There's so many execuses you can make. The lakers romped through the west beating the spurs and timberwolves in consecutive series. Kobe destroyed the spurs vaulted defense. But when it came to the finals, all of a sudden kobe and the role players disappeared? Why is that? Rewatch it. The best defensive stragety about it. You don't shutdown kobe bryant who destoyed the best permiter defender in the nba 2 series ago if you aint got no defensive stragety. Absolutely amazing.Also, the pistons this year didn't show any of that defense. The former toughness they had which they would win games through defense wasn't there. They only showed that in game 7 against the pistons. The pistons let wade shoot 60%. If this was the 2004 playoffs, wade would be nowehere to be seen. Kobe tried to do excatly what wade does, penetrate but when he did there was a wall of defenders. He was then left to take jumpshots. The pistons let wade shoot 60%. That isn't good defense. Larry brown would never allow it.
Larry Brown should come back to the Pistons as like there Defensive Coach or something. Do you thihnk thats possible?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 5 2006, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There's so many execuses you can make. The lakers romped through the west beating the spurs and timberwolves in consecutive series. Kobe destroyed the spurs vaulted defense. But when it came to the finals, all of a sudden kobe and the role players disappeared? Why is that? Rewatch it. The best defensive stragety about it. You don't shutdown kobe bryant who destoyed the best permiter defender in the nba 2 series ago if you aint got no defensive stragety. Absolutely amazing.Also, the pistons this year didn't show any of that defense. The former toughness they had which they would win games through defense wasn't there. They only showed that in game 7 against the pistons. The pistons let wade shoot 60%. If this was the 2004 playoffs, wade would be nowehere to be seen. Kobe tried to do excatly what wade does, penetrate but when he did there was a wall of defenders. He was then left to take jumpshots. The pistons let wade shoot 60%. That isn't good defense. Larry brown would never allow it.</div>There is a difference between Kobe Bryant trying to penetrate and Dwayne Wade. Wade is much faster, and no one on the Pistons defense could really stay in front of him when he tried to drive. Kobe Bryant is not as fast, and people can stay with him when he tries to penetrate. Tayshaun Prince was quick enough to stay with Kobe Bryant, so he got to guard Kobe Bryant and did a pretty good job on him because of his length and Kobe Bryant trying to shoot over him. Tayshaun Prince was not fast enough to try to guard Dwayne Wade because he is a different type of guard, and Richard Hamilton got the pleasure of trying to guard him more often. Hamilton is not the defensive player that Prince is, so that is a big reason for Wade shooting 60 percent. That defense was good before Larry Brown got there, it was good when Larry Brown got there, and it was good after Larry Brown left. That whole defense was built around Ben Wallace's shot blocking defense down low, and without him, that defense is not even close to as good as what it was.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dagameplayer @ Dec 5 2006, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Larry Brown should come back to the Pistons as like there Defensive Coach or something. Do you thihnk thats possible?</div>Even if Larry Brown does come back, that team is not what it was because he is missing the biggest part of his defense. With Ben Wallace gone, that defense, no matter who coachs it will not be what it used to be.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 6 2006, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There is a difference between Kobe Bryant trying to penetrate and Dwayne Wade. Wade is much faster, and no one on the Pistons defense could really stay in front of him when he tried to drive. Kobe Bryant is not as fast, and people can stay with him when he tries to penetrate. Tayshaun Prince was quick enough to stay with Kobe Bryant, so he got to guard Kobe Bryant and did a pretty good job on him because of his length and Kobe Bryant trying to shoot over him. Tayshaun Prince was not fast enough to try to guard Dwayne Wade because he is a different type of guard, and Richard Hamilton got the pleasure of trying to guard him more often. Hamilton is not the defensive player that Prince is, so that is a big reason for Wade shooting 60 percent. That defense was good before Larry Brown got there, it was good when Larry Brown got there, and it was good after Larry Brown left. That whole defense was built around Ben Wallace's shot blocking defense down low, and without him, that defense is not even close to as good as what it was.Even if Larry Brown does come back, that team is not what it was because he is missing the biggest part of his defense. With Ben Wallace gone, that defense, no matter who coachs it will not be what it used to be.</div>What are you talking abou? Kobe stopped penetrating because every time he drove he was met with a wall of defense. Tayshuan could not stop kobe's penetration, the wallace brothers helped him. Then kobe screwed penetration since it wasn't working and so he went into jumpshot mode. It also doesn't help kobe was raped defensively. They fouled him so much. There was one play, tyshaun literally grabbed kobe's arm on a jumpshot and no foul were called. If wade recieved the same treatment he'd be shooting around 30% also. No player in history would be able to break that defense. Especially with the defense they were allowed to play. I think you need to rewatch the series. Kobe bryant abused tayshaun off the dribble.Let's compare their stats2002-2003 regular seasonOpponents averaged 87.7 points on .438%Playoffs 89.9 points in .433%2003-2004 regular seasonopponents averaged 84.3 % on .413%playoffs 80.7 points on .392%2005-2006 regular season90.2 % on .455%playoffs 88.5% on .464%As you can see, stats show the larry brown impact. In the playoffs, they held their teams to .392. That's insane. Best defensive of all time. The pistons the season before we great defensively but they never held teams to below .400% in the playoofs. Never held teams in the 70's for 10 straight games.While you're at it check out the sixers stats with larry brown in 2001. That team had average defenders beside Mutombo. Not great defenders like rasheed, tayshaun and billups.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 5 2006, 10:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What are you talking abou? Kobe stopped penetrating because every time he drove he was met with a wall of defense. Tayshuan could not stop kobe's penetration, the wallace brothers helped him. Then kobe screwed penetration since it wasn't working and so he went into jumpshot mode. It also doesn't help kobe was raped defensively. They fouled him so much. There was one play, tyshaun literally grabbed kobe's arm on a jumpshot and no foul were called. If wade recieved the same treatment he'd be shooting around 30% also. No player in history would be able to break that defense. Especially with the defense they were allowed to play. I think you need to rewatch the series. Kobe bryant abused tayshaun off the dribble.Let's compare their stats2002-2003 regular seasonOpponents averaged 87.7 points on .438%Playoffs 89.9 points in .433%2003-2004 regular seasonopponents averaged 84.3 % on .413%playoffs 80.7 points on .392%2005-2006 regular season90.2 % on .455%playoffs 88.5% on .464%As you can see, stats show the larry brown impact. In the playoffs, they held their teams to .392. That's insane. Best defensive of all time. The pistons the season before we great defensively but they never held teams to below .400% in the playoofs. Never held teams in the 70's for 10 straight games.</div>I'm sorry to say, but I really think, you need to go back and watch the series, because I can tell you for a fact it was not Ben Wallace moving over alot. Rasheed Wallace is not a huge shot blocking presence in the paint, and doesn't really alter the shots of the guards a whole lot. He is more of a one on one low post defender. Ben Wallace was the one that rotated all the time for the Pistons and he didn't rotate very often that finals because he was told to not play help defense or rotate around, because he had to stay on Shaq the entire time he was there. Tayshaun did alot of individual guarding on Kobe that series, and did a very good job on him. The same thing happened this past year, where Ben had to stay on Shaq alot and did not rotate around to try to get the blocks on Wade. Rasheed did, but as I said he is not the shot blocking presence, or the shot altering presence that Ben is. Tayshaun was to slow to stay in front of Wade, and Hamilton is not the same defensive player that Prince is. That is why Wade shot a good percentage, and tore up the Pistons compared to Kobe.As for your stats you are showing, the season Larry Brown got to Detorit Rasheed Wallace had got to Detroit during the season also and allowed Ben Wallace to have even more freedom down low. Had Rasheed gotten there the year before when Carlisle was the coach things would have been the same way. Teams this past season was shooting better percentages and scoring more this year than they was that year.If you want to bring up stuff like that 76ers thing to try to prove he is such a great defensive coach, how bout we look at last years Knicks team, which should be proof it's the players that make the defense, it's not the coach. The coach has just a little bit to do with it, but overall it's the players. And the player on the Pistons that was the biggest reason for why their defense was so great, was Ben Wallace.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 6 2006, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm sorry to say, but I really think, you need to go back and watch the series, because I can tell you for a fact it was not Ben Wallace moving over alot. Rasheed Wallace is not a huge shot blocking presence in the paint, and doesn't really alter the shots of the guards a whole lot. He is more of a one on one low post defender. Ben Wallace was the one that rotated all the time for the Pistons and he didn't rotate very often that finals because he was told to not play help defense or rotate around, because he had to stay on Shaq the entire time he was there. Tayshaun did alot of individual guarding on Kobe that series, and did a very good job on him. The same thing happened this past year, where Ben had to stay on Shaq alot and did not rotate around to try to get the blocks on Wade. Rasheed did, but as I said he is not the shot blocking presence, or the shot altering presence that Ben is. Tayshaun was to slow to stay in front of Wade, and Hamilton is not the same defensive player that Prince is. That is why Wade shot a good percentage, and tore up the Pistons compared to Kobe.As for your stats you are showing, the season Larry Brown got to Detorit Rasheed Wallace had gotten to Detroit also and allowed Ben Wallace to have even more freedom down low. Had Rasheed gotten there the year before when Carlisle was the coach things would have been the same way. Teams this past season was shooting better percentages and scoring more this year than they was that year.</div>Oh, I have the series right here. So I don't need to rewatch anything. It's on vhs right here. Whenever kobe penetrated more defense was thrown at him. He then started taking jumpers over tayshaun which screwed him up. Tayshaun guarded kobe pretty well on the permiter but he couldnt guard kobe when he drove. His widthspan stopped kobe's jumpshots. Tayshuan is a great defender but he wasnt able to stop kobe off the drible. Bowen couldn't during that playoff series and you think tayshaun can? For the most part, tonight I was attacking 30 feet from the basket," said Bryant, who had four turnovers- Kobe bryantThat basically sums up kobe's series. Jumpshot after jumpshot. Going inside was useless.What did you know? The pistons averaged 85.6 points before rasheed came back. Still less than the season before and they held their opposition to lower percentages. So really, where you look at it you're incorrect. Also, check out what he did with the sixers who had 1 good defender. Infact, for half of the year they had ratliff who was a great shotblocker but other thant that he wasn't great.Any defensive scheme which makes the triangle look stupid is a great defensive system.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 5 2006, 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh, I have the series right here. So I don't need to rewatch anything. It's on vhs right here. Whenever kobe penetrated more defense was thrown at him. He then started taking jumpers over tayshaun which screwed him up. Tayshaun guarded kobe pretty well on the permiter but he couldnt guard kobe when he drove. His widthspan stopped kobe's jumpshots. Tayshuan is a great defender but he wasnt able to stop kobe off the drible. Bowen couldn't during that playoff series and you think tayshaun can? For the most part, tonight I was attacking 30 feet from the basket," said Bryant, who had four turnovers- Kobe bryantThat basically sums up kobe's series. Jumpshot after jumpshot. Going inside was useless.What did you know? The pistons averaged 85.6 points before rasheed came back. Still less than the season before and they held their opposition to lower percentages. So really, where you look at it you're incorrect. Also, check out what he did with the sixers who had 1 good defender. Infact, for half of the year they had ratliff who was a great shotblocker but other thant that he wasn't great.Any defensive scheme which makes the triangle look stupid is a great defensive system.</div>First off, that 76ers team had alot more than one good defender. They had Eric Snow who was a very good defensive point guard at that time, Aaron Mckie, Tyrone Hill was a good defensive player down low, and they traded Ratliff for Mutumbo. Plus, Allen Iverson while people may say he gambles a bit to much, is not a bad defender, and played good defense that year. Furthermore his steals add to the whole team defense. That was a pretty good defensive unit that year, it wasn't all Larry Brown's coaching that made them super great.Second of all, for him to be a defensive mastermind as you claim he is, what happened to the Knicks last year? If he is such a great defensive coach, how come the Knicks wasn't great at defense, why did they give up 102 points per game, when the year before the Knicks gave up only 99.7 points per game, and so far this year they are giving up 100 points per game? So if he's so good, why did the Knicks give up even more points per game under his coaching? If your going to use the 76ers to say he is great defensive coach, be fair and look at the Knicks also. As for that year before in 2003, Tayshaun Prince was a rookie, and just learning the league the year before. You know as well as I do that rookie's coming into the league are going to have a learning curb. Elden Campbell was also not with that team in 2002-2003, he came to the team the year after when Larry Brown was there. He might have played in limited action, but it was still a boost that the Pistons did not have the year before. Those are two good defensive players that the Pistons had which was a big part of them being better defensively than the Pistons were the year before. So they averaged 84.3 points per game, which your right is better than 87.7 the year before, but the team also had better and more experienced defensive players on their team than the year before. A three point decrease, and maybe a .2 percent decrease is due in large part to better players, not better coaching. Rick Carlisle is the one that set the work for that defense, Larry Brown just came in and got the benefit of having a second year player in Prince that had learned the year before under Carlisle, and Elden Campbell on the floor. Plus later in the season he got Rasheed Wallace to come play for the team.As for the Triangle, that season when the Lakers got to the playoffs, that was not the true triangle offense at work. That was a different team, and it did not have the pieces to be the true triangle offense. Gary Payton was terrible in the triangle offense and wanted to much of a scoring role. Karl Malone did an alright job, but he was over the hill. The pieces that made that triangle offense in the years before were gone, or just did not get enough playing time. So I think that is a pretty much useless claim, that they made the triangle offense look stupid.
Karl Malone did an alright jobI don't think Karl Malone did an ok Job at all? Malone missed so many wide open jumpers during the season it wasn't even funny. To this day I still say the lakers made the wrong move when they went with Malone instead of resigning Robert Horry. I believe they would have won the championship with Robert there. I didn't really like the idea of taking Fisher out of the lineup for Payton either. Fisher is younger and better then Payton(at that point in time of Garys career)Just look at what Derick Fisher is doing now for the Utah Jazz. Fishers averaging 9.7 points per game and 3 assists per game while gary payton is averaging 6.8 points per game and 2.3 assists.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falconman1130 @ Dec 7 2006, 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>T-MacYao MingBen WallaceJamaal TinsleyStephen JacksonPejaRasheed Wallace</div>I would like to know why you think Yao Ming is overrated. He is the best center in the league (counting Dwight Howard, a healthy Pau, and a health Shaq), and he is putting up great numbers while leading his team to a pretty good record in the western conference. He has a great mid range jumpshot, expecially for somebody of his size, and he finishes very well around the basket. He is a good rebounder and shot blocker also. He is practically unstoppable when one guy is guarding him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Dec 6 2006, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I would like to know why you think Yao Ming is overrated. He is the best center in the league (counting Dwight Howard, a healthy Pau, and a health Shaq), and he is putting up great numbers while leading his team to a pretty good record in the western conference. He has a great mid range jumpshot, expecially for somebody of his size, and he finishes very well around the basket. He is a good rebounder and shot blocker also. He is practically unstoppable when one guy is guarding him.</div>Because he's 7'6" and can't average over 10 rebounds a game. That's ridiculous. There was an article recently about how Yao is only considered the best center because of Shaq's decline, not because of Yao's dominance. A lot of people act like he's the greatest center ever, but seriously how hard can it be for a guy his height to average 10 boards over a full season? He should have 14!!!!And if you count Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, and Pau Gasol as centers, I dunno if you can authoritatively say that Yao's the best. I'd rather have Duncan myself.
Who the hell cares if you don't get 14 boards a game if you're 7'6, He averages 10. He racks up the points and the wins. All that matters. He does everything you want in a Center...Atleast IMO.But I think he should become more aggressive like Shaq :nasty:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dsounG @ Dec 7 2006, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Who the hell cares if you don't get 14 boards a game if you're 7'6, He averages 10. He racks up the points and the wins. All that matters. He does everything you want in a Center...Atleast IMO.But I think he should become more aggressive like Shaq :nasty:</div>If you're the center and you're 7'6" YES you should average more than 10 a game. He's averaging 9.6 a game in 35.3 minutes a game. That means Yao is pulling down 1 rebound every 3.6 minutes. The guy below him on the rebounding chart, Andris Biedrins, is averaging 9.5 in 29.7 minutes, or 1 rebound every 3.1 minutes. Biendrins is SEVEN inches shorter. Shoot, David Lee who's 6'9" pulls down 1 rebound in every 3.0 minutes! Yao should also average over 2 blocks a game but he's at 1.8 per game right now.Scoring I'll give him credit, he's the best scoring center in the league. But he's not the DOMINANT force everyone acts like he is. Not on both ends of the floor anyway.And did the Rockets rack up the wins last year? Last time I checked Yao hasn't left the first round of the playoffs yet... just like his teammate...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Scoring I'll give him credit, he's the best scoring center in the league. But he's not the DOMINANT force everyone acts like he is. Not on both ends of the floor anyway.</div>What do you define as dominant? On offense, I would say it's:- drawing double-teams- passing to teammates that are open because of your opponents doubling you and/or- scoring over 20 points a game despite the double-teams.Check, check, and check for Yan defense it would be (for a big man):- Scaring your opponents in the paint- Not only being able to guard your man one-on-one, but to shut him downYes and yes for Yao.So, tell me again, how is Yao not dominant?
Nice topic this has become, Good debate Melo061 and Valo35.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hang Eleven @ Dec 8 2006, 02:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What do you define as dominant? On offense, I would say it's:- drawing double-teams- passing to teammates that are open because of your opponents doubling you and/or- scoring over 20 points a game despite the double-teams.Check, check, and check for Yan defense it would be (for a big man):- Scaring your opponents in the paint- Not only being able to guard your man one-on-one, but to shut him downYes and yes for Yao.So, tell me again, how is Yao not dominant?</div>I agree 100% It's hard to find something that Yao doesn't do well. He's a good scorer, He rebounds well, Decent shot blocker, He has great court vision for a big man, He has a nice soft touch around the basket. He's a perfect center.Once he realizes his potential and starts playing aggressive on both ends of the floor, Watch out.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Scoring I'll give him credit, he's the best scoring center in the league. But he's not the DOMINANT force everyone acts like he is. Not on both ends of the floor anyway.</div>And one more thing to add - Even IF he isn't dominant, how does that make him one of the most overrated players in the NBA?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 6 2006, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First off, that 76ers team had alot more than one good defender. They had Eric Snow who was a very good defensive point guard at that time, Aaron Mckie, Tyrone Hill was a good defensive player down low, and they traded Ratliff for Mutumbo. Plus, Allen Iverson while people may say he gambles a bit to much, is not a bad defender, and played good defense that year. Furthermore his steals add to the whole team defense. That was a pretty good defensive unit that year, it wasn't all Larry Brown's coaching that made them super great.Second of all, for him to be a defensive mastermind as you claim he is, what happened to the Knicks last year? If he is such a great defensive coach, how come the Knicks wasn't great at defense, why did they give up 102 points per game, when the year before the Knicks gave up only 99.7 points per game, and so far this year they are giving up 100 points per game? So if he's so good, why did the Knicks give up even more points per game under his coaching? If your going to use the 76ers to say he is great defensive coach, be fair and look at the Knicks also. As for that year before in 2003, Tayshaun Prince was a rookie, and just learning the league the year before. You know as well as I do that rookie's coming into the league are going to have a learning curb. Elden Campbell was also not with that team in 2002-2003, he came to the team the year after when Larry Brown was there. He might have played in limited action, but it was still a boost that the Pistons did not have the year before. Those are two good defensive players that the Pistons had which was a big part of them being better defensively than the Pistons were the year before. So they averaged 84.3 points per game, which your right is better than 87.7 the year before, but the team also had better and more experienced defensive players on their team than the year before. A three point decrease, and maybe a .2 percent decrease is due in large part to better players, not better coaching. Rick Carlisle is the one that set the work for that defense, Larry Brown just came in and got the benefit of having a second year player in Prince that had learned the year before under Carlisle, and Elden Campbell on the floor. Plus later in the season he got Rasheed Wallace to come play for the team.As for the Triangle, that season when the Lakers got to the playoffs, that was not the true triangle offense at work. That was a different team, and it did not have the pieces to be the true triangle offense. Gary Payton was terrible in the triangle offense and wanted to much of a scoring role. Karl Malone did an alright job, but he was over the hill. The pieces that made that triangle offense in the years before were gone, or just did not get enough playing time. So I think that is a pretty much useless claim, that they made the triangle offense look stupid.</div>1- I did say that Larry brown does need the players to work with. When he has the players, he can get the most out of them on the defensive side. The Knicks had a bunch of selfish non defensive players who cares about themselevs first. They didn't have 1 great or even very good defender on that team. It's really hard to make a team like that into a defensive household.2- Well since you say I back track, you too are doing it. First you brought in that the 2002-2003 squad didnt' have rasheed wallace. Then I showed you that they were better at the start of the season without rasheed wallace than the previous season. Then it was Elden Campbell factor never mind that he only played 13 minutes per game in the nba finals. Then it was the tayshaun factor never mind Tayshaun harassed tmac in the 2003 playoffs especially in game 7. I'm sure tayshuan perimiter defense was behind the huge percentages the pistons had in their advantageNever mind the fact that with the pacers, larry brown came in. The team was allowing 110 points and he brought it down to 98 ppg. Nevemind that the previous year that team was allowing 47% and he came in and brought it down to 45%. Never mind that he did with basically the excat same team. Neved mind the next year he brought it down to 95. Never mind he did that with a team who was scarce with good defenders. Never mind with the sixers in his second season they only allowed 88ppg. I guess you got execuses for all of those years? Comeon man, the guy is clearly the best defensive coach of all time. You've seen it with your eyes, you see it with stats. I don't know what will convince you of it.Also what's up with these execuses? The lakers won 50+ with the gary payton as our starting pg. We beat the rockets, spurs and twolves with gary at pg. The offense was rolling during the playoffs (to be fair, phil did abandon the triangle against the spurs because it wasn't working). Your just saying what you've heard. Gary didnt only want to score more, he wanted more freedom. Karl malone was a beast during the playoffs. His defense was the reason why the lakers went anywhere. He was the glue which kept the team together so I don't know what you were saying. Over the hill Malone was a beast for us and he was my favourite player that year. Again, lakers would've been knocked out against the spurs had malone been missing. To say he was decent makes it seem like you didn't follow the lakers during that season.The pieces that made the triangle? What are you talking about? The pieces that made the triangle work were Kobe, shaq and phil. Not robert horry. Karl malone was 10 times the player Horry was during the run. Gary payton was also better than derek fisher ever dreamed off. The team was rolling in the playoffs, kobe was owning, gary wasn't complaining and then boom it all comes to an end. Why? Simple. The triangle offense got shut down. Phil was confused onto what was happening. Kobe bryant, the cataylyst of the entire offense was shutdown . The role players, were all shutdown. The whole ball movement was laid to ruins, it looked as if the triangle offense was outdated. The triangle offense is all about balance and ball movement. It's all about the team. The triangle offense was laid to ruins. Only kobe and shaq were in double figures during the finals and kobe bryant was shooting at around 38%. Larry brown made phil jackson look like a joke and that's coming from a big phil jackson homer. I'm still amazed you think that Robert horry, brian shaw and ron harper were the reasons behind the triangle's success in la. The only reason why I think the old lakers (2000 lakers) could beat the pistons in a series is because of shaq. Not because that 2000 team had the pieces the 2004 team was missing. edit: Looking through these stats just give me more convinction of how sick that team was and how great lb is. They held the vaunted triangle offense to .416%. The best answer to all this is to see phil jackson's face on the sideline in 2004 finals where kobe went brick after brick and everyone else besisdes shaq followed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Dec 8 2006, 05:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1- I did say that Larry brown does need the players to work with. When he has the players, he can get the most out of them on the defensive side. The Knicks had a bunch of selfish non defensive players who cares about themselevs first. They didn't have 1 great or even very good defender on that team. It's really hard to make a team like that into a defensive household.2- Well since you say I back track, you too are doing it. First you brought in that the 2002-2003 squad didnt' have rasheed wallace. Then I showed you that they were better at the start of the season without rasheed wallace than the previous season. Then it was Elden Campbell factor never mind that he only played 13 minutes per game in the nba finals. Then it was the tayshaun factor never mind Tayshaun harassed tmac in the 2003 playoffs especially in game 7. I'm sure tayshuan perimiter defense was behind the huge percentages the pistons had in their advantageNever mind the fact that with the pacers, larry brown came in. The team was allowing 110 points and he brought it down to 98 ppg. Nevemind that the previous year that team was allowing 47% and he came in and brought it down to 45%. Never mind that he did with basically the excat same team. Neved mind the next year he brought it down to 95. Never mind he did that with a team who was scarce with good defenders. Never mind with the sixers in his second season they only allowed 88ppg. I guess you got execuses for all of those years? Comeon man, the guy is clearly the best defensive coach of all time. You've seen it with your eyes, you see it with stats. I don't know what will convince you of it.Also what's up with these execuses? The lakers won 50+ with the gary payton as our starting pg. We beat the rockets, spurs and twolves with gary at pg. The offense was rolling during the playoffs (to be fair, phil did abandon the triangle against the spurs because it wasn't working). Your just saying what you've heard. Gary didnt only want to score more, he wanted more freedom. Karl malone was a beast during the playoffs. His defense was the reason why the lakers went anywhere. He was the glue which kept the team together so I don't know what you were saying. Over the hill Malone was a beast for us and he was my favourite player that year. Again, lakers would've been knocked out against the spurs had malone been missing. To say he was decent makes it seem like you didn't follow the lakers during that season.The pieces that made the triangle? What are you talking about? The pieces that made the triangle work were Kobe, shaq and phil. Not robert horry. Karl malone was 10 times the player Horry was during the run. Gary payton was also better than derek fisher ever dreamed off. The team was rolling in the playoffs, kobe was owning, gary wasn't complaining and then boom it all comes to an end. Why? Simple. The triangle offense got shut down. Phil was confused onto what was happening. Kobe bryant, the cataylyst of the entire offense was shutdown . The role players, were all shutdown. The whole ball movement was laid to ruins, it looked as if the triangle offense was outdated. The triangle offense is all about balance and ball movement. It's all about the team. The triangle offense was laid to ruins. Only kobe and shaq were in double figures during the finals and kobe bryant was shooting at around 38%. Larry brown made phil jackson look like a joke and that's coming from a big phil jackson homer. I'm still amazed you think that Robert horry, brian shaw and ron harper were the reasons behind the triangle's success in la. The only reason why I think the old lakers (2000 lakers) could beat the pistons in a series is because of shaq. Not because that 2000 team had the pieces the 2004 team was missing. edit: Looking through these stats just give me more convinction of how sick that team was and how great lb is. They held the vaunted triangle offense to .416%. The best answer to all this is to see phil jackson's face on the sideline in 2004 finals where kobe went brick after brick and everyone else besisdes shaq followed.</div>2. Tayshaun Prince did not hound T'mac in those playoffs, Tracy Mcgrady went off in that playoff series. I watched that whole thing, and trust me, no one slowed Tracy Mcgrady down from that Pistons squad. The rest of the team got slowed down for that series. Having a bruiser like Elden Cambell for 13 minutes per game is still more than what the Pistons had the year before. Tayshaun Prince getting better in his second year, means that the Pistons had someone to make the other teams best perimeter players work harder and shoot a worse percentage. Even with those two the opposing teams still shot only .2 percent worse than the previous season, and scored two less points per game. Then Rasheed Wallace came, and the team went down to allowing only 3 less points per game than the year before. That's a three point drop in the regular season, than the year before, and that is becaue the team got three better defensive players. That is not much of a drop off from the season before, and in no way proves to me anything. 3. That 76ers team that got better in his second year, also brought in better players to surround A.I with, so that doesn't impress me as much. The year before they had Jerry Stackhouse, Derrick Coleman, Clarence Witherspoon and Jim Jackson play for alot of games. Those are offensive players, not defensive players. The next season Eric Snow got to play with them the entire season, George Lynch came on the team, Tyrone Hill came on the team, and more defensive minded Matt Geiger came onto the team. Those were two completely different teams. That Pacers team, I will give you that, he improved that team, with really Antonio Davis and Byron Scott coming in.3. I was telling balla how much you have improved until you went on that last little tangent about the triangle offense. Now anyone that watch's and knows what they are watching, knows that certain players fit into certain offenses better than other players do. Gary Payton did not have the shot, that Derek Fisher had, Fisher was younger and quicker at that time. Even though Payton was a better player in his career than Derek Fisher was, Derek Fisher was better at that time for the traingle offense. Derek Fisher also moved more without the ball than Gary Payton did which was a huge reason for Derek Fisher being better without the ball. The triangle offense is centered around two stars, and their role players that open up room for the two stars. Derek Fisher was much better by that point in their careers at opening up room, and helping out than Gary Payton was. As for Robert Horry, offensively he moved around more than Karl Malone did when he was there. He was all over the place, around the perimeter, and able to hit the outside shot. Karl Malone was not an outside threat, it was fairly known where he was going to do his damage at, which was closer to the bucket. That is another big reason why Robert Horry was better for this teams offense than Karl Malone. Seriously, when you watch a game, don't just pay attention to the guy that has the ball, look at the other players on the court and how they are moving without the ball. Horry and Fisher moved around alot more Malone and Payton aat that point in the career did which helped the ball movement look more crisp and clean because everyone knows it's easy to guard a standing still target. That's why it was a different triangle offense in that finals, and season than the years before.It was also not at the finals that Gary Payton started complaining, he started in the Spurs series complaining about not being in towards the end of games because Derek Fisher was in to have a quicker person guarding Tony Parker.
