Dame and CJ long term - has your opinion changed?

This is where I was dead wrong. I thought he was a SG all the way. He did not seem to handle the pressure of bringing the ball up court in the summer league and I thought he would struggle even more against better talent. From the film I saw of him in college he was usually the SG and it is rare for college SG's to slide to PG in the NBA .

To me the PG position is by far the toughest position to play in the NBA. You either have the skills early on or you never fully develop them . CJ certainly surprised me when Dame was out with his injury. He did a great job of leading the team.

Getting minutes as the back up PG has allowed CJ to play 35 minutes a game. I was thinking he would average around 28 mpg.

 

Westbrook is averaging over 10 assists per game. I'm not sure if I agree with you on that one.

I'm not talking about pass-first. The idea of a pass-first point guard is essentially dead. Dame isn't pass first either. I'm talking about making the right decision with the ball. Dame talked about this in his Q&A with ESPN.

"Scoop: You play attack-mode type of ball from the point-guard position. Do you see the shift in the game and style of team play affecting the way you play at all?

Lillard: Naw. Just because the way I play, I play the right way. You know, I'm not the kind of player that is going to dribble the air out of the ball, I'm not going to not make the right play to a guy that's open, I'm not going to notexecute our offense.

You know, if we get out in transition and it looks like somebody is backpedaling and I can get an advantage, I'm gonna attack them. If we come off of a pick-and-roll and one of their bigs is off-balance, I'm going to attack them. If I got a shot, I'm going to raise up and shoot it, but if the guy is up and I don't have a shot at the rim and I see our big diving, I'm gonna hit the big. If it's the fourth quarter and I only have 10 points and our big is open, I'ma hit our big. I'ma always make the right play, I'm always going to play the game unselfishly, but that's what I do. I come out there and I attack. I go after people. And that's the way it should be."

Pass-first, to me, would be a guy who is looking to always make the right pass. Shooting would be secondary in his mind. Dame definitely seems to be a scorer first, but he seems to always be reading the defense. He's like a zone-read QB out there. He can make the pass, and if it presents itself he will find the open man, but he's also looking for an opening so he can call his own number and take it to the house.

 

I wonder what Dame's assists stats would look like if he had as good of a shooter at the SF spot as Durant is.

 

Probably closer to 9 per game. Westbrook put up 8.6 assists last year, with Durant only playing 27 total games.

 

This is an idea we've kicked around at BlazersEdge, and something I brought up in the McCollum profile- unless the deal is for an "A" level star the return on the deal just isn't worth it. While CJ has definitely improved, there's still some things I would like to see from him on a more consistent basis- free throws, defense, finishing inside. Those are the same things I harped on before- and they're getting better. However, I don't see him as un-tradeable. Lillard has elevated himself to that status, and I fully believe he's there to stay.

CJ, while a phenomenal talent, I still don't think he ticks all the boxes of a superstar. Borderline all-star? Sure. Superstar? I don't think so. That's not in any way a knock against him, there are only so many superstars in this league, and who knows- maybe a 3rd star player finds their way to Portland in the off season and only minimal/expected growth is necessary for McCollum.

 

Westbrook and Kyrie are totally opposite sides of the spectrum. RWB has this thing that everyone sees him as a black hole- he's one of the best playmakers in the NBA and has been for the last few years- meanwhile the actual black hole, Kyrie is seen as this dynamic playmaker.

I'm not sure if it was good/bad PR on both their parts or what, but all the numbers point to RWB>>>>>>> Kyrie in the playmaking category... by miles.

As to your original point, CJ is better than Terry, Kyrie, and Mo at setting up an offense- probably ahead of IT, but I'd have to take a look at some of the underlying numbers. Yes, it's +++++ to having the SG also be a fantastic facilitator however that redundancy could also be an issue if either is injured. (Which is why I loved the Roberts insurance pick up) But that's neither here nor there, bottom line- CJ is a better facilitator than a lot of "PGs" in the NBA- probably the best playmaking 2 as things currently sit (debate between him and Harden- but Harden has the ball soon much more, and the turnovers), but putting him on the same level as Westbrook just isn't right.

 

CJ doesn't make the right decision with the ball near as often as Dame. Dame is truly great at it. One great thing about Dame is he knows when to pass early in the clock and not dribble at all. Basically the anti-Damon Stoudamire.

Players aren't going to be great at everything its always a balance of positives and negatives. CJ is superior to Dame in a number of areas; his floaters, handles, crafty plays, accuracy, turnovers, finishing at the rim. Westbrook averages tons of assists partly because he dominates the ball and holds it until the last second when only he can score or get an assist. Westbrook makes tons of poor decisions with the ball. CJ from day 1 was similar to Kyrie and many legit PG's in the NBA that create their own shot but don't quarterback an offense.

 

Good points. My views on Westbrook are controversial. I still think Westbrook is a top15 player and far above CJ. His physicality and ability to get to the rim is second to none. I just thought from a pure 'setup an offense' perspective they have similar shortcommings.

But yeah if you ignore Westbrook from my argument thats the point I was trying to make. Thanks.

 

Well, I've posted before that I think he could be the starting point guard on another team and put up All-Star numbers. He gave us a taste of that when Dame was out. But my point was that he hadn't shown much of that ability before this season. I was skeptical of him playing any minutes at point guard. All of those strengths that you listed: floaters, handles, crafty plays, accuracy, turnovers, finishing at the rim; those all make him a great scorer, but not necessarily a point guard. He has shown a much better ability to find the open man this season, and run the offense.

 

Funny, finishing at the rim is the past thing I put CJ above Lillard at.

 

One thing people tend to forget about Dame is that he wasn't this amazing passer coming into the league. He made the RIGHT pass more often than anything. However, he still doesn't take the right risk/reward scenarios all that often, he's not a flashy/creative passer, and he's one of the worst lob tossing PGs in recent memory (this drives me crazy by the way b/c I love me some lobs! RIP Andre Miller's lob passes).

However, he has greatly improved his efficiency, particularly on the drive and kick game. His drives are down, but his points per pass, assist %, hockey assists, and shot percentage increased by passes are all up significantly over the last 2+ months. If this was a course of 10 games I could say small sample size, but it appears he's really turned a corner in this aspect of his game.

Besides his scoring outbursts and improvements across the board there- his passing/driving is something that I'm going to go deeper into on the podcast tomorrow. There's a lot there that doesn't get discussed normally, and with the extra day I'm now working it in.

 

Yeah, I wish he threw more lobs. Plumlee is a guy who would benefit from playing with someone like an Andre Miller.

 

Yeah but how higher would Westbrook be if he had CJ 40% 3 point shooting in place of Andre Roberson 25%?

Damn did I just defend Westbrook...

 

Dame and RW play very similarly though, in that they get into the paint and then kick it out or hand it off for a dunk. Dame takes a lot more threes though, which might account for the lower assist numbers. Dame is 2nd in the league in 3PA per game, while RW is tied for 44th.

 

From 3-10 feet CJ is 45% for his career and Dame is 30%. Dame is 32% this season. That might be more floater range than at the rim but its an area on the court CJ is among the best in the league at while Dame is below average.

 

I guess I'd understand the dilemma if CJ were just an undersized scorer, kind of like Wall and Beal in Washington. Beal isn't really a playmaker so the teams defensive issues are more noticeable if Beal isn't shooting well. CJ is the perfect compliment to DL because of how he runs that 2nd team and how interchangeable those two are. Will CJ ever be the scorer that DL or Paul George are? Probably not, but it's not like Paul George and CJ are interchangeable. What kind of attention does a disgruntled star need? How many shots are they taking? How does the offense flow with a guy that requires X amount of iso looks a game?
CJ is the perfect Robin because he doesn't require a bunch of shots to be effective. Plus you take DL out and have CJ run the show and there isn't a drop off in how things flow out there. How many teams can you say that about? Someone mentioned the Clippers and if you take CP out, you have Crawford running the show which basically means that Crawford just takes a bunch of shots. CJ is a facilitator which gives you two guys that can get others open shots.
If I'm a shooter, Portland has to be the first place I'm looking to go because of how those two can penetrate. You mean that not only do I have Lillard getting me open shots, but there's this other guy that can do the exact same thing? If I'm Harrison Barnes, I'm saying sign me up for that.
Spacing and shooting is where this league is at and you have two guys that can do and set up those very things. Why on earth would you give that up?

 

Definitely not at the rim range.