1989G: Isiah Thomas / Vinnie JohnsonSG: Joe Dumars / John LongSF: Mark Aguirre / Dennis RodmanPF: Rick Mahorn / John SalleyC: Bill Laimbeer / James Edwards2004PG: Chauncey Billups / Lindsay HunterSG: Richard Hamilton / Mike JamesSF: Tayshaun Prince / Corliss Williamson / Darvin HamPF: Rasheed Wallace / Mehmet Okur / Darko MilicicC: Ben Wallace / Elden CampbellWhich team is better?
I think nostalgia always wins out in these contests, and I dislike this type of discussion as a whole. The older guys will always say "Bad Boys" and the younger crowd is gonna go with '04. However, to say no contest is a slap in the face to a team that won an NBA championship. Could Isiah guard Chauncey effectively in the post? Probably not. (Nothing against Isiah but Chauncey is a big, strong man for a point guard). Could Mark Aguirre guard Tayshaun, I doubt that very much, and if not who would? As GREAT of a defender as Joe D is, you can't rotate him to Tayshaun and leave who on Rip? Aguirre? Not possible. Sally on Tay or Rip? No. Your only real viable option for guarding Tayshaun would have to be Rodman I suppose, but he's still not nearly as fast as Tay, and Tay's ambidexterity gives him an advantage over most anyone when he's aggressive. On paper this is almost a nightmare for the Bad Boys. Sheed and Mahorn going against each other would be a great thing to watch, but let's face it. You can talk about Mahorn being a "bad ass" all day, the fact is Sheed's an all around better baller (When he wants to be). And Ben Wallace of 2004 vs. Bill Laimbeer of the bad boy era. I'd loooove to see Bill throw an elbow in Ben Wallace's face (Hi, motivation). Bill was a great and dominant player in the paint as well (and no doubt, infinitely more effective on the offensive end than Ben), but his best individual years weren't the championship seasons. Ben (of 2004, I dunno about today) is the only person on that list, on both teams, I've ever seen dominate or change the entire tide of a game so frequently without offense (I know, Rodman was a phenomenal defender and a freak on the glass, but he wasn't much of a shot blocker or on steals, and I dunno, I can't describe it but Ben was just ..Ben). Now, with all that said, it probably seems I'm quite biased towards the '04 team, but like I said, "on paper." The truth is you can't factor in all the intangibles. While I think overall the '04 team has the more talented squad and the advantage as far as match ups go, you can't factor in things like, Isiah's uncanny and ridiculous ability to take over a game at will, or whether or not your coach will even exploit said mismatches (which I felt Larry Brown and Flip always played against our mismatches, and it bugs the crap out of me to this day), or who shows up with their A game, or which role players come through in the clutch, or which unlikely hero shows up to save the day. My brain and the paper are telling me '04, but I can't help that gut feeling that the Bad Boys would find a way in the end. Sorry that got so ridiculously long, but it really got me thinkin and saying one thing leads to another, and the flood gates open. And hey, it's Sunday mornin, and Detroit Pistons Superbowl Sunday Mornin at that, followed by a Family Guy Marathon! I've got nothing to do all day but relax and think.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (urgeigh @ Feb 4 2007, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think nostalgia always wins out in these contests, and I dislike this type of discussion as a whole. The older guys will always say "Bad Boys" and the younger crowd is gonna go with '04. However, to say no contest is a slap in the face to a team that won an NBA championship. Could Isiah guard Chauncey effectively in the post? Probably not. (Nothing against Isiah but Chauncey is a big, strong man for a point guard). Could Mark Aguirre guard Tayshaun, I doubt that very much, and if not who would? As GREAT of a defender as Joe D is, you can't rotate him to Tayshaun and leave who on Rip? Aguirre? Not possible. Sally on Tay or Rip? No. Your only real viable option for guarding Tayshaun would have to be Rodman I suppose, but he's still not nearly as fast as Tay, and Tay's ambidexterity gives him an advantage over most anyone when he's aggressive. On paper this is almost a nightmare for the Bad Boys. Sheed and Mahorn going against each other would be a great thing to watch, but let's face it. You can talk about Mahorn being a "bad ass" all day, the fact is Sheed's an all around better baller (When he wants to be). And Ben Wallace of 2004 vs. Bill Laimbeer of the bad boy era. I'd loooove to see Bill throw an elbow in Ben Wallace's face (Hi, motivation). Bill was a great and dominant player in the paint as well (and no doubt, infinitely more effective on the offensive end than Ben), but his best individual years weren't the championship seasons. Ben (of 2004, I dunno about today) is the only person on that list, on both teams, I've ever seen dominate or change the entire tide of a game so frequently without offense (I know, Rodman was a phenomenal defender and a freak on the glass, but he wasn't much of a shot blocker or on steals, and I dunno, I can't describe it but Ben was just ..Ben). Now, with all that said, it probably seems I'm quite biased towards the '04 team, but like I said, "on paper." The truth is you can't factor in all the intangibles. While I think overall the '04 team has the more talented squad and the advantage as far as match ups go, you can't factor in things like, Isiah's uncanny and ridiculous ability to take over a game at will, or whether or not your coach will even exploit said mismatches (which I felt Larry Brown and Flip always played against our mismatches, and it bugs the crap out of me to this day), or who shows up with their A game, or which role players come through in the clutch, or which unlikely hero shows up to save the day. My brain and the paper are telling me '04, but I can't help that gut feeling that the Bad Boys would find a way in the end. Sorry that got so ridiculously long, but it really got me thinkin and saying one thing leads to another, and the flood gates open. And hey, it's Sunday mornin, and Detroit Pistons Superbowl Sunday Mornin at that, followed by a Family Guy Marathon! I've got nothing to do all day but relax and think.</div>+1 for Piston fans!Wow - awesome write up, and I loved reading it. I really wish you would stick around and post consistantly that was great.Regarding the write-up:I totally agree with you - most older folk tend to side with the bad boys while the younger guys tend to go with the 04' guys. That's natural - but like you said when you look at it on paper the starters for the 04' just seem to win their personal matchups; but that's not what it's all about. You mentioned the starter's intangibles; but you forgot to mention the bench of the badboys - they were deeper than the 04 group. Also - winning personal matchups really doesn't prove anything - you can site the Lakers vs Pistons in 04 - whenever you went through and looked at the individual matchups the Lakers win on paper - but look what happened.Not really much to say - you covered everything really.Again PLEEEEASEEE stay - you are awesome.
These teams are realy similar. I'm sure Chauncy could post-up Isiah. I'm sure Rasheed would shoot rainbows all day over Mahorn. I'm sure Isiah and Joe D would probably take a much younger Chauncy and Rip to school. I wouldn't be suprised that if these guys played 10 games, they would go 5-5.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (urgeigh @ Feb 4 2007, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think nostalgia always wins out in these contests, and I dislike this type of discussion as a whole. The older guys will always say "Bad Boys" and the younger crowd is gonna go with '04. However, to say no contest is a slap in the face to a team that won an NBA championship. Could Isiah guard Chauncey effectively in the post? Probably not. (Nothing against Isiah but Chauncey is a big, strong man for a point guard). Could Mark Aguirre guard Tayshaun, I doubt that very much, and if not who would? As GREAT of a defender as Joe D is, you can't rotate him to Tayshaun and leave who on Rip? Aguirre? Not possible. Sally on Tay or Rip? No. Your only real viable option for guarding Tayshaun would have to be Rodman I suppose, but he's still not nearly as fast as Tay, and Tay's ambidexterity gives him an advantage over most anyone when he's aggressive. On paper this is almost a nightmare for the Bad Boys. Sheed and Mahorn going against each other would be a great thing to watch, but let's face it. You can talk about Mahorn being a "bad ass" all day, the fact is Sheed's an all around better baller (When he wants to be). And Ben Wallace of 2004 vs. Bill Laimbeer of the bad boy era. I'd loooove to see Bill throw an elbow in Ben Wallace's face (Hi, motivation). Bill was a great and dominant player in the paint as well (and no doubt, infinitely more effective on the offensive end than Ben), but his best individual years weren't the championship seasons. Ben (of 2004, I dunno about today) is the only person on that list, on both teams, I've ever seen dominate or change the entire tide of a game so frequently without offense (I know, Rodman was a phenomenal defender and a freak on the glass, but he wasn't much of a shot blocker or on steals, and I dunno, I can't describe it but Ben was just ..Ben). Now, with all that said, it probably seems I'm quite biased towards the '04 team, but like I said, "on paper." The truth is you can't factor in all the intangibles. While I think overall the '04 team has the more talented squad and the advantage as far as match ups go, you can't factor in things like, Isiah's uncanny and ridiculous ability to take over a game at will, or whether or not your coach will even exploit said mismatches (which I felt Larry Brown and Flip always played against our mismatches, and it bugs the crap out of me to this day), or who shows up with their A game, or which role players come through in the clutch, or which unlikely hero shows up to save the day. My brain and the paper are telling me '04, but I can't help that gut feeling that the Bad Boys would find a way in the end. Sorry that got so ridiculously long, but it really got me thinkin and saying one thing leads to another, and the flood gates open. And hey, it's Sunday mornin, and Detroit Pistons Superbowl Sunday Mornin at that, followed by a Family Guy Marathon! I've got nothing to do all day but relax and think.</div>Ballin'!Man, for that post, I'll vote you for MVP. I want to see you around here more often.To be honest, I would rather put Rasheed on Laimbeer, since Laimbeer can shoot and spread the floor. Rasheed is more mobile than Ben. Ben Wallace vs. Rick Mahorn... :worthy:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (urgeigh @ Feb 4 2007, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think nostalgia always wins out in these contests, and I dislike this type of discussion as a whole. The older guys will always say "Bad Boys" and the younger crowd is gonna go with '04. However, to say no contest is a slap in the face to a team that won an NBA championship. Could Isiah guard Chauncey effectively in the post? Probably not. (Nothing against Isiah but Chauncey is a big, strong man for a point guard). Could Mark Aguirre guard Tayshaun, I doubt that very much, and if not who would? As GREAT of a defender as Joe D is, you can't rotate him to Tayshaun and leave who on Rip? Aguirre? Not possible. Sally on Tay or Rip? No. Your only real viable option for guarding Tayshaun would have to be Rodman I suppose, but he's still not nearly as fast as Tay, and Tay's ambidexterity gives him an advantage over most anyone when he's aggressive. On paper this is almost a nightmare for the Bad Boys. Sheed and Mahorn going against each other would be a great thing to watch, but let's face it. You can talk about Mahorn being a "bad ass" all day, the fact is Sheed's an all around better baller (When he wants to be). And Ben Wallace of 2004 vs. Bill Laimbeer of the bad boy era. I'd loooove to see Bill throw an elbow in Ben Wallace's face (Hi, motivation). Bill was a great and dominant player in the paint as well (and no doubt, infinitely more effective on the offensive end than Ben), but his best individual years weren't the championship seasons. Ben (of 2004, I dunno about today) is the only person on that list, on both teams, I've ever seen dominate or change the entire tide of a game so frequently without offense (I know, Rodman was a phenomenal defender and a freak on the glass, but he wasn't much of a shot blocker or on steals, and I dunno, I can't describe it but Ben was just ..Ben). Now, with all that said, it probably seems I'm quite biased towards the '04 team, but like I said, "on paper." The truth is you can't factor in all the intangibles. While I think overall the '04 team has the more talented squad and the advantage as far as match ups go, you can't factor in things like, Isiah's uncanny and ridiculous ability to take over a game at will, or whether or not your coach will even exploit said mismatches (which I felt Larry Brown and Flip always played against our mismatches, and it bugs the crap out of me to this day), or who shows up with their A game, or which role players come through in the clutch, or which unlikely hero shows up to save the day. My brain and the paper are telling me '04, but I can't help that gut feeling that the Bad Boys would find a way in the end. Sorry that got so ridiculously long, but it really got me thinkin and saying one thing leads to another, and the flood gates open. And hey, it's Sunday mornin, and Detroit Pistons Superbowl Sunday Mornin at that, followed by a Family Guy Marathon! I've got nothing to do all day but relax and think.</div>Awesome post, and welcome to the boards. However, I would have to disagree and say that the '04 squad would win. There is much more versatility with the '04 team, for example we could run Tayshaun as the kind of point forward/point guard that he plays sometimes with Chauncey and Rip running the wings or posting up, and as urgeigh (lol sweet name) stated Isiah would have his hands full with Chauncey in the post. I just love the match up advantages that the '04 team has, and you have to factor in the bench, which was more superior as well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (urgeigh @ Feb 4 2007, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think nostalgia always wins out in these contests, and I dislike this type of discussion as a whole. The older guys will always say "Bad Boys" and the younger crowd is gonna go with '04. However, to say no contest is a slap in the face to a team that won an NBA championship. Could Isiah guard Chauncey effectively in the post? Probably not. (Nothing against Isiah but Chauncey is a big, strong man for a point guard). Could Mark Aguirre guard Tayshaun, I doubt that very much, and if not who would? As GREAT of a defender as Joe D is, you can't rotate him to Tayshaun and leave who on Rip? Aguirre? Not possible. Sally on Tay or Rip? No. Your only real viable option for guarding Tayshaun would have to be Rodman I suppose, but he's still not nearly as fast as Tay, and Tay's ambidexterity gives him an advantage over most anyone when he's aggressive. On paper this is almost a nightmare for the Bad Boys. Sheed and Mahorn going against each other would be a great thing to watch, but let's face it. You can talk about Mahorn being a "bad ass" all day, the fact is Sheed's an all around better baller (When he wants to be). And Ben Wallace of 2004 vs. Bill Laimbeer of the bad boy era. I'd loooove to see Bill throw an elbow in Ben Wallace's face (Hi, motivation). Bill was a great and dominant player in the paint as well (and no doubt, infinitely more effective on the offensive end than Ben), but his best individual years weren't the championship seasons. Ben (of 2004, I dunno about today) is the only person on that list, on both teams, I've ever seen dominate or change the entire tide of a game so frequently without offense (I know, Rodman was a phenomenal defender and a freak on the glass, but he wasn't much of a shot blocker or on steals, and I dunno, I can't describe it but Ben was just ..Ben). Now, with all that said, it probably seems I'm quite biased towards the '04 team, but like I said, "on paper." The truth is you can't factor in all the intangibles. While I think overall the '04 team has the more talented squad and the advantage as far as match ups go, you can't factor in things like, Isiah's uncanny and ridiculous ability to take over a game at will, or whether or not your coach will even exploit said mismatches (which I felt Larry Brown and Flip always played against our mismatches, and it bugs the crap out of me to this day), or who shows up with their A game, or which role players come through in the clutch, or which unlikely hero shows up to save the day. My brain and the paper are telling me '04, but I can't help that gut feeling that the Bad Boys would find a way in the end. Sorry that got so ridiculously long, but it really got me thinkin and saying one thing leads to another, and the flood gates open. And hey, it's Sunday mornin, and Detroit Pistons Superbowl Sunday Mornin at that, followed by a Family Guy Marathon! I've got nothing to do all day but relax and think.</div>Very nice write up, but your analysis is a little biased. Im 31 so I was around for both teams. The problem with this arguement is which style of play would you use. Back in '89', they let you get away with alot more physically than they do now. So it is tough to compare. Just knowing how all 3 of our guards from '89' would light up the '04' guards makes me think they would win. There is no way Billups could do anything to slow Isiah down. He would get to the rack with easy, drawing Ben being able to dish off or get the easy layup. Same with Joe. His shooting and ballhandling would be way too much for Rip to handle. And as for Tay, Aguire was a strong bodies guy that Tay would have a hard time backing down. I agree Tay would win that matchup but you would definitely see Chuck Daly playing Rodman waaaaay more. And trust me, Tay would be embarrassingly shut down. Rodman wasnt defensive player of the year for no reason. His lateral quickness would be way quicker than Tays. Mahorn, with that huge body would be tossing poor Ben all over the court, and although Ben is the man, he would have a very hard time grabbing rebounds against Horn and Laimbeer. Laimbeer, although he couldnt jump much higher than a piece of paper, was king of boxing out and positioning and the king of flops. Sheed would be so messed up and frustrated by the physicalness of both players. The Bad Boys were so mentally tough, and so strong defensively that '04' would be in a whole world of hurt. And I havent even gotten to the bench. Vinnie/Salley/Edwards along with Rodman. Wow! Too many weapons. Ask Mike Jordan how well he did for all those years.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pistonfan11 @ Feb 7 2007, 07:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Awesome post, and welcome to the boards. I would have to agree that the '04 squad would win. There is much more versatility with the '04 team, for example we could run Tayshaun as the kind of point forward/point guard that he plays sometimes with Chauncey and Rip running the wings or posting up, and as urgeigh (lol sweet name) stated Isiah would have his hands full with Chauncey in the post. I just love the match up advantages that the '04 team has, and you have to factor in the bench, which was more superior as well.</div> He said the 89 squad would win.
