When Jimmy Comes Back Should Snell Stay In The Starting Lineup

Discussion in 'Chicago Bulls' started by rosenthall, Mar 14, 2015.

  1. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    Snell's streak of looking like an honest-to-god NBA player is going on two months, and he's recently begun putting together good games as a higher usage guy without the benefit of leaning on the best players on the team.

    Since February this is how Dunleavy and Snell compare Head to Head:

    Minutes: 28.3(MDJ) 32(Snell)
    +/-: 1.5(MDJ) 2.5(Snell)
    FG%: 38.9 (MDJ) 47.3 (Snell)
    3P%: 41(MDJ) 48 (Snell)
    3PA: 3.7 (MDJ) 5.1 (Snell)
    PPG: 7.9 (MDJ) 12.1 (Snell)
    FTA: 0.8 (MDJ) 1.5 (Snell)
    REB: 3.7 (MDJ) 3.6 (Snell)
    Ast: 1.9 (MDJ) 1 (Snell)

    Snell's been better across the board, with the one exception being assists. I don't think MDJ's advantage there means much since neither is used as a fulcrum for the offense.

    I think the argument for keeping Snell in the starting lineup is pretty easy to make. He's a much more dangerous player offensively and it's a lot easier to play the matchup game with Tony than Mike. Snell can create his own shot, Mike can't. Tony can defend all three backcourt positions, Mike can't.

    He's been a very good volume shooter as well since the lightbulb went on so you can't really make the argument that Mike's a better floor spacer. And unlike Mike, Tony can actually make you pay for playing too close on him.

    Mike's game inside the arc looks pretty much done, as evidenced by his extremely low FTA's.

    I actually think a Derrick/Jimmy/Tony backcourt is pretty hard to game plan against. All three can create their own shot and beat you in different ways. Tony also has the benefit of being a capable ball handler, so it might spare us the need to play those extremely unbalanced Rose + Brooks/Kirk lineups we sometimes revert to in order to get extra ball handling.

    I remember last year thinking about how much having Boozer in the starting lineup killed us in the playoffs. Boozer would royally stink it up, and then Taj would have to come in and overcompensate to clean up his mess. Mike hasn't quit on the team like Boozer did, but I think it's easy to see that Tony's a harder cover than Mike these days.

    The big reason not to do it is that Tony might not be ready for the intensity of the bright lights of playoff basketball and might shit the bed a few times as he gets used to the added pressure. I don't see Tony as a clutch guy.

    Then again, Mike might not be ready for it either if he continues to bring no shot creation ability and keeps getting blocked by the rim on open dunk attempts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
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  2. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm with you on this. Even before DunVP's injury, he wasn't playing very well in spite of his TS% on few shots being good.

    What Mike brings is height and 3pt shooting. With him, Noah, and Pau you have 6'9", 7', 7' across the front line.

    I do like how well DunVP handles the ball, too. And on occasion he puts on a 20+ point game.

    It's kind of funny that the 20lb heavier Butler is a SG while the thinner Snell is a SF. They're both 6'7".

    upload_2015-3-14_7-31-27.png

    The good news is Jimmy can probably guard 3-4 positions and Snell at least 2.
     
  3. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    I like Dunleavy as a roleplayer too, but we'v seen this team continually get killed by having too many low usage guys on the court at the same time in the playoffs.

    And it's not like you're making these huge tradeoffs when you put Snell into the lineup. That's why Gar was high on him at draft time......he's very toolsy on both sides of the court.

    If we get Washington in the first round, I think a Jimmy/Snell pairing is more advantageous than Jimmy/Mike. Snell's actually a very good matchup against Beale. His length was too much for him to overcome on defense last time we played.

    Pierce doesn't really create his offense anymore, except for his inbetween fadeaway game, and Tony's well equipped to guard that.
     
  4. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    There's another aspect to consider. Athleticism.

    At 34, DunVP isn't good at jumping high/quick or moving his feet or blocking shots on defense. He's not going to make a defender work up much of a sweat, even chasing him through all the picks and screens set to get him an open look.
     
  5. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm all in favor of this. Snell seems like a great D and 3 guy as long as he's hitting.
     
  6. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Okay, good everybody agrees that Snell should stay in the starting lineup.

    Now let me troll! How many of you think it's actually going to happen?
     
  7. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Maybe it doesn't matter. If Snell gets 30+ minutes and DunVP gets 18, then Snell's effectively getting starter's minutes.
     
  8. Bullsville

    Bullsville Intelligent Bulls Fan

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    I'm not sure there's a Bulls fan anywhere would wouldn't agree with you rosenthall.

    Unfortunately, it's been 5 years and I can't remember Thibiot ever making a change to his starting lineup unless his hand was forced by an injury.

    Has he EVER changed a starter just because another player is better and should be getting more minutes?
     
  9. Bullsville

    Bullsville Intelligent Bulls Fan

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    LOL, that's not trolling, it's a legitimate question.

    I'll put my vote in as "no freaking way it happens"! :D
     
  10. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    Ultimately, it doesn't matter who starts as much as who gets the bulk of the minutes and who usually finishes games. Snell, if he keeps playing as he has, should be getting more minutes.

    Snell vs McDermott though... who should get minutes there?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
  11. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    That's a cop out. It absolutely matters whether Snell or Dunleavy starts in terms of lineups, and I like Snell better with that starting lineup. In terms of bench play, I think it's easy to build an argument for McDermott, even though Dunleavy's still the better player. Part of the problem with Dunleavy over his career is that he's been a very good player who you never quite were happy with as your full time starter; but at the same time, he doesn't play with a high enough usage to be a plus guy off the bench.
     
  12. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Agreed.
     
  13. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    If Snell plays 12 minutes in Q4, he's playing with the starters or guys having their best games, and he's playing when it counts?

    Thibs started Boozer last year, but Boozer didn't finish games.
     
  14. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    It still made a difference who started, right? Thibs liked the offense Boozer provided at the beginning of games -- so did I.
     
  15. transplant

    transplant Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Ooh, looks like one of those rare kumbaya moments on the board. Yeah, I think Snell has shown enough to get the starting nod and I've always preferred Dunleavy coming off the bench. Get 'er done, Thibs.
     
  16. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Or, this is how you treat veterans. The younger guys have to pay their dues.

    Unless you're Billy Beane with low budget and your only strategy can be MoneyBall.
     
  17. Bullsville

    Bullsville Intelligent Bulls Fan

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    Yup, it seems unanimous that Snell should be ahead of Dunleavy from here on out - in fact, in February and March, Snell (29.7 and 34.5) played more minutes than MDJ (24.5 and 31.6).

    Now it's just a matter of whether or not McDoug moves ahead of Dunleavy in the rotation. In the last 5 games, Doug has played 66:20, which is the first time he's played over 65 minutes in a 5-game stretch since the first 5 games of the season.

    He's shooting 44.4% (16/36) overall and 62.5% (5/8) from behind the arc in the last 5, scoring 7.8 points with 2.4 rebounds in 13.2 minutes (21.3 and 6.5 per 36).
    Dunleavy is at 40% (12/30) overall and 38.1% (8/21) from behind the arc in the last 5, scoring 7.0 points with 4.0 rebounds in 30.7 minutes (8.2 and 4.7 per 36).

    There's 15 games left in the season, I say give each of them similar minutes the rest of the way and see who's playing better headed into the post-season. If it's close you have to give the nod to the veteran, but if McDoug clearly outplays him, he should get the minutes.

    From everything I've seen this year, I think the playoff minutes should go like this:

    Frontcourt: Gasol, Noah/Mirotic, Gibson, Nazr
    Wings: Butler, Snell, Dunleavy/McDermott, Moore
    Point guard: Rose, Brooks, Hinrich

    I don't think it should be a lock that Noah get more PT than Niko - if he's healthy and playing like All-NBA 1st Team, DPOY Jo on defense, then he should play more. If not, Niko has improved on defense, his rebounding has been better than anyone could have expected, and he obviously gives us more on offense... we're only talking like a 32/28 or 34/26 split anyway.

    And if Brooks is out of his funk and playing the way he has the last two games and the way he did thru January, there's really no need for Hinrich to ever see the floor.
     
  18. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    Well, its not meant to be. Part of being a successful NBA coach is managing the egos. Guys like Thibs and Phil Jackson are good at this.

    I like Snell better than Dunleavy as of late.

    He should be getting more minutes. But Dunleavy isn't useless, he's still decent at times. But he's a vet. So, sometimes you keep that guy the starter to save face and keep that guy happy / productive but you give the better player more minutes and have them finish games. If there are 15 minutes for Dunleavy and 25 for Snell given a scenario like that and you are getting the most out of both guys that way, I don't have a problem with it.
     
  19. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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  20. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    That's an easy one. Snell. Doug's played okay in his increased minutes but he hasn't found his NBA game yet.

    Also, Doug's really not a very good matchup guy right now because you can still pick on him on defense. I think he'd be a target in a 7 game series. Better to stick with MDJ and leave McLips on the bench.

    If his number gets called, then great. It's a 'Next Man Up' kind of league and he'll have his chance to show something. But he hasn't deserved minutes with his on court play as of now.
     

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