<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diawsome @ Jan 1 2007, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>While that is a strong case for Howard it at the same time makes an equally impressive argument for Marion. He is possibly the only player who can put up 20 a game without being that "go-to-guy" or having plays ran for him which makes him that much better, it is also that reason why the point guard he plays with doesn't improve his game all that much as the bulk of his offense comes from tip-ins/put backs and lobs.</div>Umm, you do know that J Howard is known for putting up 20 + points a night as the secondary guy right? I mean this win streak is littered with him being "the guy"...but during most of the season he's secondary at best.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marvinmartian @ Jan 1 2007, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Umm, you do know that J Howard is known for putting up 20 + points a night as the secondary guy right? I mean this win streak is littered with him being "the guy"...but during most of the season he's secondary at best.</div>Yes I know that just as I know there are nights where Marion puts up 20+ where he isn't an option at all and gets everything through offensive rebounds and tip ins. On average Marion is the 4th/5th option on the Suns behind Amare, Nash, Barbosa and Bell which is what makes his offensive production that much more impressive.
Howard and marion are opposites. Howard is much better than his stats indicate and is clutch. Marion is worse than his stats indicate and is a choke artist. On a normal team, marion, on a contender: Howard
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diawsome @ Jan 2 2007, 02:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>While that is a strong case for Howard it at the same time makes an equally impressive argument for Marion. He is possibly the only player who can put up 20 a game without being that "go-to-guy" or having plays ran for him which makes him that much better, it is also that reason why the point guard he plays with doesn't improve his game all that much as the bulk of his offense comes from tip-ins/put backs and lobs.</div>I just find it more valuable to a team if you have a player that is good to great at creating their own shot rather than totally rely on other players and rebounds to score. Both are very good players but I'll take one that can create for themself and do it efficiently.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Jan 1 2007, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I just find it more valuable to a team if you have a player that is good to great at creating their own shot rather than totally rely on other players and rebounds to score. Both are very good players but I'll take one that can create for themself and do it efficiently.</div>See this is the thing that other people don't understand, it's not just other people creating his shooting oppurtunities. Sure, he scores alot off of passes, but it's him that gets open. It's not Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Stephon Marbury, or any of those point guards that got him open, it's him moving without the ball and able to find the open space on the court that gets him open. A player like him that moves without the ball, and doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be effective is a very valuable player to have. He is an excellent garbage man, able to grab rebounds and get put backs well. Marion finds open space as well as anyone. He runs the floor, and fills the lanes on the fast break as well as anyone else in the league. He has a good shot that helps the other people know that he is worth passing to. He is a very good player to have on the court, and could fit into any offense in the league in my opinion.
^The same could be said for Josh Howard. He goes towards the boards for offensive rebounds, cuts towards the basket more then any Maverick. But he also can create his own offense whether it be downlow posting up or shooting a perimeter jump. The Mavs offense doesn't have that Nash type of creator and relies more on individual play, cutting and the old drive and kick. In all makes Howard a more all around player than Marion because not only is his offense more well rounded but he possesses the same skills Marion does in rebounding and defense(I feel Marion may be a better defender by a little but let's face it I don't see either as a lock down defender). I feel neither are a good passer, so I've disregarded that from this comparison. So therefore, imo I feel Howard is better then Marion.
By the way...when thinking of who's the better defender...Marion's been mentioned for several years now as one of the better defenders in the league...so it just comes easy.But seriously...watch the two guys and you'll see that Howard is just about as good as Marion at this point in their careers...and Josh Howard is several years young and will only improve.There offensive games are comparable...they both rebound, get steals and pass okay...So I'd say it's pretty much a wash...and when something's a wash, you go with the younger guy...that's Josh.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marvinmartian @ Jan 1 2007, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>By the way...when thinking of who's the better defender...Marion's been mentioned for several years now as one of the better defenders in the league...so it just comes easy.But seriously...watch the two guys and you'll see that Howard is just about as good as Marion at this point in their careers...and Josh Howard is several years young and will only improve.There offensive games are comparable...they both rebound, get steals and pass okay...So I'd say it's pretty much a wash...and when something's a wash, you go with the younger guy...that's Josh.</div>I would give Howard a small edge on offense because of his range, he can beat you indside and out where with Marion you cringe every time he jacks up a 3. They are equals in PPS at 1.33 while Marion holds a small edge in shooting% due to most of his shots coming right underneath the basket. Though neither of them are "shut-down" defenders I would give Marion a small edge on defense. He is a better rebounder and blocker but his biggest contribution on the defensive side of the ball is the havoc he creates in passing lanes, he is I believe 5th in the league in steals and that doesn't include the number of times each game where he manages to break up the offense by deflecting or tipping balls away. Overall I too think it is even between the two but I would take Marion because of what he can do w/o the ball. If need be he can create his own offense which he showed much more frequently during the post kidd/pre-Nash era via backing down into the paint or most often slashing.curse you Oklahoma :ranting:
I can't really disagree completely with what you said...except that I don't think Marion is much better without the ball than Howard...and Howard can create, and has been creating his own shot all year.Besides...if you look at the offenses. The Mavs run a iso offense with not that much passing in the half court set...PHX not only has a horrible half court set, but they play a running and passing style game...So I don't think Marion has to do that much creating as you think...Howard actually does more based mainly on the offense the two guys play in.
Howard has been playing great this year, I really didn't expect it. I'll give him that though.I would trust myself a lot more by picking Marion for my team, he's proven who he is and what he is capable of to me. Josh Howard needs another year like this year to prove himself to me.Like Justice said, depends on how you look at it.
