Both came out of the '98 draft, whenever I see redo's of this draft, Nowitzki and Vince are always ahead of Pierce, which is bullsh** to me. Paul is just as good a scorer as Dirk is, he's a much better defender, and he has no help, unlike the loaded Mavericks. What do you think?
Sorry, Pierce is a great player and everything, but not as good as Nowitzki. Nowitzki is considered the GREATEST European ever, so I wouldnt pick him over a wing that was only a top 5 one in his prime. You switch, Dirk and Paul right now, Mavericks arent even considered a top 3 team in the West anymore. I'd have to have them below SA, Phoenix and Denver/Utah. Now if Dirk was on the Celtics as of now, I garuntee that they would be leading their division. First off, Dirk would have it pretty easy in the "smaller east" while Pierce would have it harder in the West with the likes of the Bowens, Marions, and AK-47's. I agree that I would take him over Vince Carter, but Dirk would have to be number 1 in that draft. He's so underated on defense. I guess he will always be labeled that since he wasnt a great one early on. If you rank that draft, it'd have to go like this. 1.Dirk2.Pierce3.Vince Carter4.Mike Bibby5.Antawn JamisonOverall, there wasnt a ton of depth in this draft.
Well saying he's the greatest Eurpoean ever really doesn't mean anything, I could say that Kobe is the greatest player to come from Lower Merion, that doesn't mean much. He really hasn't had much competition, there really aren't many European stars in the league today. Paul is still in his prime, and look at the competition he has, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Ray Allen, Dwyane Wade, there's tons of great SGs out there, significantly better competition than Dirk has against other Europeans, so I don't think that's a very valid argument.I definitely don't think that if you switched Dirk and Paul we would be leading our division, he's played along side great players his entire career, we have no idea what he'd be like shouldering the entire load himself. Even if the Mavericks aren't as good this season as years past, they still have a loaded team, far better than any team Paul has ever played on. The one season that Paul had any help whatsoever was 2002, when he had Antoine (who didn't jack up shots and play lazily then) and a crappy when compared to most other playoff teams, but still better than he's had in other years, supporting cast. I would hardly compare the likes of Tony Battie, Erick Strickland, Eric Williams, Kenny Anderson, etc. to the type of teammates that Dirk has had every year the Mavs have made the playoffs, yet Paul still took the C's to within 2 games of the Finals, against a heavily favored Nets squad. Dirk may be underrated on defense, but that isn't saying much. He's at best an average defender. Paul is also very underrated on defense, he's a great defender when he needs to be.
I think this is a kind of unfair comparison, considering two different postitions, etc, but you can't deny Dirk. I've watched Paul all of my life, and love him just as much as any Celtic fan, but when you get a 7 footer than can shoot jumpers, threes, fade aways, and can rebound and defend pretty decently, that doesn't come along very often, and you can't deny Dirk in this comparison. But Pierce rebounds better than most guards you'll find and he's got bigger balls than maybe anyone else in the NBA. IMO both of these guys are top ten players in the league.
Dirk is very versatile yes, but I don't think that makes him a better player. Paul is probably the best rebounding guard in the league, maybe behind Jason Kidd, but he's up there. He's also one of the best at getting to the line, few players attempt and make as many free throws as him. His mid-range game is easily one of the best in the league, he has the best step back and fade away shot in the game, and he's become an excellent outside shooter too, he's making tons of 3s this season, and shooting a very solid .409 from behind the arc. He's so difficult to defend because he can kill you in so many ways, he'll take it to the hoop and draw contact as well as anyone, he'll fade from 18 which is almost impossible to block, or he'll step behind the arc and drain it in your face. Dirk is definitely one of the most versatile offensive weapons in the NBA, but I wouldn't say more so than Pierce is.
Dirk has been one of the five most valuable players in the league the last few seasons whereas pierce is barely a top ten player
Uhh alright, taking into account your lack of evidence to support those claims, I'm going to pay no attention.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JustBlaze @ Dec 25 2006, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Uhh alright, taking into account your lack of evidence to support those claims, I'm going to pay no attention.</div>Dirk was #1 on the MVP monitor (the most accurate MVP predictor out there) the last two years. Pierce wasn't in the top 10.Dirk was #3 in MVP votes the last two years. Pierce wasn't in the top ten.I believe that's sufficient evidence.
This comparison is pretty tough, like both of them play around the same kind of game like to shoot the ball and take over mentality. But I think if Nowitzki came to the east he would be simply dominating. In the west he already plays against amare, kg, duncan, yao and all of them are great defenders and yet he still scores like its nothing. In the east that is there just isnt simply a big men that can stop him. unless theres Bosh, Ben, Howard, but dirk will jus do the same he did with kg amare and them. But what disappoints me is that at his height he should grab like 10RPG and around 2BPG, but in his whole career he has never gone to 10rebounds but have been close. Even though he isnt a great defender he should still be able to block fairly well because of his height just look at marion a 6'9 forward who can block very well..Pierce has quick hands and can steall the ball ok. In each of his years he has averaged around 1SPG. and his rebounds arent bad to for a guard with 7RPG. He has a good post up game, but I think when he goes to the west he will just be as good except the competition is tougher afterall theres kobe and tmac he has to match up with. Playing with Dallas if you were to swap them both will bring his minutes down? sicne there is stackhouse, george, howard and Terry that he has to battle minutes for. This would be a good supporting cast for Pierce, Howard can rebound play defense, terry stackhouse and george can all score well when pierce is in trouble, but I think that Pierce wont be as good in the west.But then they both are practically the same hard to compare
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ Dec 25 2006, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dirk was #1 on the MVP monitor (the most accurate MVP predictor out there) the last two years. Pierce wasn't in the top 10.Dirk was #3 in MVP votes the last two years. Pierce wasn't in the top ten.I believe that's sufficient evidence.</div>So what? The Mavericks went to the Finals, the Celtics didn't even make the playoffs. One of these players has a hell of a lot more help than the other, so that's not surprising.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HoNgKoNgKoBe @ Dec 25 2006, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This comparison is pretty tough, like both of them play around the same kind of game like to shoot the ball and take over mentality. But I think if Nowitzki came to the east he would be simply dominating. In the west he already plays against amare, kg, duncan, yao and all of them are great defenders and yet he still scores like its nothing. In the east that is there just isnt simply a big men that can stop him. unless theres Bosh, Ben, Howard, but dirk will jus do the same he did with kg amare and them. But what disappoints me is that at his height he should grab like 10RPG and around 2BPG, but in his whole career he has never gone to 10rebounds but have been close. Even though he isnt a great defender he should still be able to block fairly well because of his height just look at marion a 6'9 forward who can block very well..Pierce has quick hands and can steall the ball ok. In each of his years he has averaged around 1SPG. and his rebounds arent bad to for a guard with 7RPG. He has a good post up game, but I think when he goes to the west he will just be as good except the competition is tougher afterall theres kobe and tmac he has to match up with. Playing with Dallas if you were to swap them both will bring his minutes down? sicne there is stackhouse, george, howard and Terry that he has to battle minutes for. This would be a good supporting cast for Pierce, Howard can rebound play defense, terry stackhouse and george can all score well when pierce is in trouble, but I think that Pierce wont be as good in the west.But then they both are practically the same hard to compare</div>Kobe and T-Mac or LeBron and Wade, I'd call that even. If anything he has tougher competition in the East. He put up 50 against LeBron last year too, LeBron said he feels himself and Pierce are the top two at their position in the east. I definitely think the east has similar big men to the west, we've got Howard, Bosh, Okafor, Jermaine and Shaquille O'Neal, it's pretty comparable.
Well to be honest I was expecting the Mavs fans to go off on me for this, good to see Pierce get some credit.
Just to chime in about Dirk's help. Dirk makes everyone on the team appear better then they are, without him this team struggles to stay afloat above .500. Their better then Pierce's but from a standpoint, the team still runs on Dirk just like Celts with Pierce. Our 2nd and 3rd options are inconsistent, one is better at home then on the road by a drastic amount, the other a shooter whose numbers improved from Hawks to Mavs(shooting wide open looks in Big D opposed to creating his own in Atl). Not guys you hang your team on as both rely on another to draw attention.With that said, I think the comparison is a wash. Pierce is a better player then advertised but because of his situation, he's overlooked in many ways. Still doesn't take away from Dirk and his talents.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Well to be honest I was expecting the Mavs fans to go off on me for this, good to Pierce get some credit.</div>Of the Mavs fans on this board, there's only one active homer at the moment. The other is in incognito, you may know him as Waqas. The others give credit when it's due.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Man with No Name @ Dec 26 2006, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just to chime in about Dirk's help. Dirk makes everyone on the team appear better then they are, without him this team struggles to stay afloat above .500. Their better then Pierce's but from a standpoint, the team still runs on Dirk just like Celts with Pierce. Our 2nd and 3rd options are inconsistent, one is better at home then on the road by a drastic amount, the other a shooter whose numbers improved from Hawks to Mavs(shooting wide open looks in Big D opposed to creating his own in Atl). Not guys you hang your team on as both rely on another to draw attention.With that said, I think the comparison is a wash. Pierce is a better player then advertised but because of his situation, he's overlooked in many ways. Still doesn't take away from Dirk and his talents.Of the Mavs fans on this board, there's only one active homer at the moment. The other is in incognito, you may know him as Waqas. The others give credit when it's due.</div>I agree that Pierce is a victim of circumstance, as soon as we start winning games he starts getting recognition, his jersey sales were tops at the NBA store in 2002 I believe, the year we made that great playoff run. There's no doubt in my mind that if he was on a team with the talent that Dirk has that he'd be getting the sort of attention that Nowitzki gets, but unfortunately when you're not making deep playoffs run and you have no help, you don't get any credit.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ Dec 26 2006, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dirk was #1 on the MVP monitor (the most accurate MVP predictor out there) the last two years. Pierce wasn't in the top 10.Dirk was #3 in MVP votes the last two years. Pierce wasn't in the top ten.I believe that's sufficient evidence.</div>That is a terrible way to support your arguement....Pierce doesn't have the supporting cast to win the MVP, let alone win over 45 games...But, I think this is an easy one in Dirks favor. I think that if you took out Dirk of the Mavs, and put in Paul, they wouldnt be as good. Big men are more reliable, and in Dirk's case, he brings SO much to the game. He can shoot the 3 ball as well as anybody in the league, he can play defense if he needs to, he is a good rebounder for not being around the basket as much as other big men, and I think he is a good leader. I am not going to take anything away from Paul....he is a great competitor and basketball player. But Dirk is frankly on a different level than Paul. He is a winner....Its unfortunate to say that because Paul deserves to be a winner, but the fact of the matter is, he hasnt gotten the teammattes to win games, so he has been left behind.
Dirk is getting a lot of help this year. Dallas is 2-0 so far when Dirk misses most of the game. Josh Howard and Devean George have really helped Dirk. I haven't kept track of Paul Pierce but his teams record is not looking good.
Dirk is still amazing regardless of his help..I still say him and Pierce are equal players but can't be compared because there is a difference in style of play and positionPierce can be as good as Kobe or Lebron on any given night..I mean he's dropped 40+ a few times when playing against them..even 50+..Dirk can be like KG or Duncan on any given nightthey both have potential to be the best player in the league on any given night..it's too hard to compare because of their differences
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Dec 26 2006, 01:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But, I think this is an easy one in Dirks favor. I think that if you took out Dirk of the Mavs, and put in Paul, they wouldnt be as good. Big men are more reliable, and in Dirk's case, he brings SO much to the game. He can shoot the 3 ball as well as anybody in the league, he can play defense if he needs to, he is a good rebounder for not being around the basket as much as other big men, and I think he is a good leader. I am not going to take anything away from Paul....he is a great competitor and basketball player. But Dirk is frankly on a different level than Paul. He is a winner....Its unfortunate to say that because Paul deserves to be a winner, but the fact of the matter is, he hasnt gotten the teammattes to win games, so he has been left behind.</div>Well in response to the first paragraph, obviously when you build a team around a certain player, inter-changing him with someone of a different position and playing style is going to create problems. Without Dirk the Mavs would be weak at the PF position and would lose a lot of scoring, the same way that the Celtics would without Pierce. I don't necessarily think that Celtics would be as good as people seem to think with Dirk on the team instead of Paul. We've never seen how Dirk performs without a good supporting cast, and the Celtics defense would be even worse than it currently is. I think they're on the same level in terms of scoring, both are versatile but they score in different ways, so I think that's a wash.My real point here is that Dirk gets the credit (as you stated) because he's a winner, a chance Paul's never gotten, and that's not his fault. Tracy McGrady wasn't any less of a player when the Magic went what, 0-19? to start the season. If Paul had help he would be winning games, we've seen it the few years that he was playing alongside another All-Star, even with a sh*tty supporting cast. I just feel that your point that Dirk is the better player due to the fact that he's reached the Finals and makes deep playoff runs every year to be unfair.
