What happened to Harkless?

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Rastapopoulos, Feb 6, 2017.

  1. BigGameDamian

    BigGameDamian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,082
    Likes Received:
    13,272
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And why the hell shouldn't he? After all he is coming from a development Blazers team. Maybe he's ready to move on to the big boy teams!
     
  2. Rastapopoulos

    Rastapopoulos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    41,818
    Likes Received:
    26,158
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Ballin'
    Meanwhile, Aminu's shot, which always looks so much worse than Harkless's, has crawled back to semi-respectable territory (12-37 over past ten games).
     
  3. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Why you no hire big man coach?

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    19,094
    Likes Received:
    22,763
    Trophy Points:
    113
    He's pouting because he isn't starting. Pulled the same shit last year. He only plays his hardest when he's starting. He gets benched, he loses focus and pouts.

    Hey Mo, want to start? Try playing like you deserve to be. It's not like we have a stacked roster full of all stars playing ahead of you. You don't even need to be an average NBA player to crack this starting line up, just don't totally suck (like you are right now) and the job will be yours.

    BNM
     
    UKRAINEFAN and Dougnsalem like this.
  4. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    23,207
    Likes Received:
    15,667
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Harkless missed a few games and lost his starting job. His last 4 games off the bench after coming back he has been
    3-6, 1-5, 5-10, 5-9...averaging around 22 minutes a game. That is fine for a bench player. He is just not versatile enough to be a starter.
     
  5. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Why you no hire big man coach?

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    19,094
    Likes Received:
    22,763
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You could say the same thing about 87% of our roster. Herein lies the problem...

    BNM
     
    Dougnsalem likes this.
  6. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    23,207
    Likes Received:
    15,667
    Trophy Points:
    113
    OK I had to get out my calculator, but yes that would be correct.
     
    Boob-No-More likes this.
  7. Strenuus

    Strenuus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    50,484
    Likes Received:
    35,784
    Trophy Points:
    113
    :biglaugh:
     
  8. ripcityboy

    ripcityboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    12,934
    Likes Received:
    10,797
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    self employed
    Location:
    pdx, or, usa.
    The comedian/podcaster Marc Maron used to have this great joke about the Devil. A crappy musician make a deal with the devil for fame and success and signs his soul away, the Devil comes back the next night at midnight and says, "Sorry dude, I did the best I could but you're just not talented enough. Here's your soul back and don't tell anyone about this." That's kind of the problem with a lot of our lineup.... they are just not talented enough (Harkless included.) The expectations we had for them both collectively and individually, were too high.
     
  9. OneLifeToLive

    OneLifeToLive Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,620
    Likes Received:
    517
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I feel bad for him because he was one of the guys that came out to play from day one. Some of his teammates didn't. I think some of the problems this team has is it has players that don't want to be here and or don't like their roles. And they're not focused on whatever goal they have. Now It's starting to mestastasize to the rest of the team.

    To me there is lots of paralylls between this team and the 14-15 team. That team was disappointing after a nice post season push. This one is headed that same direction.
     
    BBert likes this.
  10. Blazers Roy

    Blazers Roy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2015
    Messages:
    2,621
    Likes Received:
    2,909
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Jerusalem, Israel
    He's not pouting, that's just how his face looks.
     
  11. stampedehero

    stampedehero Make Your Day, a Doobies Day Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    12,451
    Likes Received:
    9,269
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Part Time Building Inspector
    Location:
    NJ
    He gets paid like a pro and he should earn from the bench or the starting lineup.
     
  12. Mediocre Man

    Mediocre Man Mr. SportsTwo

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    44,781
    Likes Received:
    27,539
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Injured his calf being the only player trying on defense
     
    Strenuus, Darkwebs and BBert like this.
  13. BBert

    BBert Weasels Ripped My Flesh

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    26,635
    Likes Received:
    20,324
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Poster Boy
    Location:
    Blazerlandia
    Edit: wrong thread ;)
     
  14. SheedSoNasty

    SheedSoNasty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    4,983
    Likes Received:
    5,839
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Looks like his playing time is about to go up now that Turner fractured his hand.
     
  15. dviss1

    dviss1 Emcee Referee

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    29,602
    Likes Received:
    27,494
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You don't know what's going on in practice...
     
  16. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Why you no hire big man coach?

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    19,094
    Likes Received:
    22,763
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No one outside of Dame, C.J. and Plumlee deserve to start on this team.

    We have to start someone at the 3 and 4 spots, but we don't have a single player at either spot that have distinguished themselves as even average NBA players. Sure, some of them have specific skills (Crabbe shooting, Turner passing and posting up smaller players, Aminu defense), but we don't have a single player at either spot playing well enough to be a starter on a playoff team - which is one very big reason why we aren't a playoff team.

    We need more generalists, players who are above average at multiple things (like offense AND defense) at these positions, not specialists who are only good at one thing.

    BNM
     
  17. blue9

    blue9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    10,729
    Likes Received:
    7,169
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's exactly what Harkless is. He is an average starting SF. Much like Klay being an "elite" SG, Harkless' status as an average SF says a lot about the talent pool in the NBA. But he does everything pretty well, but nothing great.
     
  18. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Why you no hire big man coach?

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    19,094
    Likes Received:
    22,763
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Agreed about the talent pool, however, Harkless is part of the problem. He is a below average starting SF. The SF position is top heavy, but once you get beyond the Durants, LeBrons and Kawhis, there are still a lot of other staring SFs better than Harkless.

    He's how Harkless' averages compare to the league average for starting small forwards:

    Scoring:
    Mo Harkless = 10.6 ppg
    League Average = 14.9 ppg
    Difference = -3.7
    Percent of League Average = 71.%
    Rank = 21

    Rebounding:
    Mo Harkless = 4.6 rpg
    League Average = 5.1 rpg
    Difference = -0.5
    Percent of League Average = 89.4%
    Rank = 19

    Assists:
    Mo Harkless = 1.0 apg
    League Average = 2.3 apg
    Difference = -1.3
    Percent of League Average = 43.9%
    Rank = 26

    Steals:
    Mo Harkless = 1.1 spg
    League Average = 1.1 spg

    Difference = +0.0
    Percent of League Average = 100.0%
    Rank = 15

    Blocks:
    Mo Harkless = 0.9 bpg
    League Average = 0.5 bpg

    Difference = 0.4
    Percent of League Average = 175.3%
    Rank = 5

    PER:
    Mo Harkless = 12.8
    League Average = 15.7
    Difference = -2.9
    Percent of League Average = 81.7%
    Rank = 20

    All together, that makes Mo Harkless about the 2oth best starting SF in the league, with an average production of about 82% of league average for starting SFs. He's a significantly worse than average scorer, a worse than average rebounder, one of the worst passers at his position in the league.

    He does fare better in the basic defensive stats. He gets an average number of steals, and BLKs are the one basic stat where he is well above average for his position. Still, there is more to defense than blocking shots. He's clearly several notches below the LeBrons, Kawhis, Jimmy Butlers and Paul Georges defensively, and there are also several defensive specialists (Sefolosha, Roberson, etc.) that block fewer shots, but are much better defenders. I'm willing to concede that Harkless may be average for his position defensively, but it's hard to say for sure with him playing for one of the worst defenses in the league.

    Harkless has a reasonable contract and he's still young. He started the year shooting well from 3-point range, but is now at .333 and falling. He has basically regressed to where it was last year and is pretty close to his career norms. So, he's not quite 24, but also not really improving much. Even an average SF would be an upgrade.

    The problem is both of our starting forward positions are below average. I know PER isn't everything, but out of the seven guys we have that can cover those two position, not a single one of them has a PER above 13. They are:

    Harkless - 12.8
    Turner - 12.2
    Davis - 11.1
    Crabbe - 10.9
    Aminu - 9.9
    Vonleh - 8.7
    Leonard - 8.4

    Only one of them shoots above league average and that's ALL he does. Crabbe is an OK 6th man, but not starter quality. We need to upgrade both of these position, get a reliable third scoring option, better rebounding and better defense.

    I know last year we had the worst front court in the league - this year, it's worse.

    BNM

     
    H.C. likes this.
  19. blue9

    blue9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    10,729
    Likes Received:
    7,169
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Given a smattering of stats that's still roughly an average starting SF. However, I contend that your interpretation of the stats you used to show he's below average is misguided.

    Rebounding: He's half a rebound off of league average. On a poor rebounding team. Yet he ranks high as an Offensive Rebounder (3-way tie for 4th best).

    Scoring: Yeah, he scores less than league average - a league average that's skewed by the likes of LBJ, Durant, George, Leonard, Giannis, Butler (SG playing SF), and Melo. However, I doubt his 47% FG% is below league average. Hell - I even bothered to look it up and he sports the 8th best FG%. He ranks at 22 for PPG, but he also ranks at 22 for FGA - I hardly think the evidence points to him being a below average scorer. If anything it says he's underutilized. There's no reason he couldn't be a Wilson Chandler or Tobias Harris-level SF if given a few more attempts - he scores fantastically when someone hits him on a cut to the hoop.

    Assists: It's not his role to get assists. I'm not saying it should be - it's not a strength. But to call him "one of the worst passes at his position" is a poor interpretation of his APG.

    Also, while I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of NBA rosters, I seem to recall several teams playing a PF or SG in place of a SF. Jimmy Butler, for example.
     
  20. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Why you no hire big man coach?

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    19,094
    Likes Received:
    22,763
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I didn't count Giannis as a SF. I used Jabari Parker.

    Not so many this year. Since he left MIA, LeBron is back to playing SF. Paul George is back to playing SF. So is Carmelo. For a change, most SFs are back to playing their actual position this year.

    And if you say the scoring average is skewed by the likes of Durant, LeBron, etc., it's also skewed downwards by the likes of the Luke Babbits, Mbah a Moutes, Andre Robersons and Solomon Hills of the world. There are 5 starting small forwards currently averaging 6.6 or fewer ppg.

    Anyway you slice it, Harkless is below average in production for an NBA starting small forward, and he's also below the median. He's in with a group in that 17 - 22 range. Most metrics would put him right around 20th out of 30 small forwards. I don't know any that would put him above the median (higher the 15th).

    BNM
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017

Share This Page