the lakers the series. The stragety was to shut down everyone but shaq and get shaq is. Despite kobe shooting more than shaq, shaq managed to average 27-11. Now that's numbers. Ben wallace has never been able to slow down shaq. It isn't even about numbers, even watch last year's playoffs. Shaq destroyed ben. It's no wonder shaq had his best series of the 2004 against detroit. Ben might hustle and try more but again, there's no substance there.The team before was a good defensive team. But, no other defensive schemes disfigured the triangle like it it. Also, I have never seen kobe bryant in my life look useless. They shut down everyone and I mean everyone besides shaq. Also, that year they had like 10 straight games where they held their team to 70 points and in the playoffs held the pacers to 2 straight 60 point games. It's the best defense I've ever seen.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Without Shaq, the Lakers haven't made it past the first round, does that make Kobe Bryant any less of a star? No, because he's still one of the best players in the league, the same with Elton Brand. In the past, Brand has had no one on his team that was consistent and played well every game. Elton Brand can't help that he had bad players on his team before last season.</div>But kobe has only been the leader of this team for 3 seasons. These guys are career losers, elton brand hadn't smelt the playoffs untill last season and KG hadn't been to the playoffs for 2 straight seasons.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 4 2006, 05:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq was declining. He hadn't dominated a playoff series for over a year. That alone with his declinig numbers were evidence of shaq going down. He was around 370 lb's, played no defense and the dominance wasn't there anymore. No-one would are single cover shaq in his prime. But they did because the shaq of 2004 wasn't going to win the lakers the series. The stragety was to shut down everyone but shaq and get shaq is. Despite kobe shooting more than shaq, shaq managed to average 27-11. Now that's numbers. Ben wallace has never been able to slow down shaq. It isn't even about numbers, even watch last year's playoffs. Shaq destroyed ben. It's no wonder shaq had his best series of the 2004 against detroit. Ben might hustle and try more but again, there's no substance there.The team before was a good defensive team. But, no other defensive schemes disfigured the triangle like it it. Also, I have never seen kobe bryant in my life look useless. They shut down everyone and I mean everyone besides shaq. Also, that year they had like 10 straight games where they held their team to 70 points and in the playoffs held the pacers to 2 straight 60 point games. It's the best defense I've ever seen.But kobe has only been the leader of this team for 3 seasons. These guys are career losers, elton brand hadn't smelt the playoffs untill last season and KG hadn't been to the playoffs for 2 straight seasons.</div>Paragraph by paragraph.1. Alright you got me there, can't really argue, was just seeing how far I could debate you on it.2. That defense was not all because of Larry Brown, he does not make a defense. The players are the ones playing the defense and running on the court. The main part of that defense was Ben Wallace and his shot blocking ability down low. He caused the other teams players to have to adjust their shots in the paint, and down low more than any other player in the league did. The entire team defense rotated around that sole ability of his.3. KG had been to the playoffs every year the two before these last two, with the exception of his rookie season. KG was the driving force on everyone of those Minnesota teams that made the playoffs. It just so happens his team around him was never good enough for him to make it past the first round. Same with the Clippers, Elton Brand is the driving force on the Clippers. Without Elton Brand this team goes nowhere, he has a bigger impact on this team than anyone else on the entire team has. Without Sam Cassell, they still have a good team, with alot of talent on it. Shaun Livingston in my view can step up and be a very good point guard on the team, Daniel Ewing will do good off the bench. If Elton Brand goes down, you will get a much bigger drop off, than if Sam Cassell go's off the team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 5 2006, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Paragraph by paragraph.1. Alright you got me there, can't really argue, was just seeing how far I could debate you on it.2. That defense was not all because of Larry Brown, he does not make a defense. The players are the ones playing the defense and running on the court. The main part of that defense was Ben Wallace and his shot blocking ability down low. He caused the other teams players to have to adjust their shots in the paint, and down low more than any other player in the league did. The entire team defense rotated around that sole ability of his.3. KG had been to the playoffs every year the two before these last two, with the exception of his rookie season. KG was the driving force on everyone of those Minnesota teams that made the playoffs. It just so happens his team around him was never good enough for him to make it past the first round. Same with the Clippers, Elton Brand is the driving force on the Clippers. Without Elton Brand this team goes nowhere, he has a bigger impact on this team than anyone else on the entire team has. Without Sam Cassell, they still have a good team, with alot of talent on it. Shaun Livingston in my view can step up and be a very good point guard on the team, Daniel Ewing will do good off the bench. If Elton Brand goes down, you will get a much bigger drop off, than if Sam Cassell go's off the team.</div>No where did I say Elton wasn't more important. It's just that elton gets all the hype for turning the clippers around. Sam had a huge impact on the clippers and imo, he should props for also turning the team around. Example, people thought elton brand was the mvp for a while. That is why I thought he was overrated.Also, detroit has 1 outstanding defender and 3 other good defenders. But 10 straight games keeping their opposition under 70? That's freaking amazing. I have never seen a defensive system make the triangle disfunctional. Detroit last season in the regular season were good defensively. But when it came to the playoffs, they were disected apart. Embrassed. Their lockdown defense was shown for only 1 game against the cavs.You want to see the larry brown impact? In the 2004 playoffs, they held the opponents to 80 points. 80 points. You think it's the players only? Check out what he did with the defense at the sixers. They didn't have any outstanding defenders. Mutombo was traded midseason. They held their oppoents to 90ppg in the regular season. It;s true, larry needs the players to work with. But when he has them, he maximises their defensive abilities into a defensive scheme.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 4 2006, 09:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No where did I say Elton wasn't more important. It's just that elton gets all the hype for turning the clippers around. Sam had a huge impact on the clippers and imo, he should props for also turning the team around. Example, people thought elton brand was the mvp for a while. That is why I thought he was overrated.Also, detroit has 1 outstanding defender and 3 other good defenders. But 10 straight games keeping their opposition under 70? That's freaking amazing. I have never seen a defensive system make the triangle disfunctional. Detroit last season in the regular season were good defensively. But when it came to the playoffs, they were disected apart. Embrassed. Their lockdown defense was shown for only 1 game against the cavs.You want to see the larry brown impact? In the 2004 playoffs, they held the opponents to 80 points. 80 points. You think it's the players only? Check out what he did with the defense at the sixers. They didn't have any outstanding defenders. Mutombo was traded midseason. They held their oppoents to 90ppg in the regular season. It;s true, larry needs the players to work with. But when he has them, he maximises their defensive abilities into a defensive scheme.</div>I was one of them saying that Elton Brand was an MVP candidate last year. I think he was as valuable to his team as anyone else in the league was to their team. Without Elton Brand that team would not win 47 games, comes no where close to the playoffs, and doesn't even think about the second round. With Elton Brand the Clippers win 47 games are a playoff team, makes the second round, and comes very close to making the conference finals. That's how important Brand is to that team, and why I don't see how you can say that he is overrated. In the 2004 playoffs, there was a couple of factors helping the Pistons keep teams to 80 points per game. First off, look at who they played in those playoffs. First round they faced a Bucks team, that was not the same team as they were last year in the playoffs, nore was they the type of team that could really score well enough to be a huge offensive threat against anyone. They had much better offensive players this year than that year. The second round they faced the Nets, who while they did like to try to run, it was proven that you could stop that team from running fairly easily by limiting turnovers, as The nets did not have the type of big men, to block shots, and grab rebounds that would turn into fast breaks. In the conference finals the Pistons faced the Indiana Pacers who was just like the Pistons, and slowed the game down to a walking pace, pass the ball and shoot late in the shot clock. That series had games that went 78-74, 72-67, 83-68, 69-65, and 85-78. That is a series that is going to maKe both teams look greater defensively than they really are, but the fact is both teams played real slow ball and the offenses slowed things down alot. In the finals they faced a Lakers team that was old, and was not going to score alot of points either. The main game plan was to slow down the pace of the game, get the ball inside to Shaq. That team won't score a whole lot of points, because of the slower paced slam the ball inside offense they had. To go along with that, teams generaly just did not score as much in 2004 as they did this year. Evidenced by the fact, there was five teams in the league that year that didn't even average in the 90's for points per game. This year only one team averaged below 90 points per game, and that was the Trailblazers. As for the defense in the playoffs this year, they did a good job on defense. Against the Cavs, who averaged 97.6 points per game they stopped the Cavaliers from going above 91 points in any of the games they played. The Heat was averaging 99.9 points per game in the regular season, and didn't score above 98 in a single game they played. The Pistons defense didn't disappear this season, or this past postseason they still played good defense.
