What's your take on Kobe Bryant's being this year's MVP? ? Roger, Los Angeles<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I can only repeat what I've been saying for all these years ? that the entire concept of a most valuable player is absurd, and exists only to create controversy (and attention) in the media. I mean, what are the criteria for an MVP? The best player on the best team? The best player in the league? Is a scorer better than a rebounder? Is a passer better than a top-notch defender? Who's to say which player, and the role he happens to play, is more or less indispensable than another?So count me out of any discussion that perpetuates the MVP hype.</div> What do you guys think? I just go by who is the best player in the league.
You can't just go by who is the best player in the league I mean Steve Nash isn't the best player in the league but he is the most valuable to his team. You have to think if that one guy wasn't there then that team would not succeed like they are when they are having him. Steve Nash has been picked the last 2 years for his ability to create baskets for his teammates and he can also score at the same time. I mean averaging 20 points and 10 assists is huge for the Suns and would not be nearly as good w/o him, there is no point guard in the league that can do what Steve Nash does for the Suns.
An MVP, historically, is the best player on one of the two best teams in the league. Rob Tracy, down at the Elias Sports Bureau came up with an MVP monitor, similar to winshares, based on a player's % of a team's statistical contributions multiplied by a team's wins. It is the most objective determinate of an MVP and it is as accurate as can be (all MVPs but Iverson, Nash, and Cousy were top 3 in the MVP monitor.) Here it is.<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>05-0650.4 DAL Dirk Nowitzki 45.9 CLE LeBron James 42.3 SATim Duncan33.3 PHO *Steve Nash (12th)04-0544.5 DAL Dirk Nowitzki 42.4 MIN Kevin Garnett39.9 PHO Shawn Marion32.3 PHO *Steve Nash (10th)03-0458.1 MIN *Kevin Garnett41.2 SATim Duncan 37.5 IND Jermaine O'Neal02-0354.8 SA*Tim Duncan 47.5 MIN Kevin Garnett44.8 DAL Dirk Nowitzki01-0254.5 SA*Tim Duncan 40.1 MIN Kevin Garnett38.2 LAL Shaquille O'Neal00-0145.5 LAL Shaquille O'Neal42.3 SATim Duncan 39.0 UTA Karl Malone 33.4 PHI *Allen Iverson (12th)99-0062.0 LAL *Shaquille O'Neal 44.9 UTA Karl Malone41.1 MIN Kevin Garnett98-9928.1 UTA *Karl Malone27.6 SATim Duncan 25.3 LAL Shaquille O'Neal97-9850.1 UTA Karl Malone 44.9 SATim Duncan 44.3 CHI *Michael Jordan96-9752.5 UTA *Karl Malone50.1 CHI Michael Jordan 45.4 DET Grant Hill95-9656.4 CHI *Michael Jordan 51.2 SADavid Robinson 43.0 UTA Karl Malone94-9554.1 SA*David Robinson 45.7 UTA Karl Malone41.7 NYPatrick Ewing93-9451.5 SADavid Robinson50.1 HOU *Hakeem Olajuwon 45.0 ORL Shaquille O'Neal92-9349.6 HOU Hakeem Olajuwon 46.3 CHI Michael Jordan 45.8 PHO *Charles Barkley91-9249.8 CHI *Michael Jordan 41.3 CHI Scottie Pippen 40.8 UTA Karl Malone90-9149.5 CHI *Michael Jordan 48.5 SADavid Robinson 45.0 UTA Karl Malone89-9050.0 CHI Michael Jordan47.4 LAL *Magic Johnson 46.5 UTA Karl Malone88-8946.3 CHI Michael Jordan43.2 LAL *Magic Johnson 38.4 UTA Karl Malone87-8846.7 CHI *Michael Jordan 44.6 BOS Larry Bird 37.5 LAL Magic Johnson86-8747.8 LAL *Magic Johnson44.1 BOS Larry Bird 40.1 BOS Kevin McHale85-8650.1 BOS *Larry Bird 38.3 LAL Magic Johnson36.7 PHI Charles Barkley84-8551.4 BOS *Larry Bird 39.2 LAL Magic Johnson39.1 PHI Moses Malone83-8446.7 BOS *Larry Bird 35.0 BOS Robert Parish33.0 LAMagic Johnson82-8348.5 PHI *Moses Malone 43.1 BOS Larry Bird 38.4 LAMagic Johnson81-8244.5 BOS Larry Bird43.9 HOU *Moses Malone39.1 LAMagic Johnson80-8143.2 BOS Larry Bird41.9 PHI *Julius Erving 40.9 LAKareem Abdul-Jabbar79-8046.6 LA*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar39.8 PHI Julius Erving38.5 BOS Larry Bird78-7940.6 HOU *Moses Malone 40.1 LAKareem Abdul-Jabbar31.4 WAS Elvin Hayes77-7833.4 POR *Bill Walton32.8 CHI Artis Gilmore32.3 NYBob McAdoo76-7747.8 LA*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar34.6 WAS Elvin Hayes30.9 CHI Artis Gilmore75-7641.6 LA*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar38.1 BOS Dave Cowens37.0 BUF Bob McAdoo74-7545.1 BUF *Bob McAdoo 42.0 WAS Elvin Hayes34.2 BOS Dave Cowens73-7452.0 MIL *Kareem Abdul-Jabbar42.8 DET Bob Lanier 37.8 CAP Elvin Hayes72-7355.2 MIL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 45.1 BOS *Dave Cowens 44.5 LAWilt Chamberlain71-7264.0 MIL *Kareem Abdul-Jabbar47.1 LAWilt Chamberlain 41.2 BOS John Havlicek70-7157.8 MIL *Kareem Abdul-Jabbar38.9 LAWilt Chamberlain 36.2 MIL Oscar Robertson69-7043.6 MIL Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 40.5 NYK *Willis Reed 37.3 NYK Walt Frazier68-6948.4 LAL Wilt Chamberlain39.8 NYK Willis Reed37.9 BAL *Wes Unseld67-6863.0 PHI *Wilt Chamberlain 34.5 BOS Bill Russell 34.2 STL Zelmo Beaty66-6771.0 PHI *Wilt Chamberlain 46.0 BOS Bill Russell 33.8 CIN Oscar Robertson65-6665.9 PHI *Wilt Chamberlain 43.8 BOS Bill Russell 38.2 CIN Oscar Robertson64-6556.4 BOS *Bill Russell 42.9 CIN Oscar Robertson34.4 LAJerry West63-6460.6 SFWilt Chamberlain55.0 BOS Bill Russell 52.4 CIN *Oscar Robertson62-6348.8 LAElgin Baylor48.3 BOS *Bill Russell41.8 SFWilt Chamberlain61-6265.0 PHI Wilt Chamberlain48.8 BOS *Bill Russell40.1 CIN Oscar Robertson60-6155.3 PHI Wilt Chamberlain47.6 BOS *Bill Russell44.7 STL Bob Pettit59-6053.8 PHI *Wilt Chamberlain 48.4 BOS Bill Russell 36.9 STL Bob Pettit58-5945.3 STL *Bob Pettit 43.0 BOS Bill Russell 32.7 STL Cliff Hagan57-5840.2 BOS *Bill Russell 35.5 SYR Dolph Schayes33.2 STL Bob Pettit56-5735.0 SYR Dolph Schayes 29.4 STL Bob Pettit 29.2 PHI Neil Johnston 22.1 BOS *Bob Cousy (8th)55-5632.8 PHI Neil Johnston 32.8 STL *Bob Pettit26.9 SYR Dolph Schayes</div>Quite accurate and makes you rethink the ones that it is wrong about. It does appear to have a bias against low efficiency point guards.
I think the MVP is overrated, and I think this best player on best team stuff it horseshit. It should be the player whos value to his team exceeds the value of any other player in the NBA to their team. Obviously there are many ways to look at it, and many factors come into a decision. I personally do believe it is a "media" thing, and that a lot of the sh*t that happens is all the medias fault. Its a fuzzy definition of the award, but I defintiely think it should go to the MOST VALUABLE player, not the best player. (THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL, BUT) Dirk could be putting up 35/15 for a 1st place team in the West, and someone like, I don't know Carmelo is putting up 25/5 for an 8th place team in the West, but is carrying them, and without him they'd be in last place or something. I'd vote for Melo.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yankshater213 @ Feb 1 2007, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think the MVP is overrated, and I think this best player on best team stuff it horseshit. It should be the player whos value to his team exceeds the value of any other player in the NBA to their team. Obviously there are many ways to look at it, and many factors come into a decision. I personally do believe it is a "media" thing, and that a lot of the sh*t that happens is all the medias fault. Its a fuzzy definition of the award, but I defintiely think it should go to the MOST VALUABLE player, not the best player. (THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL, BUT) Dirk could be putting up 35/15 for a 1st place team in the West, and someone like, I don't know Carmelo is putting up 25/5 for an 8th place team in the West, but is carrying them, and without him they'd be in last place or something. I'd vote for Melo.</div>That's why the MVP monitor works, it takes % of team's production (how much you carry your team) times their number of wins (how successful your team is). You could argue it should be 0.2 times the number of wins, as a player is one of five players on the court, but other than that, you have to have team success as a partial factor
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I'd vote for Melo.</div>Melo? The guy who helped his team by getting himself suspended. That's not being a valuable player for your team.Also, on Dirk, your comments make it seem like Dirk does not carry this team. When actually he does. I really don't see how people think that a team led by Jason Terry and Josh Howard could actually amount to something in the West. Howard would not be as efficient and Terry would be back to his Atlanta ways of creating his own shot. That would be a bubble playoff team at best.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rok @ Feb 1 2007, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Melo? The guy who helped his team by getting himself suspended. That's not being a valuable player for your team.Also, on Dirk, your comments make it seem like Dirk does not carry this team. When actually he does. I really don't see how people think that a team led by Jason Terry and Josh Howard could actually amount to something in the West. Howard would not be as efficient and Terry would be back to his Atlanta ways of creating his own shot. That would be a bubble playoff team at best.</div>I'll answer for yankshater and say that he was just using them as hypothetical players. Dirk isn't averaging 35/15 and Carmelo isn't carrying his team nor is he averaging 25-5. He wasn't suggesting he'd vote melo for MVP this year
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I'll answer for yankshater and say that he was just using them as hypothetical players. Dirk isn't averaging 35/15 and Carmelo isn't carrying his team nor is he averaging 25-5. He wasn't suggesting he'd vote melo for MVP this year</div>Gotcha, missed the hypothetical, because it seems to be a case people make against Dirk.
not to be bias. but im pretty sure last year if LAL, didnt have Kobe they dont win more games than the Bobcats.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yankshater213 @ Feb 1 2007, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>(THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL, BUT) Dirk could be putting up 35/15 for a 1st place team in the West, and someone like, I don't know Carmelo is putting up 25/5 for an 8th place team in the West, but is carrying them, and without him they'd be in last place or something. I'd vote for Melo.</div>Well, if there was a player who put up 35 and 15 or something even close to it, AND they led their team to the first place in the west, then I would bet my left nut that he would get the MVP. This years perdicament is really fuzzy...You have Dirk who is leading his team to the best record in the NBA, and he is getting around 25 and 10. You have Steve Nash, who has won it the last two years, and he is getting 20 and 11, and then Kobe who is leading his team to a very good record, and he is getting 28 or 29 and a good number of assits and rebounds. Now, I dont think Nash should get it because it would be ridiculous for a player to get it 3 years in a row. So to me, it would have to be down to the last two players. And IMO, since Dirk is leading his team to the best record in the NBA, he should get it. My reasoning is that he is still putting up great numbers, and his team is the best. Although I think Kobe is more valuable to his team, his team isnt doing as well. It really depends on what the people think the defeniton of a MVP is....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ Feb 1 2007, 07:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'll answer for yankshater and say that he was just using them as hypothetical players. Dirk isn't averaging 35/15 and Carmelo isn't carrying his team nor is he averaging 25-5. He wasn't suggesting he'd vote melo for MVP this year</div>Exactly, thanks.But it all depends on your interpretation of the award. Do you think its the best person on the best team? Or the guy who is most valuable to his team? I tend to side with the 2nd one, and the guy most valuable to his team, because that's the basis of the award, MOST VALUABLE Player.
It should be Kobe or Dirk. The Nash thing is getting old. Imagine what Dirk or Kobe could do if they were surrounded by the ridiculous talent that Nash has at his disposal.A player who plays great and helps his team to success despite the odds is the MVP. Not some pretty boy, or some media darling. It should go to the dude who truly busted his ass. Example: 2005-2006 MVP? It should have been Kobe.
In terms of how crappy his team is without him and how good it is with him, then you could make a case for T-Mac. This year 2-6 without him, and I believe 27-9 with him. Same with Nash, Wade, and others.But to me, an MVP consists of a few things:Be one of the top players in the league, the impact you make on your team compared to other stars, team record, stats, and intangibles (like historical significance like Kobe last year). To me you have to fit that criteria to be an MVP.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michael Bryant @ Feb 2 2007, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It should be Kobe or Dirk. The Nash thing is getting old. Imagine what Dirk or Kobe could do if they were surrounded by the ridiculous talent that Nash has at his disposal.A player who plays great and helps his team to success despite the odds is the MVP. Not some pretty boy, or some media darling. It should go to the dude who truly busted his ass. Example: 2005-2006 MVP? It should have been Kobe.</div>Both times Nash won, the Suns were not expected to do much. Look at his supporting cast once Amare went out...Dirk's was better. Nash kept the team going and instead of being a low playoff seed as expected he was the biggest reason why they went to the WCF with the injuries and the brand new team that they had, with no dominating 2nd options. I don't think he was the most deserving candidate last year, but he was a deserving candidate, one of the 4. Kobe was 4th in voting so it's not like Nash stole anything from him, if anything he stole it from the next two guys who actually had a chance to win had he not been there. The first year he was great. The Suns made one of the greatest turnarounds in the history of the league and even with the players they added they were still expected to be a 7-9 team in the West, but instead had the best record mostly because of him. He definitely deserved the first one.The MVP to me is a player who has great value to a team, but can take them to a high seed. Value to the team doesn't mean much to me if you have an average or bad team. That player should also be a top 5-7 player. I also think they should be a good all-around player, that's why it's mostlly the dominating big men that won it in the past.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yankshater213 @ Feb 1 2007, 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think the MVP is overrated, and I think this best player on best team stuff it horseshit. It should be the player whos value to his team exceeds the value of any other player in the NBA to their team. Obviously there are many ways to look at it, and many factors come into a decision. I personally do believe it is a "media" thing, and that a lot of the sh*t that happens is all the medias fault. Its a fuzzy definition of the award, but I defintiely think it should go to the MOST VALUABLE player, not the best player. (THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL, BUT) Dirk could be putting up 35/15 for a 1st place team in the West, and someone like, I don't know Carmelo is putting up 25/5 for an 8th place team in the West, but is carrying them, and without him they'd be in last place or something. I'd vote for Melo.</div>How do you define value then? Team Success has to play a large role in that defintion for it to be true. The problem with just looking at how bad a team would be without its star is that it doesn't consider how good they are with them. Dallas and Phoenix would make the playoffs w/o Dirk or Nash where as LA and Denver would not but Dirk and Nash make their teams championship contenders where Melo and Kobe do not.Suns + Nash/Dallas + Dirk = contendersSuns - Nash/ Dallas - Dirk = pretendersLakers + Kobe/ Nuggets + Melo = pretendersLakers - Kobe/ Nuggets - Melo = lotteryThe difference bettwen contender/pretender is > than the difference between pretender/lottery
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moses2121 @ Feb 1 2007, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You can't just go by who is the best player in the league I mean Steve Nash isn't the best player in the league but he is the most valuable to his team. You have to think if that one guy wasn't there then that team would not succeed like they are when they are having him. Steve Nash has been picked the last 2 years for his ability to create baskets for his teammates and he can also score at the same time. I mean averaging 20 points and 10 assists is huge for the Suns and would not be nearly as good w/o him, there is no point guard in the league that can do what Steve Nash does for the Suns.</div>so you can say the same about:kobe and lakersdirk and mavzlebron and cavzgilbert and wizardsgive kobe and arenas the same supporting cast, and dont tell me they cant lead those teams to a championship.. nash has marion and stoudamire, they're both all-stars.. and dont tell me nash made em that becaue they both are superstar palyers without nash.look at wat kobes doing with the team he has.. people were saying they ownt even make the playoffs or would get 8th place
I think an MVP is the player that stands out the most on a contending team. Sure you could score 50 PPG, but what's the point in it if your team sucks and your going to the lottery? Great players just don't lead their team in points. They lead their team to wins. This year it's Dirk and Nash. I thought Dirk was robbed last year myself so Dirk is my pick again this year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mixtapelive @ Feb 6 2007, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>so you can say the same about:kobe and lakersdirk and mavzlebron and cavzgilbert and wizardsgive kobe and arenas the same supporting cast, and dont tell me they cant lead those teams to a championship.. nash has marion and stoudamire, they're both all-stars.. and dont tell me nash made em that becaue they both are superstar palyers without nash.look at wat kobes doing with the team he has.. people were saying they ownt even make the playoffs or would get 8th place</div>They won't do as good if they replace Nash, especially if it's Arenas and his disgusting shot selection. They win because of their chemistry and any little thing can ruin that. They have success because no player on the team is selfish and the best player on the team cares more about helping his teammates than getting points himself. Nash can score 4 points a game and still have a huge effect on the game, none of those other guys would do it for us. Of course, I'd trade Nash for most of those players after this season because we need some younger guys here, but if we had those guys I doubt we would've gone any farther.
