He was injured most the season, which skews the numbers. There have been many seasons where gay was injured and had a terrible year. What Gay doesn't bring when his offense is down is defense and rebounding. Something Batum is much better than Gay.
Because I don't have time for stupid. I don't care if people get testy with each other, or have differing opinions - that's what message boards are for. But there are some people who add absolutely nothing to a conversation, and post A LOT, and I simply don't have the time to waste on that crap. If you add to something meaningful to the conversations I won't ignore you - but there are a number of posters that don't add anything except stupidity and/or negativity. There are actually a couple people on my list that I think are probably pretty nice, intelligent people - but their posts add nothing to my experience here.
Per 36 over their careers, Batum gets 5.9 rebounds to Gay's 5.8. .1 rebound per 36 isn't worth the #4 pick. Gay hasn't had a season with a PER below 15 since his rookie season. He's had a 17+ PER 5 times and 18+ PER twice. Batum has three sub 15 PER seasons and two 17+. Terrible years? Which ones - please elaborate. And how does being injured somehow skew the numbers?
I was simply talking about your comparison of Gay/Nic. Poor comparison. However, beyond that, I agree that NYK would be better off keeping the pick and taking Gay, rather than trading the pick for Nic. Sorry I wasn't clear that I was only picking on the player comparison.
PER/Usage is the better evaluator. Plus "per 36" doesn't mean anything when you talk about starting players. That evaluation is used for limited minute role players. Also, remember Gay has usually been the #1 or #2 option for most his career. Batum has never been even the #2 option a single year
The true comparison of Advanced Stats between Batum vs. Gay (Career stats): PER: Batum: 15.2, Gay: 16.7 WINNER Gay USG%: Batum: 17.0, Gay: 25 WINNER Batum Difference (PER/US%): Batum (-1.8), Gay: (-8.3) WINNER Batum Vorp: Batum: 2.68, Gay: 1.67 WINNER Batum TS%: Batum: 56.8%, Gay: 53% WINNER Batum TRB%: Batum: 9.4%, Gay: 9.5% WINNER Gay OWS: Batum: 3.25, Gay: 2.19 WINNER Batum DWS: Batum: 2.09, Gay: 2.44 WINNER Gay WS: Batum: 5.34, Gay: 4.63 WINNER Batum Salary: Batum: 11.3 mil, Gay: 19.3 mil WINNER Batum Clearly Denny has Cherry picked stats to justify his claim.
Why is lower usg% better? LOL High USG% means the coach draws up plays for you to shoot because you're the best guy to shoot. Oddly, Gay has more DWS which is indicative of being the better defender.
USG% subtracting PER is the indicator of true efficiency. If you require more shots on offense, you are obviously less efficient. That's the same argument many use for Aldridge. His usage to per is skewed.
Who cares about "true efficiency?" Gay is one of the elite scorers in the league. Batum simply isn't even close.
At some point you just know Gay will land on some contending team with a good coach and he will help them win a ring. Maybe it will be from off the bench. He keeps going to young teams, but at some point he will land with a bunch of savvy vets and he will fit in nicely. Hoopshype has his contract this year at 19 mil, but then it drops to 13. I would take a chance on him.
Not when you pair that player with another that demands a ton of shots like Melo. This is the argument Denny, which you have been obviously avoiding. There isn't enough shots to go around with Melo and Gay. Especially since they are both SFs
I never used the word drastic, and I didn't say every player. I said most players see their PER decrease in the post season. When you put words in my mouth, it's easy for you to claim what I "said" is incorrect! Siting two counter examples does not disprove what I wrote. Just look at the Blazers alone: Aldridge: Regular Season PER = 22.8 Playoff PER = 16.7 Net = - 6.1 Lillard: Regular Season PER = 20.7 Playoff PER = 15.0 Net = -5.7 Batum: Regular Season PER = 13.1 Playoff PER =11.1 Net = -2.0 Lopez: Regular Season PER = 16.2 Playoff PER = 11.6 Net = -4.6 Afflalo: Regular Season PER = 8.2 Playoff PER = -5.0 Net = -13.2 Kaman: Regular Season PER = 17.3 Playoff PER = 11.7 Net = -5.6 Blake: Regular Season PER = 9.5 Playoff PER = 2.9 Net = -6.6 Leonard: Regular Season PER = 14.8 Playoff PER = 19.6 Net = +4.8 McCollum: Regular Season PER = 13.1 Playoff PER = 16.1 Net = +3.0 So, all of the top 7 in MPG during the regular season saw their PER drop in the post season. Of those, Batum's -2.0 drop in PER was significantly less than Aldridge, Lillard, Lopez, Afflalo, Kaman and Blake. The only two players who saw an increase in PER in the playoffs were two backups that weren't even in the regular rotation for most of the season (in other words, two guys the Grizzlies did not heavily scout and prepare for). No, I didn't notice that (again, putting words in my mouth). By definition a PER = 15.0 is league average. So, Batum's regular season PER = 13.1 was, by definition below average. First, in spite of the acronym Hollinger chose, PER is NOT a good measure of efficiency. It attempts to be one single number that represents total production. In terms of scoring efficiency, there are better stats (TS% or PTS/FGA). And if you are going to single out Batum, our 3rd best player, for his 2.0 decrease in efficiency what about our 1st best player (-6.1), our second best player (-5.6), our 4th best player (-4.6), etc. No, that's not what I am arguing at all (again, putting words in MY mouth to make YOUR point). I'm saying comparing regular season PER to playoff PER is a crappy way to show a player whose scoring increased by 50% and rebounding increased by over 60% "disappeared" in the playoffs. PER does NOT measure efficiency, and is probably the most misnamed stat ever. Even Hollinger's own definition of PER does not mention the word efficiency: "The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance." PER is all about production, not efficiency. Allen Iverson has a career post season PER = 21.2, but his career playoff TS% is only .489. Iverson was a volume scorer, not an efficient scorer, and PER rewards him for the volume of his scoring in spite if his low scoring efficiency. Most of the advanced stats you mentioned are not used in the calculation of PER. First, Batum did not increase his scoring by only 3 points per game in he playoffs, he increased it by 4.8 PPG. And what about his other teammates? How much did they increase their scoring to make up for the loss of Wesley? I already showed that other than C.J. and Meyers, all out other top players saw their PERs decrease by much more than Batum. Aldridge's scoring = down 1.6 PPG and much less efficient. Lillard's scoring up 0.6 PPG, but much less efficient. Lopez' scoring down 4.2 PPG. Afflalo scoring down 8.9 PPG. Kaman scoring down 6.6 PPG, Blake scoring down 2.9 PPG. Again only Batum, McCollum and Leonard saw their scoring increase in the playoffs. Why didn't any of our other starters step up and make up for the loss of Wesley's scoring? I'm not saying Batum played great during the playoffs. Other than C.J. and Meyers, nobody did. What I take exception to is your basic point that Batum disappears during the playoffs. That's just flat out false. The guy increased his scoring by over 50% and his rebounding by over 60%. Was he efficient? Not especially, but neither were Aldridge, Lillard, Afflalo, Kaman, Blake, etc. The simple truth is Batum did not disappear during the playoffs. He was not passive. He took more shots, scored more points, got more rebounds and dished more assists. If you want to blame someone for disappearing, why not start with the guys who scored less, got fewer rebounds and had fewer assists. BNM
Nonsense. The Heat won championships with LeBron, Wade, and Bosh. Three guys with high USG%. Championships and finals appearances are pretty good indications it works, theres enough ball to go around. Melo can play PF and has a lot recently. Gay has played at SG and PF. If they did make this trade, the coach will play his best players.
Rudy Gay is the Stephon Marbury of small forwards. He scores a lot, but when he gets traded, his old team gets better and his new team gets worse. There's a reason why guys like Gay and Marbury, in spite of their "elite" scoring, are always getting traded. BNM
LeBron/Wade/Bosh were three guys who chose to join forces to win a championship. Bosh took a major back seat for the good of the team. Trading for Rudy Gay and pairing him with one of the most selfish basketball players I have ever seen does not equal LeBron/Wade/Bosh in Miami.
Sacramento is better with Gay. 25-43 with him, 3-12 without him this season. 27-46 last season with him, 1-8 without. Toronto went from 23-43 to 34-48 after acquiring him. But yeah, his new team gets worse by some measure.
LBJ is not Melo. He actually distributes and makes other players around him better. Wade has already proven before, being able to play with a dominant ISO player (Shaq). Bosh had high usage in Toronto, but understood LBJ and wade are better players for usage. Melo and Gay have proven that they will take shots away from whom they are paired up with. Gay did it in Memphis, Toronto and he did it in Sac, when Boogie was obviously their most efficient player.
