Finally someone with an intellectual argument; here we go! 1) Incorrect! Not every player has a drastic decrease in PER. For example, the first two players I thought of off the top of my head as a third option (Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler) did not see the drastic decrease that you claim. Why is this? Because, typically, only the top 2 options will see a drastic decrease in efficiency because defenses are geared towards them, opening up opportunities for the lesser players, which USUALLY actually stay about the same at PER or even increase, because the increased relience upon them to succeed. (Look at the entire SPURS team over the last couple years, for instance.) That is why the third star is CRITICAL. Also, you'll notice Batum went from slightly above average PER wise to below average. His PER was 34th in the league in regards to small forwards. I agree it is not the end all be all, but EFFICIENCY IS CRITICAL IN THE PLAYOFFS. You simply cannot pull a Jeff Green (I'll concede he wasn't that terrible). But our 3rd best player cannot, absolutely CANNOT, go from above average to below average in the playoffs if you want the team to be successful. 2) As it is my understanding, you are successfully arguing why PER is a good stat - it accounts for pace adjustment, less rebounds, smaller numbers because it measures EFFICIENCY and not STAT mongering. Rebound %, Ast%, TO%, shooting percentage, etc. Once again, if Batum were being guarded by elite defenders - we wouldn't be having this conversation. Do you think Jeff Green is an elite defender? Additionally, Memphis' admitted they were game planning for CJ FUCKING MCCOLLUM at one point in the series. But not Batum. That is insane. I hate to go back to it, but, you simply cannot have your third best player become below average PER wise. (If PER is overrated, why is it that every elite player has a great PER?) The truth is, its probably not as important as I make it sound, but you make it seem virtually negligible, which it clearly is not. 3) I did not ignore his per game stats, I actually took this into account (and you're the first person to question me about them) but the fact is, they are inefficient stats regarding points (additionally, this post season Batum had to make up for the loss of Wesley Matthews garnering a larger role - in which he only increase his scoring by 3 points? Sheesh.) Playoffs are about EFFICIENCY and he simply is LESS efficient than he must be in the playoffs for this team to be successful. He goes from a good above average player (PER WISE) to not very good and that is WITHOUT TEAMS KEYING IN ON HIM. Additionally, his PER was 11.1 in the playoffs on a 19.2% usage rate. His regular season? 13.1 on 14.6% usage rate. So in the playoffs, he got less efficient while having the ball more. Why did he have the ball more? Well, we lost Wes and - what GOOD playoff teams do - take the ball out of the best players hands (Lamarcus and Damian) and make the third, fourth, fifth guy step up. Batum didn't do that and become more efficient. Once again, this is not JUST about Batum, but this thread is. McCollum has his weaknesses, so does Meyers, so do our better players. But the fact is, Batum is paid like our 3rd best player and will want to get paid even more and you cannot pay a guy significant money who has a 11.1 PER in the Memphis series that people keep say he was "good" in. 11.1!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS GARBAGE for someone who is going to want 15+ million. You'll struggle to find another 3rd star who teams are defending for having a 11.1 PER. JR Smith had a higher PER than Batum in the playoffs and he sucked up the joint in the finals.
I think if we traded for 4 it'd be to take Russell as a starting SG and we wouldnt gamble on Wes. Nobody values Gay that much and he's a terrible fit for the triangle, especially next to Carmelo. Nic would be more valuable to them because he fits better in that system
By the time the Knicks have the Triangle running, Batum will be 31. Figure it's going to take a few years to gather the personnel and get everyone to buy in and learn it. The better move, IMO, is to draft players to fit in and use cap space on stars who will at least make the team fun to watch. The Knicks might even get a draft pick or a useful player to absorb Gay's contract. 4th pick is a cornerstone draftee position.
Cap space is the reason we'd have to take Jose Calderons dead weight contract. The Knicks will try and get the right pieces to run the triangle this offseason. Monroe-Batum-Carmelo+$13M in cap space is a good situation. We might have to give them our 2018 first round pick and filler like Crabbe but being able to pair Russell and Lillard in the same backcourt would be worth it. And the Kings aren't begging teams to take Gay. He's only making $12M next year, so why would they trade him? And like I said, he doesn't fit the Knicks system or team.
I guess they are shopping him but it's so they can get Rondo. Don't think they want a draft pick in return
Gay has a 19.7 PER, .556 TS%, the 3.7 APG, and 21.1 PPG. Batum a 13.1 PER, .516 TS%, the 4.8 APG, and 9.4 PPG. Why give up the #4 pick for Batum when you have the cap space to take Gay on and have the #4 pick too? And you already know this: http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/sto...-rumors-rudy-gay-rajon-rondo-sacramento-kings I've said my piece. It's my opinion.
Hmmmm, I'm not a fan of Rudy Gay but his contract is actually not bad going forward. Portland: Rudy Gay, Jose Calderon and #4 New York: Nic Batum, Chris Kaman and #23 Sacramento: Capspace and maybe some future pick or something. That wouldn't be terrible. The Knicks certainly get 2 players who can play in the triangle and they can pick up a PG at 23.
I mentioned this idea a while ago. I would love to be able to move Batum and 23 for #4 and then draft WCS or package #4 and move down to draft WCS and add a future protected 1st or some second round picks. Not sure the Knicks want to add 12 million in salary.
The deal that is rumored is: Knicks 4th pick to Denver for #7 plus. They want Frank Kaminsky, a big man, who they feel is ideal for the triangle. If the Knicks get another draft pick in return, or maybe even Ty Lawson as part of the deal, they are getting what they really want.
Nic would be more valuable because he's a better defender and would play better with Carmelo and whatever star they sign. Nics usage rate is 10 points lower than Gays.
I guess I am really bored and somebody posted how much worse Lillard was in the playoffs than Batum and also I'm quite proud that I worked up a trade with one player who has poison pill provision, because that is not easy! So here it is: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nh9gd4c Batum and Lillard for Rubio, Muhammed and Dieng (Gary Neal just is in there to make it work) plus their lottery pick. OK, ok, I'll give them our pick back. I'm not sure why either team would do this since I really believe in continuity (although how about Cleveland?). Maybe if Aldridge didn't really like either Batum or Lillard? (Oh, Portland would open up $4 million on this trade)
It's a good argument. I would only counter with Gay requiring the ball in his hands to be effective. Also, gay only plays SF, while Batum can play PG, SG and SF. More versatile, allows Melo to ISO and a better rebounder.
Rofl @ defending Batum in the 2015 NBA Playoffs He had one good game against Memphis where he got hot from 3 (6-12 from deep) The other 4 games combined he shot 26% (7-27) from 3 and 15-52 overall from the field (29%) He was absolutely dreadful
Hey Blue9? Why ignore so quickly and easily? Because a couple people got a little testy on each other? Seems to happen a lot around here. If you ifgnore everyone, then, well...LOL Anyhow, The defense on Nic in the playoffs is moot. His per went up...it SHOULD! He is not our go to, first or second option, so other teams key in on our all stars, leaving Nic more opportunities. He SHOULD be on the up. The argument about Nic is his last few years overall being inconsistent. I know we live in an instant world, Cant see in front of our nose or behind the back of our ears, but the FACT is Nic is the most inconsistent player on the team over he last 3 seasons. Trade him? Move him? Keep him? Doesn't matter...He is inconsistent...
It's really not a good argument. That was Gay's BEST season and Nic's WORST season. Gay needs to dominate the ball to put up those numbers...on a crap team.
Bet BIG (trade the #4) on the guy who had his worst season vs. the guy who had his best season (and keep #4)?
Don't get me wrong. I would much rather have Batum than Gay. I was giving Denny the benefit of the doubt. Batum is easily more valuable then Gay, especially if we are talking the need for NY.
