<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Jan 27 2007, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>but I'm not going crazy over it and making it a big deal like some people are.</div>I'm not making a big deal out of. I'm just saying Gilbert is leading his team to be #1 in the East. I don't care how crappy the whole east is, he is doing his job.
Yeah, he's doing his job but making a point that 'hey look at Arenas and those #1 Wizards!' It's kind of like the forum response...'being number 1 in the special olympics'.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cavsrules @ Jan 27 2007, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Have you not seen Gilbert putting up some crazy Numbers all season long? He is putting his team on his back with Lil help, and taking them to were they need to be in the East.</div>Yeah, if by little help you mean a second option who scores over 20 points a game, and a third option, and a third option who scores almost 20 a game. He has all of the offensive help on that team. Sure, Gilbert is a great player, but he has a good amount of help offensivley.Also, the team is 8 over 500 in a VERY weak conference. If you put that team in the west, they would struggle to make the playoffs. Right now, they would probably be about 3 or so games over 500. Just think about all the teams in the West that they would have to play 4 times a year. They couldnt survive.....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Jan 27 2007, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Tim Duncan was not even in half of BBW's 'Top 5' lists. I don't give a damn how flashy and talented LeBron James and Allen Iverson are, this guy is one of the leagues greatest defensive post players, very consistant and efficient offensive player. The sh*t he does goes beyond statistics, few people have his presense and almost nobody is as fundamentally sound. Tim Duncan is not 'slipping' like people keep saying. He gets so little respect around here that it makes me f*cking puke.</div>Before the season I put him at #2 on my top 5. He has dipped a bit with the rise of other stars, but he's still easily top 5. Amazingly fundemental, knows the game very well, underrated passer, great defender and rebounder, and the guy simply wins.
Duncan is great, yeah he's a top 5 playerbut people have to relise that he's getting older and he's not making as much of a impact on his team as he did a couple years ago and theres a lot of other stars in the nba overshadowing him but of course all that dosen't change the fact Duncan is simply great .. more people should be showing quite a bit of respecting to this guy as a player and what he still does on the court.
I think duncan is top 5, but that doesn't change the fact that nobody in this thread has had an argument based on fact or anything other than hearsay and conjecture
BCB, Duncan is a great player, and he has had a very successful career, but I dont really view him as a top 5 individual player anymore. 1. Kobe Bryant2. Lebron James3. Dirk Nowitzki4. Steve Nash5. Dwayne WadeIf somebody had those 5 players ahead of Duncan, you cant really argue with them about it. Duncan of course has had a more successful career than all of them, but if you looked at their games right now, it wouldnt be such a standout for Duncan to be ahead of them by any means.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jan 28 2007, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>BCB, Duncan is a great player, and he has had a very successful career, but I dont really view him as a top 5 individual player anymore. 1. Kobe Bryant2. Lebron James3. Dirk Nowitzki4. Steve Nash5. Dwayne WadeIf somebody had those 5 players ahead of Duncan, you cant really argue with them about it. Duncan of course has had a more successful career than all of them, but if you looked at their games right now, it wouldnt be such a standout for Duncan to be ahead of them by any means.</div>You can definately argue Nash and Dirk. He is a better scorer, rebounder, and defender than Nash, and a better rebounder, passer and defender than Dirk. Then you can go into the list of accomplishments, but individually I feel he has those things over those 2 players. If you have Kobe, Wade or Bron over him, I can definately understand that, but Dirk and Nash are more arguable.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jan 28 2007, 05:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You can definately argue Nash and Dirk. He is a better scorer, rebounder, and defender than Nash, and a better rebounder, passer and defender than Dirk. Then you can go into the list of accomplishments, but individually I feel he has those things over those 2 players. If you have Kobe, Wade or Bron over him, I can definately understand that, but Dirk and Nash are more arguable.</div>He is not a better scorer than Nash what so ever. Nash gets nearly as many points, and is not the first scoring option on that team. For him to have so much offensive talent around him, and to still get 20 points a game is amazing. Especially at what percentage he does it. Nash has an amazing percentage from the field for a guard. Of course Duncan is going to be a better rebounder than Nash is....Then look at Nash's passing. He is the best passer in the game and Duncan is like the 5th best rebounder in the game. Dirk is the better scorer, not much worse of a rebounder, just as good of a passer as Duncan is. The only passes that Duncan makes that are somewhat good are passes out of double teams when he has his back to the block. They are a push as a passer....And Duncan is a better defender. But then you look at what Dirk is doing for his team this year.....That is why I put him ahead of Duncan. And if you dont like Dirk on your top 5, replace him with KG above Duncan. Im just saying that if somebody doesn't have Duncan on their top 5, it shouldnt come across as ridiculous. If somebody doesn't have Duncan on their top 5 current players with the best careers, then they are nuts....But that isnt what we are talking about.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jan 28 2007, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He is not a better scorer than Nash what so ever. Nash gets nearly as many points, and is not the first scoring option on that team. For him to have so much offensive talent around him, and to still get 20 points a game is amazing. Especially at what percentage he does it. Nash has an amazing percentage from the field for a guard. Of course Duncan is going to be a better rebounder than Nash is....Then look at Nash's passing. He is the best passer in the game and Duncan is like the 5th best rebounder in the game.</div>Much of Nash's stats are skewed by the system he is in. Before he arrived in Phoenix he never averaged more than 9APG or had over 49% from the field. Since arriving in Phoenix he has been at around 11APG and every single season over 50% shooting. If he was on any other team, teams would collapse on him as he drives to the basket. But with the Suns you have to stick on your man, thus leaving Nash wide open layups most of the time. Duncan is probably the best post player in the league and has a great midrange jumpshot. I'd rather rely on him as my #1 option than Nash.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Dirk is the better scorer, not much worse of a rebounder, just as good of a passer as Duncan is. The only passes that Duncan makes that are somewhat good are passes out of double teams when he has his back to the block. They are a push as a passer....And Duncan is a better defender. But then you look at what Dirk is doing for his team this year.....That is why I put him ahead of Duncan. And if you dont like Dirk on your top 5, replace him with KG above Duncan.</div>I'd put Duncan as a better passer. Not by much, but I still feel he has the edge there. He has had series of over 5APG, and a season where he had 4APG. That is great for a big man. Duncan I feel takes it a lot easier now as he doesn't have such a big load on his shoulders anymore, but I think he could still put up 25/12 again for a season. And Duncan has done what Dirk is doing this year for his team. Duncan had a 26/13/4/3 season, 23/13/4/3 when he won his 2nd championship, and 21/11/3/3 in his 3rd championship season. When he was at his statistical best he would have won more rings if it wasn't for him having to face the Lakers dynasty. Dirk has won 0 rings, doesn't even have the best record in the NBA right now, and his numbers aren't other-worldly. KG is a better arguement, and you can find my arguement between those 2 a few months back in the debate section.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Im just saying that if somebody doesn't have Duncan on their top 5, it shouldnt come across as ridiculous. If somebody doesn't have Duncan on their top 5 current players with the best careers, then they are nuts....But that isnt what we are talking about.</div>Again, he is still the best low post player in the league, one of the best rebounders, one of best passing big man (KG and MAYBE Shaq are ahead of him there), and one of best low post defenders in the league. He wins, and while his team doesn't need him as much anymore to win, he still has shown that when they need him he shows (over 30/11 against Mavs in playoffs last year, and for a more recent example, 37pts against Rockets on Wednesday). I don't think it is ridiculous for anyone to have Dirk or Nash above Duncan, but it is certainly arguable.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jan 28 2007, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He is not a better scorer than Nash what so ever. Nash gets nearly as many points, and is not the first scoring option on that team. For him to have so much offensive talent around him, and to still get 20 points a game is amazing. Especially at what percentage he does it. Nash has an amazing percentage from the field for a guard. Of course Duncan is going to be a better rebounder than Nash is....Then look at Nash's passing. He is the best passer in the game and Duncan is like the 5th best rebounder in the game.</div>But the point is. Nash is in the system right now. so we dont talk about where he was years ago. He has gotten alot better as a player. also I do not like nash. My little brothers favourite team is the Suns. Nash can't play defense, has a very nice Jumpshot, and can drive. He works well in the system though.Back to the point.Duncan, is no longer the top 5 player in the NBA. Neither is Shaq. Yes they have had better careers than anyone else but the point is, they are in their decline of their careers. Yet, they can still put up 20/20 nights anytime they want. Duncan is still a great player, he is just playing with his brain more. He knows exactly what it takes to win. He always has none what it takes to win, its just he is even smarter now. the question is thisKobe Bryant...Chris Bosh... Carmelo Anthony...LeBron James...Dwight Howard...Gilbert Arenas...Allen Iverson...Steve Nash... would you take Tim Duncan over any of them players right now, for just one season?? You wouldnt. Possible, Iverson, but that was just a quick name that came to my mind.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PureMvp @ Jan 28 2007, 06:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe Bryant...Chris Bosh... Carmelo Anthony...LeBron James...Dwight Howard...Gilbert Arenas...Allen Iverson...Steve Nash... would you take Tim Duncan over any of them players right now, for just one season?? You wouldnt. Possible, Iverson, but that was just a quick name that came to my mind.</div>Not Kobe, yes to the rest (although I wouldn't have any problem with having Bron or AI over him). Bosh has never stepped foot in a playoff game and isn't nearly as refined in the post or as good defensively, GA isn't half the defender among other things, Melo has to prove a LOT more in the playoffs (20PPG on 33% shooting last year vs Clippers) and he also isn't near the defensive player, Dwight Howard does nothing better than Duncan outside of rebound and has neve rbeen in a playoff game either, etc...
Please tell me, your not saying. You would take Duncan over Kobe? because if you are, please leave and refrain your'e self from making more dumb remarks. Kobe is the best player in the NBA, and yet I said this season only. We arent talking about playoffs or anything, like that. We are talking about THIS SEASON..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PureMvp @ Jan 28 2007, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Please tell me, your not saying. You would take Duncan over Kobe? because if you are, please leave and refrain your'e self from making more dumb remarks. Kobe is the best player in the NBA, and yet I said this season only. We arent talking about playoffs or anything, like that. We are talking about THIS SEASON..</div>Umm read my post. I said No to Kobe, yes to everyone else. Meaning Kobe is the only one out of the people that you mentioned that I agree with being better than Duncan.And we can go on and on about stats this season, but bottom line is his team doesn't need him to do what he has done in the past (23-25PPG, 12-13RPG, 3BPG, 4APG, etc..). He showed last year in playoffs and when his team need shim this season (like on Wednesday and tonight) that he can still put up those numbers. But if I were to have any of those players on my team, I wouldn't want a player who choked in the playoffs last season (Melo) or players that have never been in the playoffs....over a 3 time champion who has been in the playoffs in every year of his career!!!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jan 28 2007, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Umm read my post. I said No to Kobe, yes to everyone else. Meaning Kobe is the only one out of the people that you mentioned that I agree with being better than Duncan.And we can go on and on about stats this season, but bottom line is his team doesn't need him to do what he has done in the past (23-25PPG, 12-13RPG, 3BPG, 4APG, etc..). He showed last year in playoffs and when his team need shim this season (like on Wednesday and tonight) that he can still put up those numbers. But if I were to have any of those players on my team, I wouldn't want a player who choked in the playoffs last season (Melo) or players that have never been in the playoffs....over a 3 time champion who has been in the playoffs in every year of his career!!!!</div>my bad my bad I read it wrong.. I still dont see how your puting them over TD. we are talking about one season.. so forget about all other seasons..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PureMvp @ Jan 28 2007, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>my bad my bad I read it wrong.. I still dont see how your puting them over TD. we are talking about one season.. so forget about all other seasons..</div>And again, if I were to take one of those players (aside from Kobe), I'd take Duncan over all of them. Duncan doesn't NEED to do what he has done in the past to win, but in big or close games he still puts up the 30+ points or 12+ rebounds. he is still the best low post player in the league, one of best rebounders, one of best low post defender, one of best passing big men, arguably most clutch big man, and the guy does whatever it takes to win.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jan 28 2007, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Much of Nash's stats are skewed by the system he is in. Before he arrived in Phoenix he never averaged more than 9APG or had over 49% from the field. Since arriving in Phoenix he has been at around 11APG and every single season over 50% shooting. If he was on any other team, teams would collapse on him as he drives to the basket. But with the Suns you have to stick on your man, thus leaving Nash wide open layups most of the time. Duncan is probably the best post player in the league and has a great midrange jumpshot. I'd rather rely on him as my #1 option than Nash.I'd put Duncan as a better passer. Not by much, but I still feel he has the edge there. He has had series of over 5APG, and a season where he had 4APG. That is great for a big man. Duncan I feel takes it a lot easier now as he doesn't have such a big load on his shoulders anymore, but I think he could still put up 25/12 again for a season. And Duncan has done what Dirk is doing this year for his team. Duncan had a 26/13/4/3 season, 23/13/4/3 when he won his 2nd championship, and 21/11/3/3 in his 3rd championship season. When he was at his statistical best he would have won more rings if it wasn't for him having to face the Lakers dynasty. Dirk has won 0 rings, doesn't even have the best record in the NBA right now, and his numbers aren't other-worldly. KG is a better arguement, and you can find my arguement between those 2 a few months back in the debate section.Again, he is still the best low post player in the league, one of the best rebounders, one of best passing big man (KG and MAYBE Shaq are ahead of him there), and one of best low post defenders in the league. He wins, and while his team doesn't need him as much anymore to win, he still has shown that when they need him he shows (over 30/11 against Mavs in playoffs last year, and for a more recent example, 37pts against Rockets on Wednesday). I don't think it is ridiculous for anyone to have Dirk or Nash above Duncan, but it is certainly arguable.</div>Nash also didnt get the playing time in Dallas that he gets in Phoenix....And as his career has progressed, he has become a better shooter. He is still going to have a man on him at all time. Players dont leave a guy like Nash to go double other players. And he is still shooting over 53 percent from the field, and 50 percent from 3 point range....That is crazy. And for Nash to average right under 9 assists in Dallas isnt that bad what so ever....It just looks bad when you are comparing it to what he is doing right now.Duncan is one of the best low post players in the league, and Dirk is one of the best mid range players in the league. Dirk can get to the basket from the perimeter better than Duncan, and Dirk can shoot from the 3 point range as well. ALSO, Dirk is a much better free throw shooter. Duncan is averaging probably a rebound and a half more a game than Dirk is. Duncan is the better rebounder for sure, but not by THAT much, just like Duncan being the better passer. And you compared Duncan's season from a while ago to Dirks right now...Duncan was a better player when he was putting up those numbers a couple years ago, but we are talking about right now, and Dirk has surpassed him. And also, Duncan doesn't have a good mid range game what so ever. He is actually a pretty damn bad jumpshooter unless he is on the left side of the basket, and he uses the glass. I have had to struggle to watch him shoot mid range jumpers all year long.Yeah, 37 points against the Rockets when they lose and the Rockets dont even have Yao. And the Spurs lost to the Mavericks last year in the playoffs as well....Im not blaming all that on Duncan, but since he is the leader on that team, he should be the one taking alot of responsibility for the losses.EDIT: And if you have watched the Spurs play this year, Duncan hasnt done what he needs to do to get his team to win. Throughout alot of this year, the Spurs have lost to ALOT of the better teams in both conferences. Cleveland twice, LA Lakers twice, Dallas twice, Houston twice, and alot more....
[quote name='ballerman2112' post='274808' date='Jan 28 2007, 06:48 PM']Nash also didnt get the playing time in Dallas that he gets in Phoenix....And as his career has progressed, he has become a better shooter. He is still going to have a man on him at all time. Players dont leave a guy like Nash to go double other players. And he is still shooting over 53 percent from the field, and 50 percent from 3 point range....That is crazy. And for Nash to average right under 9 assists in Dallas isnt that bad what so ever....It just looks bad when you are comparing it to what he is doing right now.[/quote]Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to discredit Nash's shooting ability or passing ability (he is the best playmaker in the league). But his stats are a bit overblown due to being in Phoenix. He would not be a 53% shooter in any other system. He wouldn't be able to drive into an empty lane like he does now, nor would he get so many open 3's. He makes that system truly work, but the system also gives him many benefits and bloats his stats. I never called Duncan a better scorer, that definately goes to Dirk. Duncan can still put up those numbers. He is having a career year in FG % by nearly 3%, I am sure if he took as many shots as he did then (17FGA's per game to around 14 now), and if he played as many minutes as then (went down from 40MPG to around 35MPG now), he would be at his 23-25PPG and 12-13RPG averages. He showe dlast year in playoffs and in many games this year that he still has the capabilities he did a few years back. I just cannot put Dirk above Duncan, the only thing he really has over him IMO is scoring and maybe clutch ability. But rebounding, passing, defense...all goes to Duncan. And say waht you want about his rings being in the past, but IMO they have shaped what he is today and knows what it takes to win rings, and that gives him another edge over Dirk that stats never show. Well, if Bowen was able to keep up with T-Mac maybe they would have won, but T-Mac killed you guys. Duncan played a helluva game. Against the Mavs he deserves some flak, but again...32/12/4/3 on 56% shooting is absolutely incredible and you can't expect much more from your PF. He does his job. Averaging 21/14/4 against Cleveland, 26/14/6 against Phoenix, came up HUGE against Houston and LA this past week, etc... The only team he has played badly against is Dallas, but he was incredible against them last season. He does his job, it's rare you can truly blame him for a loss.
