<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rok @ Jan 21 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Honestly, Nitro I don't think you addressed my point at all yet. Bottom line, tell me one single team in this league that can consistently stop a team's superstar? One team. Have a good time searching for that. As for those guys you mention in this post. Like I said, these teams weren't exactly stopping us or our superstar for that matter, which is why we won those games. So like a broken record, every team struggles in the same department. But yet it's only those guys against Dallas you bother bringing it up. All that shows to me is a reason for you to pick something negative on Dallas just for the sake of it. That's all I can gather from picking a moot point to argue.</div>I NEVER said Dallas has to stop anyone. You ultimately can't stop a superstar. But you can't let them totally go off on you. It will come back to bite you in the a$$ in the postseason. It almost cost Phoenix in game 6 of playoffs last year vs Lakers, almsot cost you guys against Spurs, DID cost you against the Heat, did cost you against Suns 2 years back (yeah yeah, both teams are different now, but Amare and Nash still rip you guys up and had it not been for a very tough jumper by Dirk that game coulda went to the Suns).You keep saying no one can stop your superstar's therefor it's not a big deal, but look what happenned against Miami in the Finals. Dirk was slowed down, Wade wasn't. What happenned? You guys lost the series.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>This post is so easy to switch around, it's just stupid. I mean seriously Nitro, this is one sided bias here. But I would like to point first off, how Duncan did not hit his "clutch shots". What irony.Second, this shows the Spurs weakness in not being able to guard superstars. Dirk Nowitzki had a big series as well and proved that with his clutch play in the 4th quarter into overtime. So therefore, why is this just a Dallas weakness?</div>Duncan had fairly easy oppertunities. Was RIGHT UNDER THE BASKET in last few seconds of game 7 vs you guys, missed a shot he usually makes in game 3 (?) to tie/win the game. Why even tempt the fate of what happenned to you guys in the Finals? Why are you so settled on squeeking out victories like that that could go either way (as Spurs fans know well from 03-04 when Fisher buries the .04 shot)? If they just do a better on superstar players and not let them totally go off (which other teams do have the capabilities of doing) then they will be much better and easily the best team in the league. When did I ever bring up the Spurs? Rarely do they let a player totally go off on them. Dirk is a bit special because he was too big for Bowen. Bowen shut him down on the perimet (Dirk shot only 13% from 3), but he couldn't defend him down low or prevent him from grabbing 13RPG. Other teams have players that give Dirk more problems, and that could have been the difference in that series....1pt.
For someone to use the Spurs/Mavs series and how different that could be. I could use that on this series as well. Besides from a meltdown in the final minutes of game 6 against the Suns, the Mavs had a 14 pt lead in that 4th quarter and it took a Nash 3 point shot(a bad mistake by Terry) for them to win in overtime. Just like Mavs did against the Spurs. It's not a big deal because every team has the same weakness. My point on our superstar going off is that team's struggle just like Dallas does. If a team let's Dirk go off, that's basically the same weakness as your attributing to Dallas. A moot point. I'm sorry but I don't remember blowouts or a wins by a double digits being common among games between contending teams. Most of them are going to be close. I brought them up to show you that every team struggles with this. And if there was team you would probably mention as a team that does not struggle in this department. Would likely be the Spurs. But as far as I'm concerned, they've been burned this year as well by opposing superstars. So again, point me out one team that does not impose the same weakness.
Rok is right, all teams struggle with containing opponents star players. If you watched the Spurs against the Lakers the other day, Kobe Bryant complelty killed the Spurs. He shot an amazing percentage, and absolutley dominated Bruce Bowen every chance he got. Dirk Nowitzki always kills against the Spurs as well. Plus, I dont think it even matters if the Mavs let the other star players do well against them. As long as they get the win, there is nothing wrong with it. Night in and night you, you basically know what you are going to get out of a star player, but you really dont with role players. So, the Mavs know that if they can control the role players on a team, they put themselves in a very good chance to win...
I'm waiting for nitro to provide me insight on one team that can consistently slow down opposing superstars. If he can, then through all this babble, I conceed. But I'm confident that in this league, there's no team like that. And that's the gist of my point and I'm tired of nitro pointing it out like it's funny Dallas has this weakness. Give me a break, like Dallas is the only contender with that issue.
And even if they were the only team with that issue (which they definitely arent), it doesn't seem to be bothering them at all considering they have the best record in the NBA. Opposing stars are suppossed to do good almost every game. That is what gives them the name "All-Stars" or "stars".
[quote name='Rok' post='268424' date='Jan 21 2007, 10:22 PM']For someone to use the Spurs/Mavs series and how different that could be. I could use that on this series as well. Besides from a meltdown in the final minutes of game 6 against the Suns, the Mavs had a 14 pt lead in that 4th quarter and it took a Nash 3 point shot(a bad mistake by Terry) for them to win in overtime. Just like Mavs did against the Spurs.[/quote]The Suns totally outplayed them for the most part in that series though. It wasn't as close of a series as Spurs/Mavs was. We can keep playing this game, as if Yao didn't drop a few easy passes or T-mac hit those free throws, Houston would have beaten the Mavs that year. My point being is that you guys will have lots of close calls, and possibly will be downed early if you can't slow down the opposing superstar. I'm not saying stop the opposing player, but hold him toa verage, don't let him go off for 30/12 or 40PPG through 4 straight games. Every team does NOT have the same weakness. Some teams might struggle mightily with some stars or defensively at certain positions. Example- Heat ALWAYS get burned by LeBron James, AI always destroys the Bucks, Shaq always kills the Nets, etc... But the mavs have shown they can't stop all star caliber players at any position (PG- Nash, SG- Kobe, SF- TMac, PF- Duncan, C-Amare).They don't have any lockdown defenders at any position. They play feisty defense and good team defense, but they don't have the kind of player that can really clamp down on any player, nor do they have truly any great defenders to begin with. The Heat have players that can do it, Lakers have it, Rockets have it, Spurs have it, but the Mavs don't. In the playoffs they will face teams that will clamp down on either Howard or Dirk, but the Mavs won't have an answer for the other team's superstar. They're going to be close, but when Dirk is having an off night or is being defended well, they won't be able to win as they can't slow down the Kobe's, T-Mac's, Amare's and Wade's of the league. Yes, they are an elite group, but Mavs will have to face them in the playoffs (Suns and Rockets having multiple superstars that can kill you and both teams have given Mavs problems in the past when healthy). Again, MOST of the elite teams either have lockdown type defenders that will give either Dirk or Howard problems on any given night. Dallas doesn't have that, and I promise you that will cost them in the playoffs when they will have to face the star-studded West. They may be doing great in the regular season, but in the playoffs it will be magnified.Outside of maybe the Suns, there are few teams in the league that constantly get pulverized by opposing star players. I'm not talking just getting 30pts, either....Kobe dropped 63 on them through 3 quarter last year, Wade went for 40PPG through last 4 games of Finals, T-Mac had 45 this year, Amare had 25/13, Yao went for 36 on 12-16 shooting, Nash always murders you guys, JO had 26/9/5, GA went for 38/8 on 15-27 shooting, AI went for 28/8 on 10-17 shooting, Wade went for 31/6/6 on 12-21 shooting, etc...Bottom line is I bring it up so often because after what Nash/Amare did to you 2 years ago, what Kobe and wade did to you last year, and what seems to be a reoccuring trend this year, I just get so sick of hearing people say they are one of the top 2-3 defensive teams in the league. I'm just not buying it, and I find it funny whenever another star goes off on you guys. My whole point is that you guys would be so much improved and these extremely close games and series' that could go either way wouldn't happen if you guys could just do a better job on opposing superstars. You can't let them totally go off.
I think you are looking too much into one player on a team. It takes 5 baby. Wade didn't win the championship by himself despite the hype. Many things happened other than Wade to help Miami out. Refs, Mavs whining about the refs, Josh Howard off on jumper, and etc. Dallas has solid defenders but maybe not lockdown material. PG HarrisSG Greg BucknerSF Devean GeorgeC Dampier/Diop. Diop can also guard power forwards. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The Heat have players that can do it, Lakers have it, Rockets have it, Spurs have it, but the Mavs don't. In the playoffs they will face teams that will clamp down on either Howard or Dirk, but the Mavs won't have an answer for the other team's superstar.</div>Who are the heat shutdown defenders? Are they better than the ones mentioned above? I don't see any lockdown defenders there. The rockets don't have it. Dirk owns Battier. Bowen has lost a step and even when he was at his best Kobe still exploited Bowen big time in the 03-04 playoffs. Superstars tend to do better in big games than role players. 1 game from Mcgrady and 1 from Wade this year is not enough imo to say the Mavs are weak on defense.
Right, so that explains why I've seen those 5 guys you listed against the Mavs not play well against other teams. Because it's only Dallas who can't contain them from going off. Every team has the same weakness. Slowing down opposing superstars is a problem every team faces. Quit trying to put it on Dallas only. This is just laughable. What game are we playing? I'm not playing any game, you keep trying to find ways to play off wins Dallas earned. Woulda, shoulda, couldas, Dallas still won those games. That's how it's going to happen in basketball, the ball bounces one way, and a team comes out the victor. My point on the Suns/Mavs is exactly the same point you reference with the Spurs/Mavs. It came down to the wire that bounced to the Suns. Suns won that year, and the Mavs won the following year. Big fricken deal, I'm not the one using the woulda shoulda couldas. Lakers, Rockets have great defensive players? What? Who are they? I give you Spurs with Bowen but he's also been burned. So that makes your point moot again. Right, so are you telling me Wade, Tmac and Amare can't have off nights as well? Man you have so many holes with what your saying. Just like last season, oh wait, last year doesn't count. Because Dallas just squeaked by. Right. Does he really? I seem to remember games he had some high turnovers in. How about noticing that huh? Always murdering us, give me a break. Wow, is this so, well than explain how ESPN ran a deal on the Spurs being creamed by opposing superstars in a week? I mean seriously, I can go on about every team and look up their games and see how the opposing superstar did. Than emphasize their numbers and show that it's just not Dallas. Ok, so you agreed with me on contending games being close but here you totally disregard it.
Hey Rok, mavsfan, just let it go...Nitro is one of those guys that will go on and on, saying non sensical crap to confuse everyone, just so he can say he didn't lose this arguement.He doens't seem to look at the overall big picture...the Mavs win games.They didn't lose the Championship last year because of one player, they lost because of alot of factors, Haslem playing out of his mind D on Dirk, Josh finally hit a wall, so did Harris, and they just weren't ready to win a title yet...all that on top of not having an answer for Wade was their downfall last year.Besides, let's get this strait...the Mavs were within holding a double digit lead from going up 3-0 in that series and most likely winning it...so let's not go acting like they didn't have a chance at all.Nash goes nuts against everyone, so does Kobe, T-Mac, TD, Amare, AI...everyone that's a legit superstar goes off against every team on most nights...This is such an idiotic statement you keep making Nitro.It's not like the Mavs give up 100 points a game, and 35 to the likes of Smush Parker or Deron Williams...they give up points, just like EVERYONE else, to Kobe and superstars of the like.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Every team does NOT have the same weakness. Some teams might struggle mightily with some stars or defensively at certain positions. Example- Heat ALWAYS get burned by LeBron James, AI always destroys the Bucks, Shaq always kills the Nets, etc... But the mavs have shown they can't stop all star caliber players at any position (PG- Nash, SG- Kobe, SF- TMac, PF- Duncan, C-Amare).They don't have any lockdown defenders at any position. They play feisty defense and good team defense, but they don't have the kind of player that can really clamp down on any player, nor do they have truly any great defenders to begin with. The Heat have players that can do it, Lakers have it, Rockets have it, Spurs have it, but the Mavs don't. In the playoffs they will face teams that will clamp down on either Howard or Dirk, but the Mavs won't have an answer for the other team's superstar.</div>Lakers are one of the worst defensive teams in the nba. We have no-one who plays defense consistently. Kobe decides to play defense when he wants to (vs heat).Rockets do not have any lock down defenders. Battier is not a lockdown defender. Rockets have excellent team d, their team d Killed Kobe bryant last time they faced. There was no angle of penetration.Spurs don't. Bruce bowen's defense seems to be non-existent. He is getting beat off the dribble by a kobe bryant who is about 80%. He is getting beat by backdoor passes. He seems slow. Kobe has toyed with him this season, compare that to last season where kobe was forced to take jumpers on bowen.Heat have excatly who? Posey and Haslem? Since when are they lockdown defenders?
[quote name='Rok' post='268665' date='Jan 21 2007, 11:56 PM']Right, so that explains why I've seen those 5 guys you listed against the Mavs not play well against other teams. Because it's only Dallas who can't contain them from going off. Every team has the same weakness. Slowing down opposing superstars is a problem every team faces. Quit trying to put it on Dallas only.[/quote]Don't turn that on me, there are a number of teams that have a very hard time doing it. But in the playoffs when the Mavs have to face a team that can slow down Dirk or Howard, and have a star or 2 that can dominate, the Mavs will be in deep trouble like they were against the Heat. Suns didn't win a very close 7 game series. They thoroughly beat down on the Mavs 2 of their 4 wins, and in 1 of the wins they beat them decisively. Game 6 is the only game that could have gone either way for the Mavs. In the Spurs series there were 3 games that could have gone either way and ended up going the Mavs' way. 2 totally different series'. Kobe for Lakers (look at what he did to wade in 2nd half of game last week, look at what he did to T-Mac few years ago when he was allowed to guard him in 4th, etc...). Battier for the Rockets, who is a GREAT defender, and of course the Rockets have really, really good low post defenders and presences. Mavs don't have a defender that caliber of a Kobe or Battier, nor do they have the inside presences the Rockets have. As good as Howard has been, I still wouldn't classify him as a star. Wade has Shaq, T-Mac has Yao (who also gives and will give Mavs many problems) and Amare has Nash (although rarely will you see a big man like Amare struggle that much, especially in that offense with that PG). When did I say last year doesn't count? They deserved to beat SA despite being extremely close and one Duncan layup away from going SA's way. They deserved to beat Phoenix and Grizz, they did them in decisively and neither series was that close (although Nash did win the Suns 2 games, and if they had a low post presence at ALL the series probably would have been very different). But look at what happenned in the Finals, they were exposed and the Heat had a player that could slow Dirk down. Despite heat not getting much from Shaq or the role players, and despite Terry going off, they won because that one star beat Dallas. That can definately happen again considering the Mavs still have the same defensive problems. Last year in playoffs he put up 21/10/3 on 52% shooting, 44% from 3. In 04-05 playoffs he put up 30/12/7 on 55% shooting, 42% from 3, and this year he had a 24/13/4 game on 10-14 shooting. So yes, he always really hurts you guys badly, especially in 4th quarters when he takes over the scoring load and puts team on back (game 1 of last years playoffs for instance). It's not just a Dallas thing, but for such a great defensive team to get beat consistently by opposing stars is not a good thing. If Dallas just had one player to keep a player like T-Mac, Kobe or wade for going off as much as they do against the Mavs, all these close series' wouldn't be close at all. Most of the top tier teams in the West have certain positions that they have lot sof trouble guarding, but very few have so much trouble in every position like the Mavs do. If the Mavs were able to contain Wade for at least one of those last 4 games you guys would probably be NBA champs. Luckily for you guys last year you didn't have to face a healthy Phoenix, Rockets or Lakers, all teams that pose the biggest challenges to the Mavs and who I feel could all possibly down the Mavs in a 7 game series (Lakers not so much, Rockets and Phoenix definately). They shouldn't be nearly as close as Dallas makes them. They make it so much harder on themselves by letting these players go off. And in playoffs that will be exploited if Dallas continues the trend. Dallas is a GREAT team, and almost flawless outside of the one weakness I keep bringing up. But in this league, that weakness is one that can definately lose you a series, as you saw in the Finals.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Hey Rok, mavsfan, just let it go...Nitro is one of those guys that will go on and on, saying non sensical crap to confuse everyone, just so he can say he didn't lose this arguement.</div>I am letting this go. And I stand by what I said, and it seems like others agree with me.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>but very few have so much trouble in every position like the Mavs do.</div>Seriously, read that nitro. This is why I'm taking marvins advice and letting it go. That's complete and utter bullsh**. Very few teams have trouble guarding superstars at each position. You got me there.
We all do...the Mavs are one of the better defensive teams in the league, and like all teams get lit up by superstars.I think it's time to lock this up before someone takes it out of hand.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rok @ Jan 22 2007, 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I am letting this go. And I stand by what I said, and it seems like others agree with me.</div>This is an almost impossible arguement on my side as the Mavs have the best record in the NBA right now. But they have no good/very good man to man defenders, and other stars will continue to go off on them. And in the playoffs, if another team has a defender to keep Dirk or Howard in check, then the mavs will be in big trouble. You saw them lose to the Heat last year for this exact same reason, and also against Suns 2 years ago when Marion did a very good job on Dirk (Dirk is much evolved offensively since then so I don't see Marion doing that to Dirk again). I think they are very overrated defensively, and that's why I continue to bring this up. I honestly don't believe they'd beat the Rockets or Suns in a 7 game series because of that sole weakness they have defensively.PS- You think the Lakers are as worried about another swingman going off on them with Kobe on them as much as the Mavs are? No. You think the Rockets feel the same with Battier guarding a SG/SF? No. You think the Nets are worried about opposing PG's burning JKidd as much as the Mavs are? No. Most teams are soft in a few positions and superstars on other teams will exploit that, but many of the other top tier teams have players who are very good man to man defenders and can keep other players in check. Mavs don't have that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jan 22 2007, 05:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This is an almost impossible arguement on my side as the Mavs have the best record in the NBA right now. But they have no good/very good man to man defenders, and other stars will continue to go off on them. And in the playoffs, if another team has a defender to keep Dirk or Howard in check, then the mavs will be in big trouble. You saw them lose to the Heat last year for this exact same reason, and also against Suns 2 years ago when Marion did a very good job on Dirk (Dirk is much evolved offensively since then so I don't see Marion doing that to Dirk again). I think they are very overrated defensively, and that's why I continue to bring this up. I honestly don't believe they'd beat the Rockets or Suns in a 7 game series because of that sole weakness they have defensively.PS- You think the Lakers are as worried about another swingman going off on them with Kobe on them as much as the Mavs are? No. You think the Rockets feel the same with Battier guarding a SG/SF? No. You think the Nets are worried about opposing PG's burning JKidd as much as the Mavs are? No. Most teams are soft in a few positions and superstars on other teams will exploit that, but many of the other top tier teams have players who are very good man to man defenders and can keep other players in check. Mavs don't have that.</div>Mavs have no good defenders???? Man what have you been drinking. I believe it is hatorade because your opinions are just a bunch of bullsh**. I gave you a list of solid defenders that you totally ignored. None of them are shutdown defenders but as good as you can get in the way the rules of the nba are these days on guards. Stfu now please. Thanks.
Nitro this league is so competitive that you can?t expect a team to win a series decisively always. Most of the time it comes down to one possession, one missed free throw, one turnover, etc. Those kinds of things can go either way but the fact is Dallas executed and the Spurs didn?t (Ginobli fouling Dirk, Duncan missed shots) and that?s the bottom line. You gotta stop this would?ve, should?ve, could?ve, what if thinking of yours. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I think they are very overrated defensively</div>BTW you know why you?re having a hard time considering the Mavs as one of the top defensive teams, it?s because you base everything on stats. Dallas is letting team shoot 44.98% this year compare to last year 44.33%. Now if you look at that alone you?d say they got worse defensively but you?re wrong . . . . . . . teams are shooting better this year and offense is up this year. Meaning Dallas is better defensively this year despite giving up a higher FG%. Last year only 5 teams scored 100+ plus points. This year 9 teams are doing that feat. You have 11 teams who?s shooting better than 46% compare to 8 teams last year. Stats are deceiving Nitro, don?t base everything on it. :winkglasses:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>PS- You think the Lakers are as worried about another swingman going off on them with Kobe on them as much as the Mavs are? No. You think the Rockets feel the same with Battier guarding a SG/SF? No. You think the Nets are worried about opposing PG's burning JKidd as much as the Mavs are? No. Most teams are soft in a few positions and superstars on other teams will exploit that, but many of the other top tier teams have players who are very good man to man defenders and can keep other players in check. Mavs don't have that.</div>And you know these Mavericks right, your in their heads knowing that their worried. Please. Rockets feel great about a superstar swingmen coming in because of Battier? I'm supposed to buy that. Kobe doesn't put out an effort every night on the defensive end, so your telling me Lakers should not worry when a swing star comes in. Very few teams have man to man defenders at every position. Don't tell me it's the opposite of the realm and Mavs are the minority. Like I said, that's bullsh**. Especially regarding star players, because as I've said this entire time. And it applies to worrying as well, every team has the same issue. Your telling me teams don't worry when a star comes in? And I very much disagree with Mavs having none of that. How about watching the Mavericks and noticing that they do have decent man to man defenders in Harris, Dampier and at times Howard. To say they have none, is one of the worst misconceptions ever. Go ahead and throw big numbers from stars at me, like I stated before, I can go and look at each team. Pick out the big number games from stars and throw them out my ass.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>This is an almost impossible arguement on my side as the Mavs have the best record in the NBA right now.</div>How about the fact you can't pinpoint one team in this league that can legitmately say we can slow down any opposing superstar. That's why it's impossible and why I should be done with from the first page.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Jan 22 2007, 01:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Mavs have no good defenders???? Man what have you been drinking. I believe it is hatorade because your opinions are just a bunch of bullsh**. I gave you a list of solid defenders that you totally ignored. None of them are shutdown defenders but as good as you can get in the way the rules of the nba are these days on guards. Stfu now please. Thanks.</div>I didn't even see your list, but none of them are above average man to man defenders. Harris is average at best (good off ball defender), Bucker is pretty good but nothing special, George is average (melo061 will emphatically back me up on that one), and Dampier and Diop are also pretty average. You said who on the Heat are better defenders? Haslem, Mourning, Kapono (I never really took a notice of his defense until today but did a very good job and supposedly the interim coach says he is the best defender on the team), and Posey is also a good defender.
Problem with gump is that his defense is so inconsistent. Sometimes he'll play Great defense, hustles then at other times his defense is atrocious. He is very slow defensively and is a low iq baller. He'll show his true colours soon enough. I can't believe we gave him the mle. What a waste.http://youtube.com/watch?v=dd1Q2Mg9TPEGood times.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jan 22 2007, 04:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I didn't even see your list, but none of them are above average man to man defenders. Harris is average at best (good off ball defender), Bucker is pretty good but nothing special, George is average (melo061 will emphatically back me up on that one), and Dampier and Diop are also pretty average. You said who on the Heat are better defenders? Haslem, Mourning, Kapono (I never really took a notice of his defense until today but did a very good job and supposedly the interim coach says he is the best defender on the team), and Posey is also a good defender.</div>Well that coach is pretty retarded.
