I can understand not having the guy over Kobe or Nash. Both of them are having amazing seasons and their teams are doing spectacular. But I think Arenas is being overrated this year. I mean, the guy is having an incredible season, and he is a fantastic offensive player. No doubt about it....But, his team isnt doing as well as everyone is saying that they are. They have a decent record, but it wouldnt be any better than a 7th seed in the western conference. Also, his supporting cast is very underrated. Butler and Jamison are very good players for 2nd and 3rd options, and they have alot of role players that can score and grab rebounds. Kobe finished I think 4th in the MVP votings last season where he averaged over 35 a game, and where his team did pretty much just as good as the Wizards are doing this year. Why is Arenas being treated any different?
Unfortunately it seems that the "MVP criteria" changes from year to year. I remember when Kareem won it and his team was 30-52! These days you practically have to win the f*cking title to even be considered. Also, remember when Tim Duncan won it in 2002? Jason Kidd was robbed that year, yet in 2005 Nash won the award for doing the exact same thing in Phoenix that Kidd did in New Jersey. And unfortunately, Arenas may get more consideration for doing exactly what Kobe did only a year ago.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jan 22 2007, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I can understand not having the guy over Kobe or Nash. Both of them are having amazing seasons and their teams are doing spectacular. But I think Arenas is being overrated this year. I mean, the guy is having an incredible season, and he is a fantastic offensive player. No doubt about it....But, his team isnt doing as well as everyone is saying that they are. They have a decent record, but it wouldnt be any better than a 7th seed in the western conference. Also, his supporting cast is very underrated. Butler and Jamison are very good players for 2nd and 3rd options, and they have alot of role players that can score and grab rebounds. Kobe finished I think 4th in the MVP votings last season where he averaged over 35 a game, and where his team did pretty much just as good as the Wizards are doing this year. Why is Arenas being treated any different?</div>Because his team is #1 in the conference. yes, East is much weaker than the West, but Lakers finished only in 7th last season. I personally thought last year that Bron was the #1 candidate and Kobe #2.Arenas is having the best statisitical season of the bunch, has been absolutely incredible in the clutch, and they are #1 in the conference. yes, he does have help, but his team seriously falls off when he is not on the floor. I'd say due to his stats being so much more appealing to the eye than Dirk, all his clutch moments, his 50+ point games, and his team being #1 in the East warrant him being ahead of Dirk in voting.
Yeah, the MVP voting can get kinda weird at times. Although, I dont think that Jason Kidd got robbed that season. Tim Duncan proved in the playoffs and in the finals why he was voted the MVP. NJ had a pretty good team that season, and they pretty much got mand handled in the finals against the Spurs. Both of the players had good seasons, but I dont think it was necessarilly a "robbing" from Kidd. If you want to make the case that Duncan won it the previous year, then that might be a way to look at things, but then you look at a guy like Nash who might win it 3 years in a row...
I was watching SportCenter this morning and it only had Nash, Dirk, and Gil in the race for the MVP. I can see Kobe in fourth though, but I think he's in the running enough that he should be mentioned along with those guys.
Ok I love Kobe as much as a straight man can love a straight man, but he isn't having an MVP type season IMO. He's definately a canidate, but he won't win. IMO it should be Dirk because the Mavs are the best team and he's the best player. But if the Suns take the 1 seed it may be Steve Nash. The Lakers are 26-15, and don't even lead their division. If Kobe was going to win the MVP, it should of been last year, despite the 7th seed, Kobe had the best scoring season in history and that was probably the only chance that it would be exceptional for him to win it. But it's still very early, we aren't even through half way of the season yet.GO LAKERS!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jan 22 2007, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Because his team is #1 in the conference. yes, East is much weaker than the West, but Lakers finished only in 7th last season. I personally thought last year that Bron was the #1 candidate and Kobe #2.Arenas is having the best statisitical season of the bunch, has been absolutely incredible in the clutch, and they are #1 in the conference. yes, he does have help, but his team seriously falls off when he is not on the floor. I'd say due to his stats being so much more appealing to the eye than Dirk, all his clutch moments, his 50+ point games, and his team being #1 in the East warrant him being ahead of Dirk in voting.</div>I think that you should honestly throw out the fact that his team is #1 in the east. I mean, the competition is so much worse than the west that it is ridiculous. And if the Wizards were in the western conferece, not only would they have the 7th best record, but it would most likely be even worse due to tougher competition. Ok then, why didnt Kobe Bryant win it last year if you think that Arenas should definitely be in the top 3 voting? Hell, Kobe got the 4th most votes last year when he averaged a remarkable 35.4 PPG, had MORE 50 point games, an 81 point game, a 62 point game agaisnt the mavs in 3 quarters, and many other ridiculous accomplishments. He led that team to a 7th seed in the west and his team put up a great fight agaisnt a good Phoenix team. What makes Arenas so much more of a standout than Bryant last year? There was none at all. In fact, Kobe had a better season last year than Arenas is having this season, and his team did just as good.Take Kobe off of the floor last year and this team does terrible as well. That didnt seem to make a difference in the voters eyes. If you take out a franchise player like Arenas, your team is expected to do worse. It happens with most teams that dont have amazing supporting casts. When Dirk goes off the floor, his team obviously does worse. Since they have a better supporting cast, they dont do as bad as some of the other teams, but that is expected. I think that Dirk being the best player on his team, leading them to an amazing record in a very VERY tough western conference should put him ahead of Arenas. It really depends on the way you look at things, and we obviously look at them in different ways.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jan 22 2007, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think that you should honestly throw out the fact that his team is #1 in the east. I mean, the competition is so much worse than the west that it is ridiculous. And if the Wizards were in the western conferece, not only would they have the 7th best record, but it would most likely be even worse due to tougher competition. Ok then, why didnt Kobe Bryant win it last year if you think that Arenas should definitely be in the top 3 voting? Hell, Kobe got the 4th most votes last year when he averaged a remarkable 35.4 PPG, had MORE 50 point games, an 81 point game, a 62 point game agaisnt the mavs in 3 quarters, and many other ridiculous accomplishments. He led that team to a 7th seed in the west and his team put up a great fight agaisnt a good Phoenix team. What makes Arenas so much more of a standout than Bryant last year? There was none at all. In fact, Kobe had a better season last year than Arenas is having this season, and his team did just as good.</div>No matter the difference in competition, #1 in east is far more appealing to the voters than #7 in the West. Personally I thought LeBron should have won it last year because he had the 50 wins plus had an historic season statistically. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Take Kobe off of the floor last year and this team does terrible as well. That didnt seem to make a difference in the voters eyes. If you take out a franchise player like Arenas, your team is expected to do worse. It happens with most teams that dont have amazing supporting casts. When Dirk goes off the floor, his team obviously does worse. Since they have a better supporting cast, they dont do as bad as some of the other teams, but that is expected.</div>Again, IN MY OPINION I thought Kobe should have been at leats top 2 in voting. Bottom line is he didn't have the record to get the MVP award. I feel the dropoff of Arenas's Wizards from #1 to probably out of playoffs and Kobe's team from #5 seed in West to definately out of playoffs is a bigger dropoff than mavs going from #1 in West to maybe #7 or so.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I think that Dirk being the best player on his team, leading them to an amazing record in a very VERY tough western conference should put him ahead of Arenas. It really depends on the way you look at things, and we obviously look at them in different ways.</div>I think that bottom line is that Arenas has his team at #1 in his respective conference, has much more appealing stats, has been more clutch than Dirk, has had more histroric significance with his 60pt game and multiple 50pt games, and when he doesn't have a big night his team loses. I just can't put Dirk over Nash, Kobe or Arenas, each for different reasons.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nash @ Jan 16 2007, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>STEVIE FOR MVP!</div>I love the signature bro! :happy0144:
If I had to give the MVP out today I would hands down give it to Gilbert Arenas. I mean have you seen this guy he is unbelievable. Ya he might be up and down but when he gets hot he is flat out unstoppable. He can't just score too he is averaging 6.2 assists and 4.5 rebounds per game. If you haven't seen the Wizards play they are an offensive jugernaut. He might be the best player on the court but he is making the other people around him so much better. Caron Butler is having a career year averaging 21 points and 8 rebounds per game while Jamison is putting up his usual 18 points 9 rebounds per game. Also DeShawn Stevenson is having a career year while also having a career high FG percentage. Gilbert Arenas is having scoring performances so often that they could be compared to Michael Jordan they are happening so often. I understand why you guys think that Nash is the MVP but look at the talent he has around him... more than Arenas. Marion, Stoudemire, Barbosa, and Bell sure must make it a lot easier on him. To me Gilbert is the MVP hands down
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jan 22 2007, 11:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No matter the difference in competition, #1 in east is far more appealing to the voters than #7 in the West. Personally I thought LeBron should have won it last year because he had the 50 wins plus had an historic season statistically. Again, IN MY OPINION I thought Kobe should have been at leats top 2 in voting. Bottom line is he didn't have the record to get the MVP award. I feel the dropoff of Arenas's Wizards from #1 to probably out of playoffs and Kobe's team from #5 seed in West to definately out of playoffs is a bigger dropoff than mavs going from #1 in West to maybe #7 or so.I think that bottom line is that Arenas has his team at #1 in his respective conference, has much more appealing stats, has been more clutch than Dirk, has had more histroric significance with his 60pt game and multiple 50pt games, and when he doesn't have a big night his team loses. I just can't put Dirk over Nash, Kobe or Arenas, each for different reasons.</div>Well, being #7 in the west is more appealing to me than #1 in the east considering the conference is alot worse, especially when Kobe averaged 35.4 a game last year. That is the highest PPG in a season in a very long time. Dude, Kobes team had pretty much just as good as a record as the wiz have right now so that should be that much of a difference what so ever. And you dont know that the Mavs would make the playoffs without Dirk. And even if they did, it is retarted to pentalize Dirk for having a better supporting cast. He has more people to share his stats with....That is why Arenas' stat line is better. Plus, he takes a shitload of more shots...He is alot more selfish than Dirk is. Dirk doesn't have to take 20+ shots a game for the Mavs to win. That is very apparent considering the Mavs' record.I am done debating....You are obviously not going to change your mind.
[quote name='ballerman2112' post='269562' date='Jan 22 2007, 11:31 PM']Well, being #7 in the west is more appealing to me than #1 in the east considering the conference is alot worse, especially when Kobe averaged 35.4 a game last year. That is the highest PPG in a season in a very long time.[/quote]Yes, the conference is a lot worse, but they still have to play Western Conference teams, all of them twice a year. This year GA has put up huge games against both the Suns and Mavs and beat both teams. I agree, Kobe's season was absolutely remarkable last year, but his team had only 45 wins and a 7th seed. To the voters that just isn't as appealing as Arenas getting his team a #1 seeding. If Gilbert was having this season last year I'd still probably put Kobe ahead of Arenas in MVP voting personally, but most voters think of record and seeding as being much more of a factor than what you or I do. Right now Wiz have a better winning % by 5% than the Lakers did last year. If they get over 50 wins, which is what they look to be on track of, I just can't see Arenas not getting the MVP with the season he has had. That is where opinion on what warrants an MVP award comes in. I feel that there would be a bigger drop off on the Lakers and Wizards if they lost their superstars moreso than the Mavs would if they lost Dirk. If he doesn't need to play like an MVP to win, then why should he be ahead of 2 players who have to do it on a nightly basis and are on pace to both win over 50 games?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jan 23 2007, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, the conference is a lot worse, but they still have to play Western Conference teams, all of them twice a year. This year GA has put up huge games against both the Suns and Mavs and beat both teams. I agree, Kobe's season was absolutely remarkable last year, but his team had only 45 wins and a 7th seed. To the voters that just isn't as appealing as Arenas getting his team a #1 seeding. If Gilbert was having this season last year I'd still probably put Kobe ahead of Arenas in MVP voting personally, but most voters think of record and seeding as being much more of a factor than what you or I do.Right now Wiz have a better winning % by 5% than the Lakers did last year. If they get over 50 wins, which is what they look to be on track of, I just can't see Arenas not getting the MVP with the season he has had.That is where opinion on what warrants an MVP award comes in. I feel that there would be a bigger drop off on the Lakers and Wizards if they lost their superstars moreso than the Mavs would if they lost Dirk. If he doesn't need to play like an MVP to win, then why should he be ahead of 2 players who have to do it on a nightly basis and are on pace to both win over 50 games?</div>Yeah, your right, they still have to play them twice a year, but look who they are competing with for the top stop in the east? It is pathetic....Just look at the records in the Western Conference and then put the Wizards record in there. It doesn't really stand out now does it....And how do you know what is appealing to the voters? For all you know, they could be saying the same thing I am. So Kobe's team only had 45 wins last year in a tougher conference, but 50 wins right now in a weak conference is deservent of winning the MVP? Sorry, that just doesn't make much sense to me....And yes, of course the dropoff would be worse for the Lakers and Wizards. That is because their supporting cast isnt as good. But you can't pentalize a player for having a good supporting cast. He is still having a good season, and he is the leader of his team this year. Just because you dont score 31 PPG doesn't mean your "not playing like an MVP". Of course he is playing like an MVP. He is shooting a very good percentage and getting 24 a night, he is rebounding the ball decently well, and he is the leader of his team who is leading them to the best record in the entire NBA. The Mavs arent a measly 8 games over 500 like the Wizards are.....The Mavs are on pace to win over 65-68 games which is the most since the Bulls, and Dirk is producing. Just because his stats arent as good as Arenas doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve it as much as Arenas does. Dirk realizes that he doesn't need to be selfish or take 20+ shots a night to win the game. He takes smart shots and makes them, and when the shot clock is down and he is forced to make a shot, he makes it with a high percentage. He is an amazing free throw shooter, a good passing big men, and great at going to the basket and finishing with both hands.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jan 23 2007, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, your right, they still have to play them twice a year, but look who they are competing with for the top stop in the east? It is pathetic....Just look at the records in the Western Conference and then put the Wizards record in there. It doesn't really stand out now does it....And how do you know what is appealing to the voters? For all you know, they could be saying the same thing I am.</div>If wins aren't appealing to voters than Duncan wouldn't have gotten the MVP over Kidd in 01-02, and Kobe would have won it last year. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>So Kobe's team only had 45 wins last year in a tougher conference, but 50 wins right now in a weak conference is deservent of winning the MVP? Sorry, that just doesn't make much sense to me....</div>Again, Wizards have had huge wins with Arenas playing his mind out against some of the West's best....38/8 vs the Mavs, 50+ against the Suns, 60 against the Lakers. The 5-10 extra wins are a big plus for Arenas compared to Kobe last year, but having the top seed in the East is the biggest difference. Just like you say you can't use Dirk's teammates as a grudge against him, well I feel that you shouldn't hold the fact that Arenas' team plays in the weaker conference. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Just because you dont score 31 PPG doesn't mean your "not playing like an MVP". The Mavs arent a measly 8 games over 500 like the Wizards are.....The Mavs are on pace to win over 65-68 games which is the most since the Bulls, and Dirk is producing. Just because his stats arent as good as Arenas doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve it as much as Arenas does. Dirk realizes that he doesn't need to be selfish or take 20+ shots a night to win the game. And yes, of course the dropoff would be worse for the Lakers and Wizards.</div>This is where we differ in opinion of what makes an MVP player. To me you have to win at least 50 games, you need to get the stats, you need to mix in some history, and I feel that if you are going to win an MVP award you need to have MVP like nights on most occasions. Kobe has to, Arenas has to, and even Nash has to moreso than Dirk (mostly because he is PG and can run that offense far better than Barbosa or any of the other backups).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jan 23 2007, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If wins aren't appealing to voters than Duncan wouldn't have gotten the MVP over Kidd in 01-02, and Kobe would have won it last year. Again, Wizards have had huge wins with Arenas playing his mind out against some of the West's best....38/8 vs the Mavs, 50+ against the Suns, 60 against the Lakers. The 5-10 extra wins are a big plus for Arenas compared to Kobe last year, but having the top seed in the East is the biggest difference. Just like you say you can't use Dirk's teammates as a grudge against him, well I feel that you shouldn't hold the fact that Arenas' team plays in the weaker conference. This is where we differ in opinion of what makes an MVP player. To me you have to win at least 50 games, you need to get the stats, you need to mix in some history, and I feel that if you are going to win an MVP award you need to have MVP like nights on most occasions. Kobe has to, Arenas has to, and even Nash has to moreso than Dirk (mostly because he is PG and can run that offense far better than Barbosa or any of the other backups).</div>Kobe's team last year won 45 games, and you are saying that the Wiz are on pace to win around 50 games. Thats like a 5 game difference...its not that big of a difference is all I am saying. And to make my point sound better, Nowitzki's team has the best record in the NBA. Even if his supporting cast is good, the voters might think that alot of it has to do with them....Which I think it does.Im not holding it against Arenas that his team is in a weaker conference, but I am holding it against the Wizards as a team. And considering Arenas is the leader and the best player on the Wizards, it is pinned on Arenas. The two situations are completley different that you compared. In Dirk's situation, you know that he is capable of scoring more in a season. Hell, he did it last season. But now, his minutes are down, and he is taking less shots, and the team is winning. He knows that. Since its working, what is the need for him to take more shots? Personally, I think that is a very good thing that he isn't selfish. It just shows how much of a leader he really is.When you were describing the things that you felt a player needed to win the MVP, dirk fit all of them except for the last one. Dirk puts up very good stats, he just doesn't score as much as Arenas because he doesn't force as many shots, or take as many shots. He shoots a higher percentage, and I think that is a main thing to look at. And you cant really say its beacuse Dirk is a big man, because alot of his shots come from the perimeter. And the only reason Dirk doesn't have big nights most nights is because his team doesn't need it to win sometimes. Him getting 24 and 10 a night is good enough for him, and if it formulates to team success, there is nothing wrong with it. He doesn't play as much as Arenas which is another reason why he doesn't score as much. And another thing.....Kobe Bryant doesn't need to dominate the games in order for the Lakers to win. If Kobe Bryant scores 24 points in a game, and he shoots a good percentage, the Lakers have just as good as a chance of winning if Kobe scores 45 points. Kobe's teammattes can score the ball and that has been proven this year. He doesn't need to score 35.4 PPG this year to win. That has been shown throughout the season....And Nash doesn't really have more MVP nights than Dirk. In my mind, it is just as easy for Nash to get an assist on that team as it is for Dirk to get a rebound. Nash dominates the ball so much and he has so many options to score, that it is so easy for him to get that amount of assits. If you put a guy like Andre Miller, Jason Kidd, or Brevin Knight on that team, I would almost bet you that they would average around the same assists that Nash does. And, Dirk scores more than Nash does as well.....AND, Nash's team has more talent, but look whose teams has the better record.
^Well I think Dallas has more overall talent...but offensive talent, the Suns take the cake in that department.All we're saying Nitro is that you are basically dismissing Dirk, like he shouldn't even be in the discussion, and that's wrong.He's having another MVP type season, just like last year, is pretty much unguardable, and improves year after year...of the 4 main guys listed, who improves every single year on any aspect of their game?I know Nash's numbers improve, but he's still the same player, he doesn't improve any facets of his game, he just passes the ball more and shoots a good %.
[quote name='ballerman2112' post='269638' date='Jan 23 2007, 01:08 AM']Im not holding it against Arenas that his team is in a weaker conference, but I am holding it against the Wizards as a team. And considering Arenas is the leader and the best player on the Wizards, it is pinned on Arenas. The two situations are completley different that you compared. In Dirk's situation, you know that he is capable of scoring more in a season. Hell, he did it last season. But now, his minutes are down, and he is taking less shots, and the team is winning. He knows that. Since its working, what is the need for him to take more shots? Personally, I think that is a very good thing that he isn't selfish. It just shows how much of a leader he really is.[/quote]I just don't think that you should be above guys like Kobe and Arenas when your team doesn't need you to be big every night and need you to have MVP caliber nights most nights. Dirk rarely needs to take over scoring load anymore, while Arenas and Kobe have to do it far more often (along with playmaking since they are the best playmakers on their respective teams). You make it seem like Arenas hurts his team by taking so many shots or forcing shots. Without him going for 60, they would have been beaten in regulation by the Lakers. If he didn't go for 50 against the Suns, it's a loss. If he didn't go for 38/8 against the Mavs, another loss. If he doesn't hit those buzzer beating shots from the 3, they lose those games. Like Kobe last year, GA's team needs his huge nights to get wins, moreso than any other MVP candidate. And it has worked, say what you want about the East, but they are #1. Since Lamar went down his scoring has went from about 25PPG to 30PPG. He has 3 50pt games this season (all of them needed for his team to win), quite a few 40pt games, many games where he had to defend best player on opposite side while having nearly the whole scoring load on his shoulder sin the 4th, etc.. He ha salso had to do the bulk of the playmaking. This year the lakers have more weapons than last year, and they are running the offense a lot more efficiently, but they still need Kobe on most nights to go for 30+ (with Lamar not so much, but from the time he went down to when he comes back). Dirk's team is what, 1 game ahead? And yes, Dirk scores more, but if you're gonna use FG % against GA, then you can do same against Dirk with Steve. Nash has had many, many games this season where the other team clamps down on shooters and when he is expected to score and hit in clutch, and he always comes through. He is averaging the most APG in a long time, playing fantastic in clutch, on pace for over 60 wins just like the Mavs, and is having a career year. You say Kidd and Miller could have as many APG, but I guarantee neither of them scores as many PPG or averages it on nearly as good of FG %.
